@Analogluvr, while there are of course ways of designing a tube-based line-level output stage to provide low impedance without using coupling capacitors (for example transformer coupling, or Atma-Sphere’s patented differential output circuit which uses a servo-based method of nulling out DC offsets), I’m not sure how or if a simple conventionally designed single-ended cathode follower circuit might be designed to be direct coupled. That might be a good question for Roger or Ralph in Roger’s "ask an amplifier designer" thread.
By definition a cathode follower has a resistor (or resistors) connected between the cathode and (at least usually) the ground of the circuit. The bias current flowing through the tube and consequently through that resistor will cause a significant DC voltage to be present at the cathode, which must be prevented from being sent into the power amp or other connected device. A capacitor is of course a simple and likely the least expensive way of doing that.
The DC voltage that is developed at the cathode, btw, will be positive and typically serves the purpose of biasing the tube. In effect it makes the grid negative with respect to the cathode, and thereby biases the tube at a desirable operating point. There are other means of developing bias, of course, by directly applying a negative voltage to the grid, but that kind of approach is less commonly employed as it adds complexity, has tradeoffs of its own, and a cathode resistor would still be required anyway if the circuit is to function as a cathode follower.
Best regards,
-- Al
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Thanks Al. Is it not possible to do a direct coupled cathode follower? |
This post is PLEASE match Advice Pass Labs X350.5 (20k) to Hovland HP-100 (2500ohms) Miss-match ???
The 10 to 1 match is not covered here but it is close enough to be able to try (maybe) if the 2500ohm doesn't rise real high at other frequencies or better yet goes lower. The problem is that it does rise and a lot so in this case the Pass Labs X350.5 (20k) and the
Hovland HP-100 (2500ohms) is not only a mismatch but a poor match choice. The Stereophile measurements below show the Hovland HP-100 (2500ohms)
rising to all the way to 4.3k ohms (43,000ohm) at 20Hz. They recommend at amp with an input impedance of 47k. The Pass X350.5 has an input Impedance of only 20k. If this preamp(
Hovland HP-100) is used with (Pass Labs X350.5, 20k input impedance) you will lose bass according to the Stereophile's measurements (quote and link is below) You will see this play out many times with tube preamps and SS amps for no other reason than tube preamps typically have higher output impedance and SS amps have lower input impedance. The reason many of these tube preamps have cathode followers is because if they didn't their output impedance would be so high they could match with very few ss or even tube amps. Some people look at a cathode follower as a band aid for a poor design with way too high of an output impedance. Sort of like how some SS designers use negative feedback to lower distortion. Sure it lowers distortion but at what price? That said there are some amazing sounding amps that use negative feedback just like there are some amazing sounding preamps that use cathode followers. I subscribe to either school. For me it comes down to how it sounds and does it match well? If it matches well and sounds great then I am happy! Just get to the 10 to 1 across the board and you are good. Quote froom Steroephile " Its input impedance was a usefully high 100k ohms in the midrange and bass, with just a small reduction to a still-high 86k ohms at 20kHz. Despite the claim that the HP-100 uses a cathode follower output stage, its source impedance was high at 2.4k ohms, rising to 4.3k ohms at 20Hz. The partnering power amplifier would best have an input impedance of at least 47k ohms if the bass is not to sound lea". Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/hovland-hp-100-preamplifier-measurements#Kw6gd5Q68B4s6o33.99
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Btw I heard HP100 many yrs. ago. I remember it sounded beautiful non offensive and had a see through quality to it and did all the nice soundstage tricks but lacked that prat and tranisent bite!
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Hi Analogluvr, I believe you are referring to the following statement by the OP in the last of his posts dated 10-7-2017: My buddy told wanting tubes try and find a tube amp that can both get the desired output impedance and preferably one without a cathode follower. Those tend to cause different impedance swings verse a pre uses tubes in paralell [sic] to lower impedance. You are quite correct that cathode followers are commonly used in the output stages of tube-based preamps and other tube-based components which provide line-level outputs, because cathode followers can provide lower output impedances and better drive capabilities than other circuit configurations employing the same or similar tube types. Usually the impedance swings he refers to are mainly the result of the coupling capacitor that is used in the majority of such designs between the output of the cathode follower circuit and the output of the device. The impedance presented by a capacitor rises as frequency decreases, so as you probably are aware the output impedance of a tube-based component, or even a solid state component if it employs a capacitor in series with its output (and some do), can be far higher at deep bass frequencies than its specified output impedance. Output impedance specs usually being based on mid-range frequencies such as 1 kHz. That variation in impedance can cause deep bass rolloff and unwanted phase shifts if the input impedance of the connected component is not high enough. A capacitor having a relatively large value (i.e., a large number of uf, meaning microfarads) will result in that effect being much less significant than with a capacitor having a smaller value. However choosing a capacitor having a relatively large value can often bring tradeoffs into play involving the size, cost, and sonic quality of the capacitor. The bottom line is that if the power amp has a high enough input impedance to be a suitable match for the output impedance of the preamp at 20 Hz all of this will be a non-issue, and there will be no reason to avoid preamps which use cathode follower output stages. And if the input impedance of the power amp is ten or more times greater than the 20 Hz output impedance of the preamp the match will be suitable. If that ratio is less than 10x the match may or may not be suitable, depending on how the output impedance of the preamp varies over the frequency range. Best regards, -- Al |
So the the point with a tube preamp with a cathode follower is they will typically (nothing is always) have a higher output impedance or one that rises quickly and/or both typically and this will cause a poor impedance
match with a said matching ss amp.
