So I've owned a Cary SLP98P with a CAD 120S MKii. I actually liked the SLP98P better than the 120S MKii. I found the amp to be noisy (hum issues) and sonically it didn't dig very deep and I found the bass to be flabby and lack authority. All negatives associated with the 120S MKii were immediately cured (and then some) when I replaced it with a Pass XA30.8 which would be my suggestion.
I ended up also selling the SLP98P but only because I felt it's phono stage was lacking. For about $3500 used I would strongly endorse a Pass XA30.8 over the Cary options. |
Thanks. Kind of feedback I was after. |
I heard the 98 at a dealer powering a Parasound a21 and it sounded good- slightly better than the Cary 200.2- but I felt the '98 was the bottleneck, not the amps. the sound was too thick and sluggish.
perhaps tube rolling would fix that. |
Avanti1960 thanks for the feedback. So far my experience with it has been great. I am using the Primaluna Dialog 5 Power amp and I might just be used to that. Not a solid state fan as of yet so the quickness is nothing I am used to. I do like the great mids and air I am hearing right now however. |
John Atkinson’s measurements of your preamp indicate that while it has a fairly low output impedance at mid and high frequencies its output impedance rises to a very high 6800 ohms at 20 Hz. That would not be a good match for the 22K input impedance of the 200.2 ES amplifier. And in fact it wouldn’t surprise me if the thick and sluggish sound Avanti1960 described as resulting from a pairing of the SLP-98P with a Parasound A21 (33K unbalanced input impedance) was contributed to by the interaction of those impedances, and/or by other effects on the output stage of the preamp resulting from loading it too heavily. IMO you should look for a power amp having an input impedance of no less than 47K. (Your present amp and the other Cary amp you referred to have input impedances of 100K). Also, JA’s statement in the preamp review that the rise to 6.8K "will prematurely and audibly roll off the bass with power amplifiers having an input impedance of much less than 20k ohms" is much too lenient IMO. I say that in part because the result with load impedances that are significantly higher than 20K, as well as lower than 20K, will be undesirable phase shifts in the bass region, in addition to the small amount of frequency response rolloff he focuses on. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
Wow almarg! Thanks for the info. I had no idea. Heard lots of good things about this Preamp. Should I trade it in or look for a different power amp. Any suggestions?
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I am surprised that the 2 power amps Cary referred to me will not work with my Preamp since they are both made by the same company and should work together. Confusing stuff. Maybe I should just get an integrated and be done with all this confusing matching.
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Heard lots of good things about this Preamp. Should I trade it in or look for a different power amp. Any suggestions? I have no experience with Cary or PrimaLuna products, but if I were to hazard a guess as to which of the two components is the weaker link **in your particular application** I would think the amp is the likeliest candidate. The reason I say that is that a number of PrimaLuna amps have unusually high output impedances, and if (as I suspect) your Dialogue Five is one of them that would make it a less than optimal match for the low (4 ohm nominal) impedance of your Ryan speakers (and perhaps for the Triangle speakers as well, although I couldn’t find much information about them). For example, in JA’s measurements of the Dialogue Premium amplifier the following statement appears: The output impedance varied widely, from an extraordinarily high 15 ohms with EL34s and 14 ohms with KT120s from the 16 ohm tap, both tubes in Ultralinear mode, to 2.4 ohms with EL34s and 2.15 ohms with KT120s, both tubes in Triode mode, from the 4 ohm tap. The output impedance from the 8 ohm tap was lowest with both tubes in Triode mode, at 4.6 ohms (EL34s) and 3.9 ohms (KT120s). Changing to Ultralinear mode raised these impedances to 7.9 and 7.4 ohms, respectively. With these high output impedances, the DiaLogue Premium’s frequency response will be altered to a significant extent by the Ohm’s law interaction between these impedances and the manner in which the loudspeaker’s impedance changes with frequency. The gray trace in fig.1, for example, shows the amplifier’s response with Ultralinear KT120s driving our standard simulated loudspeaker. The variations are a very audible +4.5/–4dB. Even with the lowest output impedance, with KT120s in Triode mode driving the load from the 4 ohm tap, the variations are still ±1.2dB (fig.2), which will be audible.
