Phono Preamp. With transformer or fully active

I'm using a jensen SUT with a tavish design Tubed phono stage (mm input). This is paired with the hana el low output mc. The hana is a good match to the jensen, hana calls for greater than 400 ohms, the jensen is at 430 ohms. 

I read  discussions in External SUT’s being used and phono stages with built in transformers ?

I thought the OP asked for a phono stage with built-in SUTs.

As for external SUT I found this model very usefull for all cartridges. 

denon au-320 is very nice, 2 inputs, 3 ohm or 40 ohm gain/loading options, and PASS

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DENON-AU-320-step-up-transformer-mc-moving-coil-cartridges-junk-products-phono/383631324085?hash=item59523573b5:g:f6QAAOSwhtNecvwE

this one, with transformers many people respect, including Bill, has 4 different values set by switch combinations, only 1 input, no PASS for MM (it has only 1 input, so not needed).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Moving-Coil-Phono-Step-Up-Transformer-Cinemag-3440AH-4-Ratios-1-9-1-36-MC-SUT/124263990235?hash=item1ceeb603db:g:pwAAAOSwdehfBJnw

the EAR MC4, used, 4 variations, via 4 separate sets of inputs, 3/6/12/40 ohms inputs, no PASS, only 1 input, compared to the Fidelity Research it seems poorly thought out, clumsy, were switches thought horrible things?

https://www.willhaben.at/iad/kaufen-und-verkaufen/d/ear-mc4-step-up-transformer-390620595/

a few Fidelity Research FRT-4 are out there

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=frt-4

I used a Lundahl amorphous core silver transformer and liked it very much. As Mulveling said, they are not as warm as some others - but the clarity! Then I built my own phono/pre, and built a lot of gain into it, so now run my Koetsu platinum direct.

Differences are just an added touch of clarity, added touch of warmth, and added touch of dynamics. So I use the MM input and run the volume at 3 o'clock. Still black silent as a tomb, so there's no down side. But I suspect that if I was using a FET input stage instead of aerospace bipolar (or vintage 6922's), the Lundahl would be notably better.

lewm

I think you switched things inadvertently, the 30 ohm input is 18.27 xf, I prefer the 10 ohm setting which is 20.68 xf

actual #s from FRT-4 specs:

3 ohm input: xf 35.84; gain 31db, .3mv = 10.8mv, impedance load 37 ohms

10 ohm input: xf 20.68; gain 26db; .3mv = 6.3mv, impedance load 110 ohms

30 ohm input: xf 18.27; gain 25db; .3mv = 5.4mv, impedance load 141 ohms

100 ohm input: xf 10.55; gain 20db; .3mv = 3.3mv, impedance load 423 ohms

Elliot, Not that it matters one iota to the performance of your system, but I get a reflected input impedance of 145 ohms (not 110 ohms), for your 1:18 step-up ratio into a fixed 47K ohm load resistance on your Mc phono stage.  And a step-up voltage of 5.4mV, not 6.3mV.  This is assuming that when you write "10 ohm/18X", you mean to say that you are using a 1:18 step up ratio.  Like I said, the numbers are so close that the differences don't matter, but I wonder how you made the calculations. 

Do you have a MM phono input now or phono preamp now, MM and/or MC? Options?

I recently asked for help here, 3 separate threads, and got good advice as usual

I started by looking for a separate Phono Preamp for my office, 2 TT, wanted two inputs, for 2 MM cartridges.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/phono-eq-small-inexpensive-two-phono-inputs

I bought the Cambridge Audio Alva Duo, nice features

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07932QK4N/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Then I bought this inexpensive Pyle, MM only

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PYLE-PRO-PP999-Phono-Turntable-Pre-Amplifier/362969672529?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Pyle’s MM sound was the same as the Cambridge, my plans changed to only 1 TT in office, kept the Pyle, returned the Cambridge. If I needed 2 TT, the Cambridge has nice features for not too much money.

...........................................

Then Bill tempted me into the MC world.

I checked cartridge specs: new; vintage; damaged to be fixed by Steve at VAS, and chose a new Audio Technica for my first MC cartridge, AT33PTG-II, I absolutely love it.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00475S0BU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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My McIntosh Tube Tuner/Preamp mx110z from the 60’s has two MM Inputs, and it sounds great, so why skip it with a new external phono stage if a SUT would boost signal enough for my existing MM inputs?

sooo, Which SUT (I started knowing zero, ended very well informed). In that thread, I posted links to various SUTS with various features, as well as the others members suggested.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/which-sut-for-3mv-10-ohms-mc-cartridge-into-3mv-mm-input-sensiti

I like options for the future, and have two tonearms, so 1 MM arm, 1 MC Arm. PASS lets you use the SUT as a switch for MM, so 2 cartridges into 1 phono input.