So
with a preamp the output
impedance rule of thumb is the lower, the better.
The simplified reasoning for this is the minimum of a 10 to 1
impedance match you want for your preamp to your amp.
There are many technical reasons for this but to make it easy to understand just know as a rule of thumb the minimum is 10 to 1 but to have more is better.
Why is this? Mainly to keep from having your bass roll off or other roll off issues.
So if the output impedance of a solid state preamp is 100ohm (SS preamps are typically lower than tubes) and the source (input) impedance of a solid state amp is 30k then you know you are good.
Why because 10 to 1 or 10 x 100ohm = 1,000ohm. 1,000ohm is much lower than amps input impedance of 30,000ohm or 30kohm.
In this event you will be covered and good to go.
You will have your 10 to 1 covered via (10 x 100ohm) being 1,000 which is well under the 30kohm (30,000ohm). Remember the more head room the better. Here your amp max is 30,000ohm and you are only at 1,000 so you are in great shape.
Now the idea is that a tube preamp with a cathode follower will have a much higher output impedance. Also, the impedance is not only much higher to start with but also rises much quicker also so its double trouble.
Lets say for this example this example the tube preamp with cathode follower output
impedance is 3,000ohm ohm. The Solid State preamp was only 100ohm. These are common numbers of tube and ss.
Big difference here. My SS preamp has an output
impedance of .5ohm which is nice and super low.
As a rule this is why SS preamps and SS amps work well together. Same said for tube preamps and tube amps. The output
impedance of tube preamps is high but many times the tube amps source impedance or input impedance is equally high to form a good match as such as 80k or 100k so it can handle the tube preamps higher output impedance.
This is why people say that tube preamp and especially tube preamp with cathode followers can be tough match for ss amps. Because tube preamps with cathode followers typically have higher output impedance and many (not all) solid state amps do not have very high source impedance to cover the 10 to 1 delta.
So back to our tube preamp with cathode follower example that has an output
impedance of 3,000ohm. Take the 3000ohm x 10 and that is 30,000ohm or 30k.
Your ss amp has a source
impedance
30k and this puts you right up against the ss amps source
impedance of 30k.
This you might be able to squeeze by with but not ideal. The problem is like I stated before tube preamp with cathode follower not only starts high but also rises. At some frequencies it could rise to 5,000 or 6,000 and now you do not have the 10 to 1 covered and you can get bass roll off and/or top end roll off or both and now for no other reason than a improper
impedance match your rig will not provide anywhere near its potential. Never mind how great each preamp or amp may sound if they don't match electronically your rig will be flat and rolled off and has all kinds of problems.
I hope this hacked version helped clear some of this up.
Thanks |
I agree analogluvr! I was trying not to piss off tube afficianos! 😁
That's why I love cj only one tube rest is with good parts and volume control. I had the highly touted LTA MZ2. It sounded nice, did layering was airy & somewhat rounded. But lacked prat, transient bite and fine detail which gave CJ an edge in dimensionality. Eg. Snare kit being hit sounded more realistic projecting out 360 degs. |
For the most part I don’t necessarily think it’s about tube and solid state. I totally disagree that you lose fine nuances with Tubes in fact I would tend to say it’s the opposite. One thing I have never heard solid-state do as well as Tubes is the holographic imaging thing.
So even though in my first sentence I say it’s not about one versus the other then I go on to say that I prefer Tubes LOL.Maybe I just haven’t heard the right solid-state stuff although I’ve heard most of it.
One thing I had a question about is earlier on in this thread someone mentioned to stay away from a cathode follower because of rising impedance Or something like that. My understanding was that a cathode follower is there to make the unit able to drive the next stage without mismatch problems? Is there something I’m missing? |
If your speaker is neutral u dont need all tubes. Cj pre with pass amp great combo. If you get tube pre and tube amp. You will lose prat & fine detail. Nuances! I had set before sounds nice but loss of fine detail and bass dynamics. But to be fair my speakers weren't really efficient.
