Let me add that the metallic drawer of the MPS-5 not only is noisy, but its a death trap for CDs.
If you somehow miss even slightly the ideal placement of the disc, and its easy to miss as the tray is recessed, then its scratch city.
I cant believe that this doesnt appear in any review. It makes inserting discs a real painful exercise. |
Just for the record, my MPS-5 is not noisy. I can hear it spin up on starting, but "so what?" The noise does not interfere with my listening pleasure one iota. |
Ok so i have a noisy one then, lucky me.
When on mute, I can hear the transport noise from 10 feet away (start, stop and reading track). I can hear start, stop and skip from the other side of the room (18 feet).
Cheers
Xavier |
The MPS-5 does not use a VRDS transport; it uses a VOSP transport from Esoteric (which are completely different; you can read about the different transports from Esoteric on their website). In any case, the VOSP transport is not noisy in my experience unless you put your ear within six inches to a foot of the mechanism. From any normal listening distance, the VOSP mechanism in my EMM Labs XDS1 is inaudible and I would expect the same is true of the mechanism in the MPS-5, unless the transport is not properly isolated from the chasis. |
Badwisdom, there appears to exist some variability in the noiseprint of TEAC transports.... Within exactly the same model, some units are a little noisy, while others are dead quite. Coincidentally, all the MPS-5 units I have heard featured totally quiet transports. |
Hey guidocorona,
I know it's purely mechanical and doesn't directly affect sound, I'm just so surprised that the transport is described by everyone as quiet in operation when it so clearly never is !
People base purchasing decisions base on online reviews and should know that the mps-5 has a noisy transport. Maybe it's not noisy as others (emm labs springs to mind) but it's not "dead quiet", not even when reading the disk.
Hey amfibius,
I actually like doing break in in real time, I'm in no particular hurry and actually relish taking my time discovering slowly the audio improving :) |
Badwisdom, MPS-5 utilizes a VRDS TEAC transport mechanism. Some TEAC transport units can be a little mechanically noisy.... Such noise is not transmitted to electrical signals, and never results in a deteriorated sonic performance. G. |
Hi Xavier, I too bought an MPS-5 after umm-ing and ahh-ing about it for a few years (see my initial post in 2008 in this thread!). Part of the reason for the delay was an unconvincing demonstration early in 2010 of a player which was brand new out of the box with no burn-in. It sounded closed in, thin, and brittle - exactly as you described. I had a repeat demonstration in November last year of a burnt-in player and it easily trounced anything else I have ever heard.
You have made a very good decision. But if you are impressed with the sound now, wait till it hits the 500 hour mark. I recommend that you hook it up to your computer as a DAC, and leave it running 24/7. 500 hours of non-stop running time is about 16 days ... |
Hey everyone,
have just bought a MPS-5. Was very intrigued by the approach taken by Playback Designs and ive always been a sucker for original and innovative audio .
Ive been listening for just under 50 hours, so its a bit early for a definitive opinion and im going to wait a few weeks to get rid of new buyer enthusiasm which kinda always taints one's objectivity.
Lets just say that it's the most organic and classy sounding player i've ever own (previous players include Audio Aero, Accuphase, Wadia). I listen to a variety of musical genres, from classical to hard rock: everything ive thrown at it was a revelation. Im very bad at analogies and i find them overused, but i'll still do it: it was like listening to music coated with honey without the syrup.
Although it's a bit thin and closed in, this is normal for a brand new unit. Its supposed to go 3D at around 200 hours (wow, cant wait for that).
I cant believe there's 300 hours of break in to go which should make this player even better !!
Important note for all you MPS-5 potential buyers out there: ive seen reviews saying this unit is quiet operation, it is NOT. It makes a very audible motor and spinning noise when starting and stopping tracks. It is less audible when playing, but its still more noisy than most CD players out there. So if you're sitting right next to your rig, this might be a problem.
Cheers
Xavier |
Playback Designs now has a web site at: Playback Designs web siteFor owners, theres a firmware update allowing 24/192 input. Dave |
Hi SoundsReal, I visited your suite with Dave Stephens. . . probably before you had an opportunity of doing final fine tuning of speaker positioning. . . . Rather, I'd love to visit your shop next time I travel to Denver, and listen to your fine equipment in the SoundsReal optimized environment. Guido |
Guido
I know you spent a little time in our room, I can't remember when you came by however and I thought the sound didn't settle in until late Friday. What were your thoughts? |
Dave is correct, I own neither MPS-5 nor Esoteric tristack; rather, my CDp is the single box TEAC X-01 Limited, which I have not had the opportunity of comparing directly to PD as yet. Given the various unfavorable circumstances of the session, all I can say is that in the end I had some distinct but not overwhelming sonic/musical preference for TEAC tristack over PD, and that both players are amazingly good in their own right.
