The 'Link' if scrolled through will show the various Trade Names used throughout the Globe for Densified Wood such as Panzerholz. Most of these have Bullet Proof Properties, hence Panzer (Armoured ) Holz ( Wood ) Permali is used to make Bullet Proof Panel for Military Helicopters. The amount of Lamination Layers to a given Thickness is one thing that may separate certain brands. If a Plinth is desired that measures dissipation and damping similar to these Materials, then there is also the option to investigate Polybentonite Resin Formed Plinths, these can look extremely aesthetically pleasing and are liked by users of both DD and Idler Drive TT's. Another TTS 8000 owner I have communicated with in the UK, uses a MU25 Birch Plywood / PolyBentonite Resin / Corian Arm Board designed Plinth. He Prefers this to many other configurations of materials he has used. Newplast Modelers/Sculpture Clay is another material that will help a lesser material show improved dissipation and damping measurements. https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:993130/FULLTEXT01.pdf |
Back when I undertook to make a slate plinth, it was originally for my Lenco, only. This must have been at least 15 years ago, and there was a "thing" going on about slate plinths, over on Lenco Lovers, or whatever the website is called. OMA made a slate plinth for the Lenco L75, but it was too expensive for me, so I decided to make one of my own. That's how it all started, just out of my own curiosity. Like I hope I said, I don't ascribe any magical properties to slate except to say I liked the results with the Lenco, and by that time I had identified reliable sources for PA slate (the same slate that OMA uses; apparently slate color and character can vary according to geography) and for water-jet cutting of the slate, so going forward from there was only a matter of locating pdf files that could be used to program the water-jet. (For this work, I thank the guys at RC Waterjet in York. They were great.) Peter Reinders, a very nice guy on Lenco Lovers, was able to provide the pdf file for cutting the Lenco slate. I got the files for the SP10s off another website (Soundfountain). We created a file for the DP80, using the measurements off the actual chassis. I made an engineering drawing, and the waterjet guys turned my drawing into a pdf. It was no problem at all to acquire slate slabs cut to my specs by the quarry in PA. Furthermore they honed both sides to perfect plane flatness and champhered the corners of the slabs, for looks and so they weren't dangerous to handle, before sending to the waterjet company.
Mijostyn, You may be correct that torque is a problem only at start-up, but there is such a thing as stylus drag, which also requires momentary bursts of torque from the motor, to maintain absolute constant speed. I think it may be important to hold all surrounding structures, including the stators, rock stable against the torque that can be supplied by the motor, so all that force (=torque) is devoted to accelerating the platter. It just seems a good idea. Richard Krebs devoted a lot of study and analysis to this issue with respect first to the SP10s and then to his own tt design, which I think is now commercially available. He offers mods to SP10 Mk2 and Mk3, to stabilize the stators on those two turntables. I've had that mod applied to my Mk3, and I believe I can hear a difference; the modified Mk3 is more "musical", flowing, effortless. (Not very scientific, I admit.) Because the Mk3 motor is more torque-y perhaps than any other DD motor ever sold commercially, the benefits of the Krebs mod may be most obvious on the Mk3. Also, Technics opted for tight servo control. Some other DDs, e.g., my Kenwood L07D use a more relaxed servo feedback system, and indeed the L07D is exceptionally musical and flowing in its SQ, as is. Not to mention it also has a coreless motor, also a good thing. (We agree, Artemis.)
|
@lewm It is those planes perpendicular to the compressive force present when slate was formed that I think makes slate a good material for dissipating energy, and why it does not ring, as other "stones" may do I looked up slate’s hardness compared to other rocks after posting. I knew it was a softer stone. I also tried to find out its porous rating. I found very little except it is somewhat porous. I was thinking that might be the cause. I should have picked up on its layering. Oh well, that’s the "golden years effect". I have worked with slate before but in the building aspect, not audio. Whenever I ran into a slate, I took extra precautions with my footers. FWIW, I was wondering how you got a piece big enough to even work since it falls apart so easily. I suspect they didn’t use a backhoe. Anyway, thanks for the reply. |
@lewm , The torque would be a problem only at start up but you can suspend a high mass (SME) just use stiffer springs.
The MinusK isolates beautifully, probably better than any other design but it is not user friendly. You have to locate the mass on it just so or it will bounce to one side or another. You have to treat the turntable gingerly or you get it bouncing.
A hanging suspension ala SME and Sota is the most stable. The Sota is handily the most user friendly because the sub chassis is internalized and you can rest your hand on the plinth to "Q" the record without upsetting anything. The motor is isolated from the sub chassis. During play the sub chassis does not visibly bounce causing any noticeable flexing of the belt unless you intentionally disturb it. Wow and flutter are less than 0.05%. Better yet the turntable is now locked into speed regardless of any change in friction. The hanging suspension is so stable it just does not matter. SME uses a counter belt. Some people use them without it. A solid heavy plinth is simple and very easy to make unless you torture yourself by doing it in slate:-) Get that seismometer app put it on your platter and bang around. Let us know what you discover!