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I can agree with jahatl! Get a CJ ET-7se and be done with it. One of the top 5 preamps in the world today. GAT 2 being the other one. Cj has the prat thing going for it which makes other preamps sound less analog! |
I had this same burning question. Nelson Pass answered it for me himself. He said the Conrad Johnson single ended triode was an excellent fit for his amps and highly recommended the pairing. Look on the DIY sites where he frequents or email him yourself.
I was skeptical as well and borrowed a Pass XP10. Lovely preamp with many things I like about it. The really real was that my CJ Pre’s and I have a few; all attenuated better; sounded best with my CJ Premier 16LS2 and my CJ ET-5. Nelson was correct. |
fsmithjack, thanks for the update. Sounds like you (finally) found your matching components. Start a new thread in the Analog section and get the input you need from the gurus over there. There are some serious hardcore vinyl folks who hardly ever cross over to any other section, especially Digital even if their life depended on it....😁 Enjoy the journey. |
Happy Listening! fsmithjack
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Hey guys - I just update my other thread with this info so thought to update you guys also. Thanks
Guys - I needed to shoot you update today.
jafant, testpilot and hk_fan have been waiting for updates. Sorry haven't updated sooner, Been so busy working but wanted to update you guys and 68pete, jmcgrogan2, kalai and all the other great members that have been so awesome and encouraging,
I'm psyched.
Some of the great changes we make end up being the ones we don't make sometimes. I had a deal to change amps from my Pass Labs X350.5 to Hegel H30 amp but that deal fell through but now I am happy it did. The Pass is a great amp and it is now shinning like never before but in fairness it has always been an incredible amp and that was probably more of a flavor change verse an upgrade but glad I still have my Pass.
This great sound I am getting now has been the case for the last couple weeks but I was just struct by a song I was just listening to and thought - oh man - wow - hands down - this is best sound I've even known - I am so lucky to have found that elusive and ever fleeting balance that we all strive for.
My system as of today has reached a height that I have never known before. I have had some nice sounding systems and been at this a while so this is sort of a big deal because been working through my recent rig re-fit and pushed through and reached this new great level.
I am sure many of you know what I am talking about. That rare, elusive moment where you are like - awe man - there we are - this is fantastic * dam - yeah - music just bounces with emotion, clarity and impact that strikes you right in the gut.
It funny for a while there I was questioning if Magico's were for me and if solid state could get me there. Haha, what a mistake thinking that was... I always had tubes and thought I may need to return to them in some form. Um that's a big NO. I'm in my 40's but I remember my first piece of music was AC/DC Back in Black on 8-Track and I Played in my 2-XL Robot If you have never heard of a 2-XL google it. It was a little talking robot that played 8-tracks and sounded great. They put a good sounding little speaker in there and I was hooked and my audio journey got rolling. I got my first good record player in 1985 and listening to harder music back then. The Who, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Van Halen, Judas Priest, Stones and all on vinyl and loved it.
Needless to say I am pretty psyched with my rig now and wanted to update you guys.
Also, for the record the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp is absolutely fantastic. I had some people tell me how great it was and other saying it was ok but sort of polite. I have no idea how anyone could call it that other than it is one terrifically transparent component so I guess if your system is polite than this pre would pass it along but man. This is one fantastic preamp in my system.
I was writing about how I was looking for the right pre and i just tried out a half dozen or so preamps and a few I bought and then flipped and others I took on loan.
I bought BAT VK-32SE and out it went quick. Nothing wrong with the pre but not what i was looking for. The Levinson pulverized that preamp in every way. I tried the very good Ayre K-1xe that I really liked and it is a very good preamp and if I had not heard the Levinson I would have been happy with it but the Levinson is in my opinion a much more serious preamp. It's just flat out a little better at everything and overall much better. I tried another great preamp the Allnic L-3000 MKII and Manley Steelhead as a linestage and these both were great but not up the Levinson in my opinion. Not even close in my opinion.
I love this Mark Levinson No.326s preamp so much that I just ordered a set of the dual-mono phono module boards to install to make it a full function preamplifier. Going pop these in and take another swing at vinyl.
Love the idea of finding such an incredible preamp and being able to upgrade into a phonostage as well. Super excited. What do you guys think:
VPI Classic Signature 3D arm demo
or
Dr. Feickert Woodpecker Jelco arm demo
both same price
or something else for $4,000. I have a owned a couple decent vinyl rigs but really a digital guy so sort of novice in the analogue real so any ideas or feedback would be great.