It is also worth pointing out that, as I have used exclusively X-01 LE for a few years, I may have developed some affinity for the TEAC house sound.
In final analysis, if I had no budget constraints, I would go for TEAC P03/D03/G0Rb (yes, with the higher end Rubidium clock, which according to Tim Krable of TEAC yields even higher sonic performance than G03); If I were 'budget' conscious I would be excited to obtain the PD MPS-5; and finally, as in reality I have 0 budget for a new front end, I will stick to my trusted old X-01 Limited for a spell longer. Guido |
If you search this site and www.audioasylum.com you'll find a ton of discussion. Also, there's a review at Positive Feedback. I'm hoping that some non-owners that heard the PD at RMAF will add their comments. Guido's a non-owner.
So far, based on personal accounts sent to me by users here and at the asylum, it's replaced Emm, AMR, Marantz and Esoteric (single-box) in user systems.
Unfortunately the Esoteric system's speakers were not properly set up and our time was limited and we couldn't take the Esoteric to another, better room; therefore, I think we've said about all we can say in fairness.
I'm comfortable with my report that the Esoteric needed to be in DSD mode and connected with balanced ICs and then it got very close. Because of the system's limited bass response our report is incomplete, even for a preliminary report. Others, sitting behind us in the same room, were hearing the same things and, in fact, one was a dealer and inquired about how to contact the PD distributor.
Dave |
Dave & Guido,
I am looking for that last digital purchase (I am 55) and it sounds like if I read both of your last answers correctly that the Playback Designs was very close to Esoteric 3 box combo. If that is right the Playback must be quite impressive. Any other input on the your Playback vs. Esoteric listening.
Thanks. |
Marantz SA7S1 in the Soundings room was impressive for a new player that was essentially just out of the box. . . Id did display some understandable slight roughness in the mid treble and a slight propensity for congestion that was already largely abated by the end of the show. . . however the MPS-5 still sounded more 'complete', resolving, with clearer imaging/staging/harmonic exposure. . . seemed similar in authority/headroom. . . it will be interesting to compare the two when both devices are fully broken in.
Comparison of MPS-5 with Esoteric P03/D03/G03 stack was a little difficult to say the least. Esoteric suite had sub optimal speaker placement that generate some brightness at the top and a less than satisfactory bass. Furthermore, we did not have sufficient Esoteric wiring to have completely satisfactory ICs on tristac and PD. . . so we used Cardas Golden Ref between PD and Esoteric C03 linestage and between D03 and C03.
Within the limitations and artifacts outlined above, what were heard were 2 amazingly good digital front ends once the Esoteric tristack was optimized for balanced operations and upsampled to DSD. While I may have subjectively perceived some advantages in clarity, expansive staging, imaging, and harmonic exposure from the Esoteric, we should consider that the tristack with the non Rubidium G03 clock and the additional ICs and PCs costs over 4 times the Playback Designs MPS-5. Besides, MPS-5 has USB server support today, while Esoteric was showcasing prototype USB support capability that will not be available for sale until CES. G. |
Well, the PD did very well at the 2008 RMAF in Soundings and Sounds Real's rooms.
At Soundings there as an A-B with the very nice looking Marantz SA7. The Marantz had only 100-hours on it by Sunday, but the PD was much more dynamic, imaged more naturally and had better bottom to top balance. I was in the room when about 8 wittnessed the switch from the Marantz to the PD and all preferred the PD and heard the improvement immediately and clearly.
The was no A-B in the Sounds Real room, but the sound was very nice with Wilson Benesch speakers. The speakers were not coupled with the room like I'd like, so the bass was a little reserved, but the mids and highs were crystal clear, transparent and wonderful.
We hauled the PD around to the Esoteric room to compare to the 3-box Esoteric stack. The PD was superior until the Esoteric was put into the DSD mode rather than PCM and balanced interconnects were added, then it got very, very close. Those speakers were not coupled to the room either, so bass was totally lacking, leading to an incomplete comparison; however, based on what I could hear, the Esoteric is a very nice sounding and physically attractive unit. It's too close to call without further listening in a full range system.