Also, if you do choose to replace the amp I believe you would be very happy with the XA30.8 that was recommended by Three_Easy_Payments. I say that as a very happy owner of the somewhat less powerful and less expensive Pass XA25. Both amps, btw, are **far** more powerful than their published power ratings suggest. (Avoid the XA30.5, btw, as its input impedance is too low to be a good match for your preamp). Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
P.S: I’ll add to what I said in my previous post that an amp having particularly high output impedance also, by definition, has a particularly low damping factor. That may also result in your amp being a less than optimal match for one or more of your speakers.
Regards,
-- Al
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dylanfan,
I paired my Cary SLP-98 tube preamplifier with the following amplifiers, successfully:
Quicksilver Mono 120 (my current monoblock tube amps)
Cary V12R (stereo tube amp)
Cary SA-200.2 (stereo solid state amp)
Inspire Hot Rod (stereo tube amp)
All combinations sounded nice for their perspective power ranges and related speakers used. My feedback is not from specs, from real use.
re: Pass Labs. Nelson indicated to me a year ago he has several customers running the SLP-98 tube preamps with his .5 and .8 version PASS amps. He indicated this is a popular combo as well, fwiw.
The SLP-98 preamp combo with the Cary SA-200.2 was very nice, smooth, dynamic, nice sound stage, plenty of power. With the right Interconnects, it was a nice combination for solid state in my setup.
With your Ryan 630 speakers and Nomex drivers (I’ve built something similar), you could pair them up with a nice Rel subwoofer for added bottom end and spend your money on a "musical" amplifier, tube or solid state. I’d guess you are searching for something more, what?
A few come to mind:
Tube: Quicksilver Mono 60s (tube), Quicksilver Mono 120s (tube)
SS: Cary SA-200.2, Pass X30.8, PASS X60.8, Van Alstine FET 400, Parasound JC5, PS Audio BHK 250.
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Your preamp is sensitive to tube, cap, and interconnect changes.
Two questions:
-What brand (new or NOS) tubes are installed in your SLP98 now?
-What do you not like about the Primaluna Dialogue 5 pairing now?
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I thanks for all the info guys! I like my Dialog 5 Power amp with the Cary Preamp. To me it sounds great. I have just heard the synergy of a Cary Preamp with a Cary amplifier would be a logical move. Cary has a 30% off 30th anniversary sale so I thought it would be a good time to give it a try. I had the moving coil phono option added along with every upgrade and better tubes. Trying to simplify and getting ready to retire in a year or so so I thought I would put together a good system before I have to cut back. I really like the tube sound. Heard nothing but great things about Pass Labs and even though not tubes it might be a great option. I can live with any of the equipment I have but always looking for a little better.
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A further thought regarding the XA30.8: Given the small size of your present room, depending on how well it is air-conditioned the heat that would be introduced by the 400 watt AC power consumption of the XA30.8 may be an issue. The XA25 I use may be preferable in that regard, as its specified power consumption is only 240 watts, while according to Stereophile’s measurements it can nevertheless supply 80 and 130 watts into 8 and 4 ohms respectively.
Your PrimaLuna amp has a specified power consumption of 232 watts, but I believe it is biased to operate in class AB, while the two Pass amps operate in class A aside from occasional instances when high volume dynamic peaks in the music may cause them to transition to AB. Consequently your PrimaLuna amp is probably consuming significantly less than 232 watts most of the time, depending on the dynamics of the music, while the two Pass amps consume essentially the same amount of power (400 watts and 240 watts, respectively) most of the time. And the amount of heat introduced into the room will be proportional to those power consumption numbers.