Thanks
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Thanks Jafant - you too!! |
Happy Thanksgiving! fsmithjack.
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Thanks so much! Yes I’ve heard Levinson can be a bit polite, closed in and dark and that is exact opposite of what I want but was thinking this is a more modern take and the reviews - although must be taking with grain of salt say it’s super transparent with great bass which is what I want.
Both pres are the same money and the ML might be worth a few much bucks resale wise but just not sure and prefer to not to have to flip another pre after a week hence my request for help and advice.! Thanks again for me feedback! I appreciate it. |
I've never heard an Esoteric preamp, so I cannot comment.
I do recall owning a Mark Levinson 38S for about a month.
I did not care for it at all, sold it as quick as I could.
That was probably about 12 years ago though, and I never had the desire to buy another ML product.
Could have just been a synergy issue, as ML does have it's fans, just like any other brand.
Personally, I can live with a SS amp, but I need a tube preamp.
If you want SS, look for a Klyne 7 series preamp.
Rare and hard to find, but the best SS preamp I've ever heard, and that includes brands like Rowland, ML, Krell, etc..
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I just started a thread asking about these 2-preamps but you guys have been with me on my system re-fit and wanted to see if any of you guys had feedback on these preamps:
Esoteric C03 preamp or Mark Levinson 326S preamp
ANY FEEDBACK - THOUGHTS - IDEAS would be so appreciated.
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Lol... i remember that - you totally called that - the BAT for sure and I took note of your comment as I do with all you guys.
I appreciate and respect the feedback you guys give me.
I am so much more better informed as an Aphile because of this site and you guys.
Im getting there but I don’t regret the move either as I have with so many others because I’ve made and I had to do it and hear it for my meself / i had this idea of what a good, warm tube preamp would be and now know what it is in my system.
With my old Speakers the BAT would have been the perfect match so it’s always so system dependent.
I agree on the too many changes too quickly also but there are reasons on each of these which I’m fine with - i needed to try the tubepreamp and the cable change wasn’t anything I was looking to do it just happened organically.
I think i mentioned before on many components i let them come to me.
What I mean is the Kubala Emotion SC’s were what I really wanted and looked for weeks before I finally pulled the trigger on the Cardas Clear Reflections because that old HiDiamond match were so bright and brutal it had me not even want to listen to my system.
Since them I’ve also learned that break in had a lot to do with the brightness also so a more patient take by me would have helped but we are who we are as people and the best we can hope to do is learn and evolve from mistakes.
So needless to say I woke up in the am and came across a great deal on a used pair of Kubula-Sosna Emotion 2.5m Speaker Cables and I jumped.
I was looking all over for these and when they came up i needed to jump and make the move.
If not they would be gone so my buying used at my target of area of paying 40% to 45% of original MSRP sort of dictates the timeline on many of these decisions because they will be gone. I’ve leaned this the hard so many times. I wanted them. I’ve always thought good Speaker Cables are VERY important. The most important cable IMO.
i actually heard the Emotion SC’s and IC’s at Goodwin’s Audio a few months back on Magico’s and loved them and had them as a target since then but just couldn’t find any used anywhere and way way too much money new! It’s not that I’m cheap (although if I sort of am :) ) it’s just i could never afford excellent cables at their totally nuts new cable pricing. Heck even the Used prices are nuts in the eyes of regular people in the rest of the world... 😂
My wife was like how much does that strip of wire cost? I said they are not wires they are cables and she looks at me like I’m nuts 🥜
When i heard them at Goodwins they were with Constalation gear which is super expensive but I feel in love the Kubala Cables so I hope i like them.
I liked the Cardas Clear Reflection SC and the change had more to do with what I described above.
He Reflections are basically Cardas Golden Reference with the cold forged spikes from the Clears.
The Golden Reference is a beloved Cable that many people still love but the Golden Reference was a very warm and rich euphoric Cable.
I was thinking and am still hoping the Emotions are in comparison the Reflections are a bit more neutral and transparent than the Cardas cables. I needed and still want to have that musicality. I think Magico work better with this type of cable but the change was hoping to move me a smidge back to the middle of the spectrum.
I value your opinion you were dead on with call on the BAT!
Do you really think they might be warmer than the Cardas? Man everyone speaks so highly of the emotions and if warmer than the Cardas that would make them really warm and just didn’t think a cable that rich and warm would be so highly thought of but would love for you to expand a bit.
If this is the case maybe I go with a cooler IC???
I was thinking about trying to match and go with Kubala Sosna Emotion IC which i heard we’re great but the overly warm has me quite open minded. That kind of goes against my new 3 layer approach of Transparency, musicality and neutrality that is my goal in this order.
as always thank so much :)
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Hmm, you bought the BAT VK-32SE because you complained that the S5's were too bright. I warned you just how warm the VK-32SE was.