I'm hoping that a few others will add their observations, particularly those that were able to A-B with the Marantz.
Dave |
Ouch, Best Buy isn't going to have anything worth while. I'll loan you a few SACDs, including a few of the "demo" discs from Telarc and Chesky and then some "real" music with brass, orchestra, etc.
It's very informative to compare the RBCD and SACD layers. The PD brings them very close together, but I still prefer the SACD. On a lesser machine the difference is much greater.
Dave |
No vinyl in the room this year. We have in the past but this year we are going to focus on the electronics. deHavilland and Playback Designs. In past years listeners come in our room and always ask "what kind of speakers are those", asking about the Wilson bensch. What many don't seem to get is that no matter how good the speakers without deHavilland electronics, the room might just sound ordinary. Check out their show reports on their website. This year should be even better with the MPS-5.
I put another 50 hours on it and listened again and as the Beatles used to say, "I have to admit it's getting better". I am going to keep burning it in until Thursday, move in day at the show, so it should be ready for prime time.
Sorry about the vinyl but take a listen and you might decide the MPS-5 is satisfying enough to compare to a very a good vinyl set up.
I don't have any SACD's. Ouch! Probably to late to order any but if you can recommend one or two "must haves" I can stop at Best Buy and grab a couple.
Friday and Saturday from about 5 pm until we drop, we are going to have change out speakers and amps so people can hear what ever combination they want and also encourage listening to their CD/SACD's. Coors light is possible.
See you at the show and please say high. |
Mike makes a great point. Before the MPS-5 I listend to LP and SACD whenever given a choice over CD. Now that preference is almost neutralized. (I still prefer SACD slightly). My vinyl set up isn't anywhere near the level of Mike's, but very nice. I still love my LPs, but my preference for 45 rpm LPs greatly diminished and now I only buy LP if it includes special packaging or a special mastering.
Jim, you've probably got something in multiple formats, but, if not, let me know and I'll add it to my list of things to bring.
Dave |
Jim, will you have any vinyl in that room to compare to the MPS-5? in my room the vinyl reference really shows how special the MPS-5 really is.
i'll be looking forward to hearing the MPS-5 in your room. |
Thank you Jim, I am looking forward to meeting you next week and auditioning PD! Guido |
First a disclaimer. I am a dealer in Colorado.
I have been looking for a high quality player for a few years, having never been convinced that the expensive ones were worth anywhere near the asking price. A friend mentioned the Play Back Designs. He said there were some reviews on Audiogon. I contacted Dave and he was willing to bring one by for me to listen to but to fast forward a little I called Jonathan and in about 3 weeks one showed up at the door.
I have placed the MPS-5 in with a pair of Wilson benesch Curves loudspeakers and the deHavilland integrated 845 amplifier, the Ios. Let things warm up a little bit and sat down for a listen. Well the music that came out of that system was really remarkable. The Curves came to life in way I have never heard them do. They tend to be a little warm and very involving. With MPS-5 in the system everything that I value was there. A very rich and weighty presentation with terrific tonal quality, the 845 Ios amp has these qualities and they now showed more improvement. Voices sound exactly like they are supposed to. The extension of the MPS-5 at both ends is remarkable, it changed/improved the sound of those speakers in a way I didn't think was possible. The one thing that really stood out is the soundstage and imaging. Voices with all the nuances are placed on the stage with the most life like realism I have ever heard.
This unit did have some hours on it but only a few so I am running it while I am writing this and will listen again over the weekend.
I was hoping to bring a really good player to our room at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest this year and this is it. Will have more to say after some more break in time.
Jim |
Yeah, and be sure to bring your own music. |
Dave, That's a good thing! When one room gets crowded or you don't like their choice of music, you have another place to listen. |
Soundings will be at the Marriott in the Tower, suites 505 and 507. See:
http://audiofest.net/2008/exhibitors_profile.php?gbID=593&Sid=76c8d7440681758282b649c1dbc7a111 |
Ronnjay, that's correct, AND you can hear the PD in the Soundings room, through a Rowland/Vienna Acoustics system. Also, at Soundings, you can compare the PD to the Marantz 7S1. Soundings is a dealer for Marantz and Sounds Real is a dealer for PD.