Good luck. Regards,
-- Al
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Thanks for taking all the time Al to help me. That was my concern with the Cary tube amp and the Pass Labs amp and why are was considering the solid state Cary amp. The room is small and in the summer it gets pretty hot in Oklahoma. The smaller Pass amp is a good call. Thank you! |
@dylanfan
The little XA25 amp is pretty sweet too. A few buddies with Cary tube amps also have the XA25 and flip back and forth for variety. If your Ryan speakers are truly 85db, something else to consider about efficiency - depending how loud you turn it up for in-room our outside-of-room listening. In a small room, and lower listening levels it might be okay. I can say the SA-200.2 I had before did not run that warm and does run in Class A mode in lower wattage. I don't recall the limits. Plan on buying some better copper interconnect cables with these SS amps IF you like a softer sound, particularly if you are running brighter tubes in your SLP-98 preamp. |
I talked to Mark at Reno Hi Fi this afternoon and he recommended the 150.8 Power amp so I am researching a little about it. Class AB so it won’t get so hot in my small room and gives me more watts for my more inefficient speakers. A really nice conversation and very informative. It should mate well with my Cary Preamp. |
@dylanfan
I talked to Mark at Reno Hi Fi this afternoon and he recommended the 150.8 Power amp so I am researching a little about it. Class AB so it won’t get so hot in my small room and gives me more watts for my more inefficient speakers. A really nice conversation and very informative. It should mate well with my Cary Preamp dylanfan, have you heard your Ryan 630 speakers with any other amp than a Cary CAD 120S? |
I have heard the Ryan speakers with my Primaluna Dialogue 5 Power amp. A Rogue Atlas Magnum II Power amp. McIntosh 2200 Power amp. Peachtree Nova 220Se. I just got the Cary SLP98 preamp and thought I would get in if their power amps either solid state or tubes. I like tubes best but I have a grandson and thought maybe solid state would be safer with him around. The tubes get hot. Especially the Rogue. |
@dylanfan
I have heard the Ryan speakers with my Primaluna Dialogue 5 Power amp. A Rogue Atlas Magnum II Power amp. McIntosh 2200 Power amp. Peachtree Nova 220Se. I just got the Cary SLP98 preamp and thought I would get in if their power amps either solid state or tubes. I like tubes best but I have a grandson and thought maybe solid state would be safer with him around. The tubes get hot. Especially the Rogue. That’s a pretty good sample of different/type/sound amplifiers you have there. If you have EL34 output tubes in your PD Dialogue 5, the sound is likely smoother and a tad more laid back (my personal preference for revealing speakers) compared to some of the solid state and hybrid amps you noted above. Also, if you make the move, I may have a friend who may be interested in your PD D5 if you decide to part with it. Your Preference: Of all the amps you noted above, including the McIntosh 2200 -or- your own PL Dialogue 5, is there one of these amps that stuck out to your preference (tonally) more than others (with your Ryan 630 speakers)? |
Yes. The Dialog 5 does. I prefer it with KT88 tubes over the kt120 tubes. I like the el34s but like a little more power with the Ryan speakers. I have some kt77s I might try as well. The new EVO400 Primaluna has more power and el34 tubes so I might be looking at that too. I som’t Need to change just thought the Cary might work a little better with my Cary SLP98. |
@dylanfan