I'll also tell you that Kubala-Sosna Emotion cables will be warm sounding, possibly even warmer than the Cardas Clear Reflection.
I understand that you may fear too revealing cables like Nordost, but with K-S, you went the other way, IMHO.
As for a more neutral preamp, of the SS preamps you mention, the Ayre K-1xe would probably offer the most resolution.
If looking for another tube unit, look for a VAC or ARC preamp, both offer higher resolution than BAT.
Let these items settle in before making a final judgement. For instance, even though the Emotion cables may be warmer sounding, you may like them once you get a more resolving preamp.
One change at a time works best for me.
Too many changes at once can lead to mass confusion.
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Hey guys - I have some new developments in my system that I had shared in my other threads and wanted to share with you guys also. Thanks
Hey guys - wanted to update you. I got the BAT VK32SE and my PS Audio P10 Conditioner from Fedex and have had a chance to install and listen a bit and these adds allow me to see right away where and how they fit or don't fit..
Like I said I am learning and working toward building my new system re-fit and figuring it out on the fly. I know I am going to make mistakes because most all my buys are without listening first. I know not ideal but also most items I am buying are used so that is sort of the price of this approach. Saves a ton of money but I also don't get to try in my own system first but also buying used and properly allows me to re-flip the items that are not the fits I am looking for.
This said here we go.
I know it is very early but right out of the gate the BAT is not for me. Great preamp and nice and warm and sounds great but these Magico speakers are so transparent and so resolving that they crave - require and demand nothing but the most transparent and neutral components in the chain.
The BAT just provides a bit too much in terms of moving away from neutrality.
I now understand why all you guys want components that are dead neutral. I never got that before but I sure do now. Clear as day!
Once your system gets to a level of transparency where every little change really is highlighted and effects the whole you want everything else that is added to not take from that.
The BAT is sweet and has great bass and sounds great but I have been running my Bricasti direct and realize just how much more I appreciate that sound vs what a tube preamp offers.
Maybe another tube preamp that is more neutral would be more to my liking but I am on the transparency train now and its hard to add anything that doesn't help scrub that window clean and make it as clean and as pure as possible where the BAT added too much tint to that window. A pleasant hue of tint but I tint none the same and many of you told me this and I want the glass in that window as pure and as pristine as i can get it and would love help and feedback from you guys.
Many of you called this but it was important for me to try a decent tube to get that doubt out of my mind and sort of flush my brain of that idea. Sure tubes can add so much that is desired but in my situation the trade off's where too steep of a price for me and one I am not willing to pay.
What do you guys think?
I am thinking Solid State preamp. Ayre K-1xe or maybe a Mark Levingson 326s. I would love a Pass XP20 but none out there used and the XP30 way too much money and the XP10 might now be able to outdo my Bricasti direct. Decisions / decisions.
Also, the PS Audio P10 is fantastic. I love it and it was a nice add on the neutrality and transparency front so happy about that.
I am batting 500 liking 1 out 2 of my last changes/adds.
Also, on my new focused path of neutrality and transparency I am making another speaker cable change. I know a couple weeks is very quick for these changes but in light of what I have learned it makes sense to me.
I switched from HiDiamond D8 to Cardas Clear Reflection speaker cables. My main reason at the time was my speakers with the former cables were incredibly bright and I wasn't happy with my speakers and this cable change and the added break was very helpful to fix this.
The bottom line is the HiDiamonds and the Magico's were not a good match so I pulled the trigger and made the change. I went to warmer and richer cable which was a nice change but the cable is a warmer and richer cable. I want neutrality and transparency so I today pulled the trigger on a cable change.
I sold my Cardas Clear Reflection speaker cables for the same price I paid for them so no financial pain there but they did help me learn more about my speakers and my preferences as it relates to these speakers. Also, what drove this is my ideal cable came available so I pulled the trigger. These were more money than the Cardas CF cables. Not a ton more and but a few hundreds more not crazy expensive considering the buy sell road i take but I am hoping this will be a nice change because these are a more higher end cable and well thought of cable and are known to work great with Magico's
Kubula-Sosna Emotion 2.5 meter Speaker Cables. I am hoping these are great. I am hoping these and a solid state preamp rather than a tube preamp will get me closer to where I want to go. Both changes are chasing that neutrality and transparency goal. There is always the fear of going too far the other way so that is why rather than a Nordost or a silver cable I went with the Kubula-Sosna Emotion as they are known to be a musical cable yet quite transparent.
I think my guiding goals are now transparent, musical and neutral and in this order is this is what will drive all my future decisions and not sure I could own this so confidently without my trial error process of trying on this BAT tube preamp.
