Phono stages: Hagerman and Sun Valley 1616 possible giant killers

@mulveling oops. Thanks for the correction. That’s embarrassing. I always assumed Hagerman was a genius for pulling that off without FETs and using 6 tubes instead of the usual 3 in MM amps. Ah well...

@noromance Clever as Hagerman is, all-tube MC amplification to 70dB+ is simply going to involve a good bit of noise, and lots of stress over tube selection! Aesthetix is the only brand I’ve seen attempt that, and I don’t have experience with them to share.

I believe the extra tubes (4x 12AX7) are for balanced circuitry in the RIAA stage. Older Trumpets also had a balanced output stage topology (4x 12au7), and the original Trumpet could be optionally ordered with XLR ins/outs - though very few were made this way, for some reason (probably, there were fewer preamps with XLRs back then!).

And no worries I’ve made lots of mistakes and misspeaks over the years - fortunately this is a forum for audio opinions & experiences, not a scientific journal :)

Electrostatic "direct drive" headphone amplifiers share a similar need for massive gain - usually 60dB - and most of them have a FET front-end for most of their gain. There are only a couple exceptions. I’ve used this on a vinyl source and it’s kind of mind blowing to think about the 120+ dB of total gain from stylus to headphone stators in these cases, and how it works AT ALL, much less how well it does.

@mulveling oops. Thanks for the correction. That’s embarrassing. I always assumed Hagerman was a genius for pulling that off without FETs and using 6 tubes instead of the usual 3 in MM amps. Ah well...

@rivinyl 

I would definitely give Zesto a look/listen.  Never heard but almost went with a Andros II.

I have an EAR 834 clone and its warm sounding so maybe the newer EAR like the Classic or 88PB?

Warmest I've had was the Tavish Adagio, but its also two box.

I have a PH9.0XT and with Reflector and Siemens its pretty good.  Probably not as warm as you'd like, but not as clinical as the stock tubes.

sorry I couldn't respond via PM

thx.. i know @bkeske aka Brian @noromance also a Brian… I haven’t heard Brian K Hagerman but believe he has found a CBS Hytron he loves w variety of carts including a Benz.

Maybe he will weigh in

Welcome to another episode of Life of Brians….

Strong endorsement for sure!

Generally i agree with @mulveling . Jim Hagerman is living his best audio and music life on Island time. Very high value music and well engineered gear. The OP could stretch and get an ARC Ref phono 2 se or any number of super phono stages Lamm, CJ, Herron, etc… where you won’t have to imagine giant killer status.. ( i own 2 of the above )… but if my budget was constrained near $1K and i wanted tubes, the Hagerman would be on the list…

OP,

"Do you think the Hagerman competes with phono stages in the 3-5 K price range?"

Absolutely: "good enough, DONE"

Speaker/Amp/Preamp/Sources: in that order I keep rejecting ... until I achieve ’involving, dynamic, revealing yet relaxed’.

My MX110z’s phono, my friend’s Hagerman Phono, I think either are end game/stop looking, if it breaks just get another one: thus they are equal to anything at any price even though I haven’t heard the other choices.

Done for Now: If my good enough (had to have remote volume and sound as good as my prior Fisher 80az tube mono blocks), Cayin A88T amp broke, it would be a total ’now what?’ research situation (limited by my need for 16 ohm taps).

Done. If my Sony xa5400es sacd player died, my MX110z tube tuner preamp died, my TT81 died; my Acos Lustre GST-801 tonearm died, my X2000R Reel to Reel; my Mitsubishi LT5V Vertical TT or Luxman SQ-N150 Integrated Amp died: I would search for money not bother with any research, just gather $, whatever it cost to get another one.

Only scarcity would force me to research, luckily, age 76, I have the patience and alternate equipment to keep listening while searching/waiting.

/////////////////////////////////

My friend may one day want to try a low output MC cartridge, and I imagine he, like me, would use a SUT so he can keep his ’done’ Hagerman Cornet2 MM Tube Phono stage. He could get the Hagerman Trumpet MM/MC discussed here, expect very similar sound,

but he has an early Cornet 2 Kit and it has a rectifier tube. seller sent him a variety of good but used tubes, including 3 different rectifier tubes. We were both quite surprised how much difference the rectifier tubes made. I never experienced that with my Fisher 80az 5V4 rectifier tubes which I checked twice a year and renewed a few times over the nearly 50 years I used them before selling them to Steve at VAS. That's how you know for sure that tubes last a long long time.

No longer posting but @bkeske was impressed with the 6 tube MC version of the Trumpet—especially after rolling in Telefunkens etc. Note that as it’s a tube MC section, likely a little noisier than FET or SUT.