If you're really interested in the PD, you owe it to yourself to listen in both available systems. I suspect that Sound Real will have a Wilson Benesch system. Audio Federation will have the Emm player and, I'm almost certain, with a little looking you'll be able to hear and AMR and a dCS, among others. |
For the fortunate Agoners going to RMAF this year, I have just found out that you will be able to hear the Playback Designs MPS-5 CD/SACD player in the Conifer 1 room on main floor. Sounds Real Audio will have this room again this year. Should be worth a listen. |
Has anyone heard or compared the APL NWO3.0? to any of these? |
Thanks, that very good information Radioheadokplayer. I hope you don't mind if I link the Asylum over to your comments here. I suspect that your findings are in line with what David Robinson will report when he gets around to comparing to the Marantz.
I'm trying to track one down for my own comparison, but that may take a few weeks.
Dave |
Let me just weigh in with my simple observations as I sold my marantz 7SA-S1 and bought the playback designs player. In my humble opinion, the marantz is nowhere near as good as the playback design.
I had owned the emmlabs 2 piece dcc2 se and cdsd se but sold it because the transport was too noisy to keep it at that price point. I sold it and bought a dartzeel preamplifier to go along with my dartzeel amplifier and with the money I saved I bought the marantz 7SA-S1.
In the plus column, the Marantz 7SA-S1 is built like a tank, the transport is quiet not noisy, and the display does give album information for the sacds. The downside with the marantz is that its too mellow. Sure it does not sound harsh and digital as many players do but if you want to listen to rock music its the wrong way to go. If you like folk, pop, or jazz its really quite nice especially for the price. The playback design works wonderfully for all types of music easily besting the marantz at rock and is still a ways better at jazz and pop. The playback also has the build quality and quiet transport. The playback is superior to the emm labs providing a much more seamless presentation of the music. The emm labs was a bit harsher and more dry and analytical. The playback sounded a lot more like the better attributes of vinyl with the advantages of digital.
Look my pocketbook wanted to keep the marantz but the ears don't lie. The marantz is real good, the emm labs is even better, but the playback is the best that I heard. I have not heard the dcs two piece system but can't afford it anyhow! |
Lula, I have little doubt that PF will ultimately post a follow up addressing your question. It's his style to start with a Preliminary Impression and then come forth with further details. He said very little about RBCD performance, which I consider a strength of the PD, so something's going on there, I suspect.
I'm interested to see if those Marantz lovers on the Asylum post some follow up details. It wasn't quite as bad as, "Marantz rules, PD sux, dude" but they haven't been forthcoming with any meaningful dialogue so far.
Dave |
I went on to Audio Asylum and found someone posing the same question re-
garding the lack of comparison to the Marantz player. There's also someone,
along with 2 friends, who did an MPS-5 and Marantz 7SA-S1 comparison and found the latter to be the winner. As I recall in PF, Dr. Sardonicus preferred
the Marantz to the EMM player, which according to most people is somewhat
different but equal to the EMM separates. I have heard none of these but am
certainly interested in the Marantz. I wonder if anyone has compared any of these machines with the Audio Research Ref 7, which I am very familiar with. |
Dave, I always go to Denver for Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, I'm the one that's supplied show coverage for Audiogon since the very first show.
I would love to visit, provided it's not imposing on plans you already have in place. Email me and we can trade phone numbers.
Also, regarding Dave Robinson. He has been offered a wonderful new job opportunity and it's taken quite a bit of his time recently. I won't discuss here, until I find out if it's proper for me to do so.
Perhaps Dave will drop in here or has posted comments already at Audio Asylum. |
I don't know if Robinson watches here, but he does watch the Asylum. If you ask your question there, he might answer there, OR you could correspond directly with PF.
I suspect it was because he'd previously put the Emm two-box unit at the top of his pecking order, so that's what he compared to. Also, he labels the review as "First Impressions" so maybe there's more to come.
Dave |
I read the PF review....why wasn't the Marantz player-a PF favorite-alluded to
and shown in the review, compared to the Playback designs??? |
Thanks Albert.
BTW, Frontier has some great flights to Denver from DFW. Several Texan A'goners are coming in for the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest (two blocks from my home). It'd be fun to have a nice Italian dinner at a great place I frequent just blocks from the sight. Anyway, let us know if you decide to pop in.
Dave |
An absolutely excellent job all around Dave. Thanks for your wonderful contribution.