What do you guys think?
Any good SS preamp idea's?
Any of you guys here these speaker cables I just bought?
Thanks as always for all the help.
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Thank you for the kind words! Fedex tracking says the P10 and BAT should land tomorrow. Can’t wait to get home from work tomorrow night! Great thing being an Audiophile when making changes it’s like Christmas for grown up’s :) love it 😍 |
Beautiful system- fsmithjack
Happy Listening!
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I'm happy to read that your patience has paid off.
I would leave the Pass Labs X350.5 plugged directly into the wall.
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UPDATE: I wanted to update my 3 threads. I appreciate very much all the feedback and help during this process. The folks on the GON are the best!
Guys my speakers were not even close to broken in. As in Brand New or very close to it.
Goodwin's told me this, they called it cold, and told me not to worry and promised me they would change dramatically.
You know how it goes though - you hear what you hear and that sort of supersedes everything else but I was trying to be patient although I'm pretty impatient by nature as my words have made pretty clear but I am learning and growing as an aphile.
I was inclined to be believe them as they are the Magico pro's but I was worried because I was so unhappy with how they sounded at that point.
I just didn't think when I bought a used 2 1/2 year old pair of speakers they would need Full Blown brake-in but I was wrong.
Also, I thought that even if they did need break in I doubted they would evolve so much to make that much of a difference. I hear all the talk about break in being over rated and it is more a matter of us getting used to them verse them actually changing but I also would think if anything does need break in it would be speakers with the CAP and drivers needing it.
All this said I am utterly amazed at how much they have changed. Sure I made a speaker cable change that made a nice difference but that is not where the true evolution was. I am probably around 350 hours on them or so and for a good 8 to 10 hours a day out of 24 for the last week and a half I have really given them some nice volume and some good old SPL's and given them a chance to stretch out.
I am told the 500 - 600 range is when they really settle nicely but I am very impressed and so happy how they are evolving. now These are some very serious speakers. So much better than I thought they were going to be. PS Audio P10 landing today and BAT VK-32SE close on its heals.
As always I am going to plug my Amp via wall direct and hope to get a dedicated 20 amp set up for it and the P10 down the road in the near future but I am over the garage and getting in there means removing fire proof sheet rock etc so that may be a little while out.
Do any of you guys think it is worth plugging my Pass Labs X350.5 into the P10 or just stick to plugging into the wall.
Why did I chose the P10? Couple reasons is one many people like them and i got a such great deal on brand new one thought it was worth a try. Audiotroy told me a conditioner and another server are needed. Although I am pretty happy with my server but am open to new ideas and growing. What do you guys think?
Thanks
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Hey Guys - I borrowed an inexpensive tube preamp and man what a difference. My rig was screaming for tubes. So much so now I'm thinking about a tube amp also? I know Magico needs / should have a SS amp. I only listen at normal levels. Just don't enjoy music real loud except once in a while. Do you think an ARC Reference 150 amp can drive Magico S5 Speakers proper at normal levels in my room? I just think for my taste with these speakers tubes can go a long way. Not quite sure that the ARC REF 150 is enough amp though? Thoughts? Loaded a few pics of my re-fit rig that is starting to take shape. Have new speaker cables coming (Cardas Clear Reflection) and new preamp (BAT 32SE) and am considering trading my Pass Labs X350.5 and a few bucks for a ARC REF 150. Thoughts? I moved speakers out to very outside edge of carpet that can be seen in 3rd pic or so and that helped a bit. Pics make them look closer together than they really are. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160 |
Jond;
yep the “mits” in the 7d with cyro and best grade for $40
cjeap upgrade & sound like a Telefunken, I’m told |
@frozentundra did you mean Matsushita? If so I agree excellent 7dj8 tubes I use them in my preamp.
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FS;
I have a ET3 with a Pass Xa30.5
Combo is very reasolving & I understand your comment on “ drilled like a laser beam” without CJ
i changed tubes to a Mitshibishi from Upscale Audio and the change was remarkable from Electro Harmonic’s
Started as “Lean and super defined” and now is lush, and resolving with no evidence of stridency
anyway, my thoughts
it fixed the entire system & I can listen with no headaches , even the 80’s rock
its a no brainer to me
the CJ & Pass is good
tubes in pre is a very , very good thing with Solid State amp
jeff
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fsmithjack,
You can post pics of your system on Virtual Systems. Even a Digital knucklehead like me can do it easily with my smartphone or a digital camera downloaded to my computer.
I feel your frustration. Bought a new house and have dedicated room that was bright and fatigued me.
Proper setup and room treatments. Now the System/Room is superb.