No, I do not like direct drives and one reason is you can not get a suspended one. I also do not slip "Q" records and do not need the torque. This Sony however is a classic and built like a tank. I can understand the attraction. |
Perhaps the WT turntable sounds good in your system. I have a history of finding fault with the WT tonearm. I won't reiterate here.
You found defects in the arm but it was not made of MDF, I was referring to the plinth. :) That the turntable and the arm were built economically and in a completely unconventional way and against the rules of logic can be argued, but there is no product that is perfect and has no problems in its life of use. So I wouldn't demonize it, otherwise there would be products to point the finger at even in the hi-end ... don't you think? |
lewm
my experience with dd is also excellent. and I heard plenty of other types TT .
best of both world is coreless DD. fluid and musical like belt as well. that's why I collected the tts-8000. good compromise both value and maintenance. anything better is pretty expensive.
I love my kenwood. kp. 990, not as fluid as Sony. but detailwise, saturation and coherence is one step above at this moment .now u get me thinking. kenwood have a x Alum structure below. it's both light and strong maybe stiffness helps with stabalizing the torque. mass loading dd might be beneficial
|
thank you for comments
I have the original plinth actually it's full mdf with piano finish. this will be backup.
workable choice :
Alum - spring suspension. it's workable I experienced. friend had did this on tonearm of thorens. 1 cm aluminum with linn's spring. the only decent mod approved.. the rest totalling about 6 thorens. 2 garrard. I don't find them good. linn sondek is great. empire is great. question is how to get the spring and how to get it right.
Alum MDF Alum
bamboo ebony bamboo. frank schröder method
penzoholtz. unfortunately no source for me.
general mass load. just equal to dead and not necessarily quiet.
|
best-groove, Perhaps the WT turntable sounds good in your system. I have a history of finding fault with the WT tonearm. I won't reiterate here. Artemus, You wrote, "However After doing a lot of testing with various footer materials,
there are materials like glass, Metals & Stone which raise red flags
to me." By this do you mean to say that based on your experiments with footers, you question the use of slate as a material for a plinth? Because for one thing, I don't use slate footers on any turntable. For another, I think it is misleading to lump all sorts of materials we take out of the ground under the term "stone", if that was your intent. I don't care for granite or marble used as shelving or plinth-making. Slate is quite different from those two in that it is naturally layered, which is why it is so difficult to cut and shape; it can fall apart if you are not careful. We destroyed some slate slabs on the water-jet machine until the guys in York figured out how to cut it without fracturing it. To quote from Wiki: "Slate is a fine-grained, foliated, homogeneous metamorphic rock derived from an original shale-type sedimentary rock composed of clay or volcanic ash through low-grade regional metamorphism. It is the finest grained foliated metamorphic rock.
Foliation may not correspond to the original sedimentary layering, but
instead is in planes perpendicular to the direction of metamorphic
compression." It is those planes perpendicular to the compressive force present when slate was formed that I think makes slate a good material for dissipating energy, and why it does not ring, as other "stones" may do. But I am not here to argue one way or another. I can only say I like the results. Mijostyn, I did not think we were talking about suspending a turntable, or not. I am all for a good suspension and totally against a poorly thought out suspension. The only really good one I know about is the Minus K. I do not think built-in suspensions where one has to choose between suspending the motor along with the platter and bearing, where motor vibrations are not isolated from the platter except by the belt, or not suspending the motor, where the belt must be allowed to flex in order to accommodate any motion of the suspension relative to the motor, in which case one invites speed irregularity due to belt stretching and contracting. I don't know how to solve this dilemma, so I live with no suspension and high mass. Moreover, high mass is advantageous for DD turntables, at least. Not because it affords isolation so much as it does afford a high mass for the high torque motors to work against, lest the plinth moves instead of the platter. Newton, again. For this very reason also, it is problematic to suspend a DD turntable. But you dislike DD, so no problem for you.
|
MDF is never the best choice for a TT plinth.
True!!! But the Well tempered turntable sounded good! |
Dear @artemus_5 : I have not personal experiences in specific the use of slate in that application but I rememberd that lewm has it and with success.
R. |
Mass does nothing to isolate a turntable from environmental rumble. Not concrete floors or granite tops or heavy plinths. The only way to isolate a turntable from the environment is a stable suspension tuned to less than 3 Hz. Such a suspension isolates the turntable from everything above 3 Hz. Anyone can make a solid plinth look good. The trick is to make a suspended one look good. Avid does a good job as does Basis. The SME's are sort of industrial but very impressive in person. The Dohmann is an acquired taste. The Sota more or less classic.