Wish I could hear this machine, maybe someday I'll call Tinn and ask about it. |
David Robinson of Positive Feedback added his review at: Positive Feedback Review of MPS-5I agree with everything said; however, I think there should have been more comment on the MPS-5's CD playback, which I consider to be one of its strongest points. You expect it to deliver on SACDs, which it does, but the upsampling of CD bring that media amazingly close to SACD. Still, it's a great review. Dave |
I am using the Bnc with the playback to darzeel
The Bnc is still breaking in but already sounds better than the audioquest Colorado RCA (absolute sound golden ear 2008 winner) that I was using before |
We can see BNC analogue outputs at the Audio Federation MPS-5 rear pictures - are they intented to drive the 50 ohm inputs of the Dartzeel NHB-18NS preamplifier using the special Dartzeel interconnects? |
Won't miss it for the World! Guido |
You'll be able to hear the MPS-5 for yourself at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest this October. Look for it in the Soundings/Rowland/Sumiko high-end room (they'll have two rooms). It'll be the source in the system demonstrating the new Vienna Acoustics "The Music" reference speakers, driven by Jeff Rowland Design Group equipment, hopefully including their new Criterion battery powered pre-amp.
There won't be any A-Bing with the competition, but you can listen to the PD and go to other rooms to hear Emm, dCS and others that are certain to be there.
The Democrats just proved that Denver's pretty easy to get to, so plan to come and listen.
Dave |
Here are a few things that I'd do different if doing this comparo again and only had an hour to an hour and a half:
First, I'd avoid Pink Floyd and Radiohead. As much fun as they are to listen to, they're chocked so full of purposely out of phase signals and flying voices and electronic noises that you can't evaluate what's "right". These albums sounded so different on these two players that it was mesmerizing, but not real useful.
Next, or really first, match levels. We didn't do this and it's really critical. The machines clearly had different output levels, yet we simply adjusted by ear, a real no-no.
Next, set up both players with equivalent ICs so that you can move back and forth with ease. Physically switching is a chore and reduced the comparative analysis that we might have otherwise done.
Limit your listening to three or four discs, each with a purpose. On CDs, this needs to include one loaded with glare on lesser machines to see what magic is done, if any. Another disc should focus on midrange accuracy, so a female vocal, either a cappella or with a small group. Next, listen to a BIG orchestral piece that has micro dynamics and blockbuster sound. (I love Mahler for this). Focus on both ends of the dynamic spectrum. Include a really densely scored disc to see how the lines stay separate, or not. (Mahler is good again). Include a solo piano disc with big dynamcis.
When possible, listen in balanced and unbalanced modes. (Both were unbalanced in this case, despite the PD's balanced mode excellence.)
On a hybrid SACD compare the CD layer and SACD layer on both machines.
We could have done that in an hour, IF we'd been focused on getting it done and had all the needed parts. We spent too much time enjoying music and didn't "work" hard enough.
The goal should be to identify performance in both CD and SACD modes, balanced and unbalanced, and comment on balance, musicality, micro and macro dynamics, timbral presentation and, above all, never use the word PRaT. (Just kidding Mike).
Given way more luxurious time, I'd run the transport of one through the DAC of the other and vice versa, if possible (the Emm doesn't allow this). I've found this useful for hearing differences between DACs and transports.
With more time, I'd also pull in the Pink Floyd and Radiohead and do some phrase by phrase comparisons to see what's happen, or at least be able to say, "this one did this and the other one did that."
Finally, with more time I'd just spend...more time, seeing where the investigation leads me and just enjoying the process.
Dave |
Bar81, I totally agree with your assertions about bias, but given that, how can you then turn around and coclude "...that the PBD isn't nearly the world beater..." I don't think there's enough information to conclude anything, other than it's a contender.
When a less biased review comes along, if ever, then we'll know, OR you can listen for yourself and judge for yourself, which I've fortunate enough to do.
Now, if I can compare to dCS and AMR and maybe one or two others, like modded Esoterics, then I'll have more conclusive, but biased, opinion. Making those head-to-head comparisons are harder than you might think.
Dave |
Of course, but who is without bias; not the dealer of a line (e.g., AF), not the owner of equipment (e.g., you) and not the owner of other equipment (e.g., me).
The comments don't convince me that the Emm is better than the PBD; rather, they are enough to determine that the PBD isn't nearly the world beater it's been made out to be - it's a good CDP at its price point; nothing more. |
Keep in mind how much AF has vested in the Emm. |
Interesting. As one would have thought, the MPS-5 isn't the end all; but, rather, is a good player at its pricepoint. |
Audio Federation has added their reactions to the comparison at their Blog Check it out. Dave |
Mike of Audio Federation took some nice, detailed pictures of the PD MPS-5 that you may want to see. Also, they've said that they'll soon be adding their impressions of this same session. Dave |