Alan Goodwin is a Stand up guy and will help you. Took me 1 1/2 yr to find a pair of 30' MIT ICs with XLRs as Alan suggested. They Did solve my issue and more. Work with Alan, he knows his stuff.
Don't give up! Work the problem. Might take sometime and effort but you will get it.
Best Wishes |
Jmmcgrogan2 - yes you did nail that it with that call for sure. Yes PAD I forgot those - yes this combo recommendation rings quite true - perfect call actually- yes another TT. Sold mine to get these but we shall sell my excellent old speakers and get one. As long as I don't re-plug those in. I fear if I do I'll never unplug them again and I want to commit to these S5's. Not yet though but I'll get there - I think :) |
As I said earlier:
A Cary/CJ preamp and some Purist Audio or Kubala-Sosna cables could save the S5's.
Also,looking at the pictures, there is a nice spot on that top shelf - right side for a turntable. ;^) |
Here are some pics of set up to give you guys an idea of the room, space, set up, gear etc. let me know if anything looks like something I should tweak or change.
Magico S5 Speakers Pictures
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So I put a bunch on Flickr but how do I get a link??
thx |
@fsmithjack You can't add pics here but you can upload them to any image hosting site and post a link here. And good luck with your experimenting I hope you get your speakers sounding the way you want!
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Hey guys - I have an update - I updated my setup advice post and wanted to share with you guys as well:
UPDATE:
Ok so I am trying out some different - well matching cables tonight guys! Psyched !!!
My local Magico dealer - the great folks at Goodwin Audio in Waltham, Ma are letting me try out some Kubala-Sosna Expression Speaker Cables and a pair of Balanced Interconnects tonight.
I am pretty excited about this. They tell me they have used Kubala-Sosna in their demo rooms with Magico and used these exact cables with S5's in the past and they know for sure they are a good match so this gets to help reduce some variables here which is awesome!
I will try these tonight and update you guys. So hope they help!
Also, if these don't do the trick or at least help go in the right directio Goodwin will send out a Magico guy to come over my house and check everything out and help me with set up and listen for themselves to help figure out what the problem/s are, offer me some ideas and help me out.
How are awesome are these guys? I couldn't afford to buy new Magico's from them but I can buy some cables and pay them for their service to help me so I am pretty excited. They have been awesome! This is a great dealer and I am very thankful. They as well as you guys have really reduced my audio anxiety - well for now anyways :)
I'll keep you posted. Too bad I can add pics on here?
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@fsmithjack
Give it time for you to enjoy the new sound. As I alluded to earlier - a Lowther full range whizzer cone driver sounds nothing like a modern highly engineered speaker like Magico S5. It may take time to adjust your expectations and appreciate all the lazer accuracy of the S5.
The only concern I would have with the older version S5 is the tweeter - this compresses terribly above 90dB SPL and will definitely sound dull and harsh. So try listening at lower levels if you have been trying them out at loud level.
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I'm not quite following what are the characteristics of the S5 that you don't like. A multi-driver box speaker will never sound like a single-driver full range speaker. Completely different sound texture, detail, imaging, etc., etc. I think your brain/ears are tuned for a different sound and you either need to wait until they adjust or just upgrade along that type/design speakers. Just something to think about before you start going down a rabbit hole and begin an endless chase for perfection. |
Well Magico speakers have a reputation for being very revealing speakers.
I am familiar with your amp, and yes it is known to be a warmer sounding amp.
I am not familiar with your source though. Perhaps you may be better off with a tubed DAC, like a Lampizator.
Then again, maybe there is nothing you can do to ever make the Magico's work for you. You are at a fork in the road. Should you try a warm tube preamp and warmer cables to help tame the Magico highs?
Or just cut bait and sell the S5's now?
I wouldn't make an impulsive decision, think about it for a while.
A Cary/CJ preamp and some Purist Audio or Kubala Sosna cables could save the S5's. However, if they do not, then you may need to go further and try a tubed DAC too.
I have a friend who loves his S5 Mk II's. He is using them with Vitus CDP and electronics, and Jorma Prime cables.
Good luck,
John
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Jmcgrogan2 - thank you so much - super helpful - I'm actually pretty bummed - should say super bummed - got my Magico S5 set up and I mean everyone says how incredible they are - I have a first rate source - Bricasti M1SE - first rate amp - Pass Labs X350.5 which is known to be a pretty warm amp - HiDiamond D8 Speaker Cables which are not Nordost Oden but very nice copper cables and quite compitant, Verestarr Grand Illusion Signature IC's which are also very nice and even a bit warm and these Magico's are burning a whole right through my head like a lazier beam. I've been setting them up and measuring and tweaking and they are giving me a royal head ache? How can this be? These are top rate speakers? They make me want to buy a Cary preamp and CJ tube amp and get Cardas Golden Cross Cable Full Loom? Which I can't do and I'm sure would sound like crap? Even my wife said these don't sound as nice as your other speakers? Any advice? Maybe my bran needs to adjust but there is going to be some serious adjustment- my last speakers were total opposite of laid back - they were ultra revealing but I wasn't expecting this? Bummed to the extream but also hoping a tube pre and maybe a cable change can get these to settle down?? Maybe need to be driven a while also? Just back from Magico and had some service so maybe some new parts or something needs to break in??