Yes. The Dialog 5 does. I prefer it with KT88 tubes over the kt120 tubes. I like the el34s but like a little more power with the Ryan speakers. I have some kt77s I might try as well. The new EVO400 Primaluna has more power and el34 tubes so I might be looking at that too. I som’t Need to change just thought the Cary might work a little better with my Cary SLP98. @dylanfan, Yes, agree about GLKT88s vs. TSKT120s. All circuit dependent of course, yet I’d guess it sounds pretty nice now with KT88s... Why is it you believe you can do better than your PL D5 with KT88s? Also, now wondering how much tube rolling you’ve done so far with your existing preamp and existing amplifier. I ask only because there may be other areas of tuning (with your existing preamp and and amp gear) before buying another amp. Are you looking for more/less clarity? More or softer punch? Larger or more focused soundstage? More bass or more neutral bass? More or less top end detail? Or, just more power for more loudness? i.e. After two years with the same preamp setup - I wanted to try some changes in different components to see where differences COULD be realized with in-depth focus using my existing preamp/amps. Kept myself from changing amps again with helpful input and (reminder) advice from good audio friends. I just spent the past 120 days trying different input tubes in my SLP-98 and input tubes in my mono amps, different tubes in the DAC, different coupling caps in DAC, different (loaner) interconnects between streamer to DAC, and different interconnects between source/DAC, different interconnects to Preamp, AND different interconnects to both mono amps. Tunable tone and sound stage in a sense. Same preamp, same amps - sounds notably different. Results: larger and wider sound stage, less harsh yet details coming through, more musical and fun to listen to now. One small step at a time and learning "patience" is challenging and can be very rewarding. Have you tried really good vintage input and driver tubes in your preamp or amp yet? If not, you are just getting started :) PL D5 Amp: Tube Compliment: 2 - 12AX7, 2 - 12AU7, 4 - KT88? CAD SLP-98 Preamp: 4 - 6SN7s? |
I like the Dialogue 5 fine. Have some Gold Lion KT77s I have not tried yet. I like the Primaluna KT88s pretty well actually. Just got an itch to get a matching power amp to my new Cary Preamp. |
@dylanfan
12-08-2019 5:54pm
I like the Dialogue 5 fine. Have some Gold Lion KT77s I have not tried yet. I like the Primaluna KT88s pretty well actually. Just got an itch to get a matching power amp to my new Cary Preamp. Ahhh, gotcha! Know the itch feeling well...maybe that's why I shared I did this too - went and got the nice SA-200.2, almost bought a ".8" version PASS amp, and then missed my tube amps for their unparalleled three dimensional sound. Tried a few stereo tube amps in between. Then transformer drool kicked in. Had to buy tube mono block amps to finally be done. While they are not same vendor matching amps to my keeper SLP-98 preamp, the preamp sure compliments them nicely with some good tube matching. Enjoy the journey! :) |
The sa200.2 is appealing the me. Solid state high powered and cooler running. I am afraid I will miss my tube power amp even with the SLP98 preamp. You obviously missed the tube sound. Was there a big difference? The subtly and the air of tubes is hard for me to get rid of. Had a McIntosh 7900 Integrated and could not get rid of it quick enough. This stuff is confusing. I am happy with what I have just thought a Cary thrown into the mix would be great synergy. |
@dylanfan
...You obviously missed the tube sound. Was there a big difference? The subtly and the air of tubes is hard for me to get rid of...
Yes. I'd used solid state for 35 years. Thought I could go back to it pairing up my SLP-98. It was good but I never found myself engaged in the music in the same manner as any of my former upgraded tube amps. The only way to know is to try it with your system and speakers. |
@dylanfan
12-08-2019 5:54pm
I like the Dialogue 5 fine. Have some Gold Lion KT77s I have not tried yet. I like the Primaluna KT88s pretty well actually. Just got an itch to get a matching power amp to my new Cary Preamp. dylanfan, - How did the KT77s go for ya in your PrimaLuna tube amp?
- Are you still on the hunt for a matching SS amp to your SLP-98?
Gotta say, I re-tubed with different 6SN7 tubes in my Cary SLP-98 preamp and went with 1960s Mullard 12AU7 input tubes in my Quicksilver Monoblock 120 tube amplifiers (with KT150 output tubes) and the result has been very rewarding. Manually turned bias down, amps run cooler, with nice smooth-musical-textural sound. Great match. Maybe you can try some sort of custom cage cover to protect your amps from the little ones. |