Trumpet MC actually uses a FET based MC stage / buffer, derived from his Piccolo head amp. The 6 tubes are all for the RIAA stage plus output. That said, its input MC stage is in fact higher in noise floor than you’d get from a much more expensive FET stage (Pass Labs, Herron, etc). But it still sounds very good - neutral, but not at all analytical or dry. As per Jim, it’s not bypassed for the lowest gain setting (MM) - it acts as a 0-gain buffer! Hence extra justification for the Trumpet MM model, for those who wish to use their own SUT.

No longer posting here but @bkeske was impressed with the 6 tube MC version of the Trumpet—especially after rolling in Telefunkens etc. Note that as it’s a tube MC section, likely a little noisier than FET or SUT.

Her name is Kara Chaffee, DeHavilland is the brand, and yes she is happily retired.

+1 for Hagerman, his service is peerless which may swing the purchase in his direction.

Of course, if you play 78s, as I do, the Hagerman Archiver would be the natural competition to the 1616.

I hate the "giant killers" trope because they almost never are. But I love & recommend Hagerman’s phono gear at every price point. His curent line is built to a (very low) price point, with the requisite sacrifices made (like SMPS). BUT they are still superb, and highly musical. There’s nothing else like the Trumpet MC at its price, and the Trumpet MM should be killer too if you wish to use an external SUT or headamp (including his own excellent Piccolos).

I’m also quite fond of his older models with more upscale build & parts (and linear PSUs), if you can find them - particularly the Trumpets.

The Trumpet was originally designed with fully balanced, all tube circuitry, as evidenced by its 8 tubes (4x 12ax7, 4x 12au7). It’s not SS with a (useless) tube buffer tacked on like most others at this price point. He’s simplified the output stage to lower price in the current MC version (2x 12au7 instead of 4x in the old Trumpets), but I believe its core circuitry (before the output stage) is still balanced, including the Piccolo-derived front-end for MC gain. The Cornet is a simplified version / circuit without any balanced circuitry.

The Trumpets are warm, open sounding phono stages with extremely satisfying bass response. You get a good dose of "classic" tube sound, and they respond very well to tube rolling. If you’re looking for maximum detail, lowest noise floor, and razer-sharp edge definition, these are not for you. However, those looking for satisfaction primarily via natural musicality should give them a try, and I think it can beat many in the $3 - 5K range on that front. It is definitely more "classic tube" souding than Rogue Ares Magnum and Herron VTPH-2A (or ARC Reference 3SE for that matter, though that has a GREAT tube stage). Also, the Trumpet MC will pair beautifully to almost any cartridge.

No worries.  Thanks for the clarification!

Do you think the Hagerman competes with phono stages in the 3-5 K price range?

OP, Others,

Sorry I confused these two brands, I was trying to share my enthusiasm, and still do, for both

Kara deHavilland talked for a long time with my friend, he agreed to wait until she could get the specific transformer she wanted to use, she agreed and built the tube preamp for my friend in 2023.

http://www.dehavillandhifi.com/UltraVerve-Preamplifier.htm

and I confused his vintage Hagerman Cornet2

(no 2nd ’O’, a tube phono kit built by former owner) as a deHavilland, somehow I thought he got both pieces from Kara.

factory assembled Hagerman Cornet Tube Phono, MM

Both tube, both sound wonderful in my and his system. He has Hagerman Tube Phono to deHavilland Tube Preamp to big McIntosh SS amp with monster meters to JSE Infinite Slope Model II’s that he restored. Here we listened via my Tube Cayin amp, comparing favorably to my McIntosh MX110z Tube Tuner Preamp’s MM Phono, using my Fidelity Research FRT-4 SUT to hear my MC

OP is mentioning Hagerman's TRUMPET Tube MM/MC Phono, the Trumpet adds MC capability, otherwise the innards/RIAA is identical to the Cornet MM Phono.

Hagerman Trumpet Tube Phono MM and MC

so sorry to derail this to confusion

Two things:

I am pretty sure Kara DeHavilland is happily retired and that she did not make a straight phono stage (unfortunately ).

Are the Darlington Labs phono stages "tubey" or warm sounding?

No experience with the Trumpet.

I have built a Bugle and Cornet.

I fully expect the Trumpet to compete with next level phono stages.

If you are not set on tubes, check out Darlington Labs.

I don't think that Kara ever designed a phono stage called the Coronet 2 (she is within driving distance of me). I believe that is a Hagerman phono preamp.

@elliottbnewcombjr 

dehavilland doesn’t even mention a phono preamp on their website.

I highly recommend deHavilland

My friend bought two deHavilland tube pieces, brought them here, he is very familiar with my equipment/system sound. We love both of them here and at his house playing thru my old JSE Infinite Slope Model II's.

he ordered and waited for this Preamp

http://www.dehavillandhifi.com/UltraVerve-Preamplifier.htm

he found and bought a vintage dehavilland Cornet2 Tube Phono. The current tube phono is different, his had a rectifier tube, the current one does not.

I would expect it and other of her products to sound terrific.