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BAT VK-51SE
BAT VK-32SE
CJ ET3SE
CJ CT-6
Any thoughts - think I'm leaning toward the
BAT VK-32SE
I called BAT they said its the sweetest of the BATS and have
same bass and dynamics as the others. The 51SE a little more neutral but
the Magico's seem to be looking for a bit of sweetening.
I've owned the VK-51SE, VK-50SE, VK-31SE, and had the VK-32SE in my home for a one week audition. I would agree that the VK-32SE is the sweetest sounding preamp of the BAT bunch, but it did NOT have the bass and dynamics of the VK-51SE. Unfortunately in life, one can't have it all. I preferred the VK-51SE in my system. In the end, I sent the VK-32SE back to the dealer, too sweet for my tastes. I wound up buying an ARC Ref 3 instead. Now this was about 9 years ago. I've also owned a CJ Premier LS 16 mk II, which was also a sweet sounding tube preamp. A bit more refined sounding than the VK-32SE, but the VK-32SE did have more power and dynamics than the CJ. I would think if you are looking for sweetness, either CJ preamp, or the VK-32SE would be best suited for you. The VK-51SE has more dynamics and power than any other preamp on your list, and though it may sound warm compared to ARC or VAC preamps, it is not as warm as the other 3 preamps on your list. |
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Thanks Jond - that's very good advice! I've been wanting a Pre for a while but you are right. I didn't really like my Bricasti direct with my Rethm's but I made some other changes that had nothing do with a pre and now after a month or so I really do like it direct now. Well that was before the speaker change :)
I run my Bricasti Dac via USB and picked up the new Uptone Audio ISO Regen with its matching capacitor charged / driving LPS-1 Power Suppy and then I was using my Pass Labs X350.5 single ended but I wasn't using the XLR jumpers. Nelson told me the jumpers on this amp makes a huge difference and send me a pair. It made a huge difference' I was psyched! These two changes and some mental audio adjustment time and now I love the Bricasti direct so investing time is a very good idea. I am wicked impatient though... lol
I've done ok though. I was able to hold off on the Pre until I got my new speakers like everyone told me to do which for me was good.
Also, I sold all my SET tube gear and my analog rig and cables and carts so I wanted to put that money back into audio products before it vanished into bills, life, etc. Atleast if I get something I don't love I can flip it - if I spend the money on something else then poof it's gone forever... lol
thanks for the sound advice! |
I just want to thank you for questimation what a fantastic word! Also a bit of general advice, slow down just a bit. I know it's exciting to get new gear but you seem to be making changes at a pretty breakneck pace. Take a little time live with your new speakers, get used to the sound and get the right preamp. You may save yourself money, time, and future rounds of upgrades. Either way have fun and happy listening!
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MAGICO S5 LOUDSPEAKERS have landed. Wow these are like nothing I've ever heard and owned and used. I am going to need to do much work to set up.
Guys - I am kind of lost??
Any idea about set up - tow in the like. The smallest change makes such a difference. Not really in the bass but in everything else got my work cut out of me.
Few Notes: Rethm Saadhana V3 Speakers are different but same quality for sure. Some thing they do better, some things much better and others similar others Magico's better but they are absolutely are in the same class.
Its apparent right out of the gate. I love the Magico's and I am sure once I get use to them will like them more but this speaker search has me listen and shop and research so many speakers. The world needs to know that Rethm Saadhana V3 Speakers are better than 93% of the other speakers out there (my questimaton of course) but if you took focus groups and all that I but that number will stand up. So excited for my new speakers because I love new exciting audio thinks but this made me realize again and confirmed just how good the Rethms really are!
Tube - preamp. Yes those of you that said to match Magico with Tube preamp seems right on the mark. I think a tube pre will be a better match.
Down to:
BAT VK-51SE
BAT VK-32SE
CJ ET3SE
CJ CT-6
Any thoughts - think I'm leaning toward the
BAT VK-32SE
I called BAT they said its the sweetest of the BATS and have same bass and dynamics as the others. The 51SE a little more neutral but the Magico's seem to be looking for a bit of sweetening.
Thoughts
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