After learning, and finding this Fidelity Research’s options and features, and preferring Vintage, I took a chance on it, glad I did.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fidelity-research-FR-FRT-4-Toroidal-Transformer-In-Excellent-Condition/333648114135?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

3 separately selectable inputs, 4 selectable gain options, and PASS.

I plunked it down, zero noise. compared my new MC to my existing MM via PASS.

Yesterday I moved it to 3 other locations to find noise, could not do it.

10 ohm 21x, and 30 ohm 18x gain choices are very good for this cartridge. Bill, Arne and I all preferred the 10 ohm/21x factor setting for my .3mv/10 ohm cartridge, which gives 6.3mv sig (before losses), 110 ohm load to 47k phono input. (all gibberish to me before learning from members here). That leaves me a very high gain 36x and a low gain 11x option for the future.

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Answer: if you don’t have a phono stage, a flexible one, MM PASS, MC with optional gain (front or internal switches, not resistors) would be nice.

btw: I borrowed my friends highly regarded Rowland Preamp, it was huge, a separate power supply, and sadly damaged, sounded awful.

btw: Prior to this McIntosh mx110z tube tuner preamp, I had a highly regarded McIntosh SS C28 preamp, had it and my Mcintosh SS amp factory overhauled. I actually preferred the AT120 TT’s little dinky built-in phono preamp’s sound to the C38’s phono stage.

So, what sounds best? It takes trial, make sure you can return what you try.

best of luck choosing,

Elliott

A lot of SUT's offer several settings, the Denon AU-320 has two, 3 ohm and 40 ohm. The Fidelity Research FRT-4 that Elliott just purchased has 4 settings so it covers a large range of carts.
A lot of hum and noise can be traced to poor planning, placing it next to an amp or other high power device along with running the cables close to power cables.Both Elliott and I were careful of our installation and are happy to report totally silent operation. A SUT that is set up carefully can be much quieter than an active phono stage. The quietest active MC phono stages usually cost big bucks as well.
BillWojo

All these problems and limitations are out there and known, and that is why I have made the decision to not mess with them. Yes even knowing this means passing up the chance at discovering audio nirvana. The magic combination. Hats off to those who have. Me, I think just getting a record to play back properly is hard enough, without making it even more complicated than it has to be.

For DIYers, Jensen SUTs are also excellent, and Jensen offer technical advice on how to implement them, as do EMIA.  Bob's Devices, Lundahl, Jensen, EMIA, are only a very partial list of good companies that make SUTs. Having said that, I don't own a SUT; I do own 3 high gain phono stages that can accommodate a range of MC cartridges.

SUTs are as diverse in their sound as phono stages are (maybe even more so), so it’s difficult to put all the stages with built-in SUTs into a bucket. And as mentioned by chakster, any given SUT is not nearly as adaptable to a wide range of cartridges as a typical active MC stage would be - so when picking a SUT you generally also have to select either a single target cartridge, or a narrow window of target cartridges for best results. It’s not going to work great if you have a low output MC, medium MC, and high MC in your collection. It’s not going to work great if you have a cartridge with high coil impedance for its output level, like a Benz Ruby. You must keep that in mind when choosing a phono stage with a SUT MC stage. Of course you can always do what I do - bypass the stage’s internal SUT and use outboard SUTs of your choice coupled to its MM mode.

SUTs are generally paired with tube MM stages to keep the tube rush noise down. Kind of the "best of both worlds" approach. But there’s no reason they can’t also work great with SS MM stages - it just seems less common probably for market factors more than anything else.

In my experience, two ends of the SUT sonic spectrum would be Bob’s Devices blue label CineMags with a warm, meaty, fleshy and seductive sound - and then Lundahl LL1931 amorphous cores with a crystalline, fast, detailed sound. Both of these have found their way into many phono stages. Personally I’ve found the CineMags to work better for me so far.

I chose my VAC Renaissance phono stage because its tube MM stage was by far the best I’ve heard, even though it uses Lundahl SUTs for MC mode. I just bypass them to favor my various outboard SUTs :)

As for transformer SUT vs. active MC stage (JFET), I have definitely preferred the sound of SUT so far. It’s generally more tactile, more dynamic, more alive sounding. JFET sounds more like a reproduction to me; I feel emotionally more distant to the music (slightly). But at this point I’ve heard only a few JFET stages and have a lot more experience with SUTs.

And one annoying thing with SUTs (especially outboard) is tracking down various hum / grounding issues. At least with built-in SUTs they usually get that right for you.

With one SUT you can't use all MC cartridges, such phono stage is not universal for all MC. It will work for some of them nicely, but if your cartridge impedance is very low (2 Ohm) or very high (40 Ohm) you can't use one SUT for both of them. 

Active phono stage with optional gain and optional loading is universal, one phono stage for all MC cartridges.