Lewm has done a lot of work with slate and drilling holes in slate is not easy. It chips very easily. One could make a suspended slate turntable.
You can suspend anything.
Put a seismometer app on your phone. Light up the app and place your phone on a table. Tap the table lightly with a finger and you will see the needle twitch. Right now I have my phone on the desk. I see every key stroke on the phone. The desk is on a concrete floor. I bang the floor with a foot and it registers on the phone. I just opened and closed the door to the office and that registered on the phone. The lightest tap of a finger registers on the phone. You think your rack is solid? Check it out with this phone app. You are in for a big surprise. Put the phone on your platter and start tapping around. Can you jump up and down in front of the turntable without it registering? What happens when your refrigerator compressor starts up or the washing machine. |
@lewm & @rauliruegas
I know both of you are very knowledgeable about TT’s in general. However After doing a lot of testing with various footer materials, there are materials like glass, Metals & Stone which raise red flags to me. IF you need to gain High freq. clarity those are among the best. I’ve never needed in, in my system and have fought brightness in my system. So I can’t imagine a plinth made out of either material (Though VPI sandwiched Alum in the Scoutmaster I had). I suppose either material can be damped and if so, fine. But a full on slate? Though it is a soft porous, does it need damping? I respect your experience do you believe it worked for you because your system needed the extra clarity? Just curious. Not meant as flames.
EDIT After re-reading the OP I notice he said the MDF Plinth was dark and dead. I understand that and maybe the hard metal or stone is in order. A tone wood may also be in order from my experience. I would still be interested in Lew & Raul"s answer to my question because my experience has been limited to my own system. |
The Link will take you to a TTS 8000 Thread. The TTS 8000 in question is one of two owned by the Lenco OP. Similar to my own situation. I have commissioned a rebuild of a Bearing with Modern Materials for one of my TTS's from a Engineer known for there workmanship with TT's . The OP is now having their TTS done in a similar manner from the same Engineer, they are nearly ready to receive their TTS with the New Materials in use. I have too many TT's so asked for the OP's TTS to be Prioritised over my own one. The A/B reports should be good to receive, as both the TTS's have Panzerholz Plinths, and can use the same Rack/Support Set Up, along with the same Tonearm > Cartridge. The only obvious difference will be that one Plinth is of a very high standard of finish with the added veneer. There might be something stimulating in the Exotic Veneered Plinth to inspire the OP of this thread. https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=33328.30 |
I actually made, or had made for me, slate-based plinths for the DP80, the Lenco idler, and the SP10 Mk3. Before that, I also made a slate plinth for an SP10 Mk2, now sold along with the Mk2. These projects were done one by one, not all at the same time. I purchased slate slabs cut to my specifications from a quarry in PA. (Details available upon request.) I then identified a water-jet company in York, PA, who did all the cutting for me and helped with programming their machine to make the precision cuts required to accommodate this or that turntable chassis. After that, I drilled the holes for tt chassis mounting bolts and tonearm mounting, myself. (Except for the Mk3 plinth, I did not create conventional removable tonearm mounts; the tonearms mount directly on the top surface of the slate slabs that act as plinth. This was to save effort and also for structural reasons.) All this required a lot of driving back and forth to PA from my home in MD, and a lot of work in my garage. I must have been obsessed back then; I don't think I have the energy or the enthusiasm to take on such projects these days.
Slate seems to work very well as a plinth, but in the case of the SP10 Mk3, I also added a massive wood base made of solid Cherrywood. It is my subjective impression that the wood base made the SP10 sound even more neutral than it already did using slate alone. The SP10 Mk3 plinth in total weighs close to 100 lbs. So I believe there is some real benefit to the CLD approach. In the case of the OP, I would suggest you consider putting the aluminum layer in between the two layers of different woods. That might provide a better CLD effect than stacking two kinds of wood with alu underneath. But really, who knows? Just my guess. One thing I do believe: MDF is never the best choice for a TT plinth.
|
|
Anthony, If you really want to do this right and I think that turntable is worth it, you mount it on a 1" thick aluminum plate which also mounts the tonearm and suspend/hang the plate with four springs, one at each corner. The trick is to rate the springs so that the plate bounces below 3 Hz. Look at the big SME turntables and the Sota Millenium table to get a basic idea. You can have the plate anodized any color you like. The springs can hang from hooks and each corner hidden by a tube which as an example could be PVC pipe veneered with wood or whatever. These could also serve as the feet of the table which could be leveled by raising and lowering the hooks. This would be a really fun project and you would come out of it with the worlds first properly isolated direct drive turntable!
|
I just purchased a TT-101 unit with the same plinth you've pictured on eBay. I didn't buy it for the plinth but now that I have it I love this thing and will use it. |
|
|
You can try japanese sites for TB-1000 or TB-2000.
Or you can try a sandwich alum/mdf/alum.
Great tt you have.
G |
