Goatwuss, Empirical's solution is a good alternative, but there is still another one: Logitech/SlimDevices Transporter. It is wireless and has a wordclock input, so that you can connect it to a top-quality DAC like LessLoss with wordclock output and you'd be up there with the big boys. I have been using a Bolder-modded wireless SqueezeBox2 for more than a year and recently added a Monarchy Audio M24 preamp/DAC; the sound I'm getting is extremely good. |
Hi All,
The DAC has a separate power supply. Shouldn't that play a role in isolation? The supplied USB cable is also shielded.
David |
1. Many digital designers would agree that the noisy switching power supply in a PC-based audio can never come even close to a linear power supply, especially if R-Core power transformers are used. A "nice DAC" (or any other solution) can not help eliminating the switching power downsides. This includes a Laptop because the battery feeds a switching power supply inside. Deshapiro's DAC receives a digital stream from the PC via USB. If a fiber optic USB cable is used, the DAC is electrically isolated from the PC. If a reclocker is used in between (e.g., Empirical Audio Pace Car), then the digital signal is reclocked, reducing or eliminating any effects introduced into the digital stream from the PC. This way, PC power supply is not a factor. |
Hi Alex,
I would like to hear one. Any in Chicago? As to the technical aspects of computer power supplies, I'm in complete ignorance. I've been down the SACD road, having had 4 differnet players along the way (eg. EMM Labs, Esoteric), and I think, unfortunately , that it's a dead end. It did sound superior to my earss, but there's just not enough of the music that I like to make that a selling point. I am intrigued by the fact that your DAC can accept Hi-res off of a hard drive. The DAC that I'm using, a Wavelength Audio Crimson, can accept up to 96 (?),but I don't have any music that is encoded that way. It would bve great to be able to archive and play higher resolution music.
David |
David, I will be upgrading to the NWO 3.0GO in the near future, since I am in your area, let's get together, and play....then we BOTH could write some VALID comments. I happen to love the idea of computer based music, but, have not found "or heard"the love for it, you have. Let's play, and discover. See ya soon.
Steve
BTW, I love Gordon's stuff too. |
Hello David, However, given how good my system sounds, along with the fact that I never have to get up out of the chair, I think that I may turn into a doorstop. With all due respect to you and your fine sounding system, here are few points I'd like to introduce: 1. Many digital designers would agree that the noisy switching power supply in a PC-based audio can never come even close to a linear power supply, especially if R-Core power transformers are used. A "nice DAC" (or any other solution) can not help eliminating the switching power downsides. This includes a Laptop because the battery feeds a switching power supply inside. 2. Most audiophiles will confirm the unquestionable superiority of SACD and DVD-A over 44/16 Redbook CD, so having the world's best VRDS-NEO disc spinner capable of playing SACD, DAD, DVD-A and DVD Video is a welcomed feature, especially with close to 5000 SACD titles currently available. 4. The 32 bit/20 DACs per channel NWO-3.0GO universal digital player comes with a standard 192/24 digital input (you can actually hit it with 216/24) so you can enjoy the convenience of your PC-based HDD library while using the player as a DAC. You can also spin your SACDs, DADs, DVD-As, DVD Video and CDs on the VRDS-NEO if best results are desired. 5. The NWO-3.0GO comes with an optional Analog input so those hard-core audiophiles can spin their vinyl through it. Since the NWO has a built in remote controlled H-Attenuator, it negates the need of a preamp. I hope you can hear one soon and let us know your impressions! Regards, Alex |
Can't help noticing that the "Digital" forum is also "PC Audio" forum now, with few posts in the "PC Audio" forum. |
HI,
My point is not actually about APL. By all accounts it's a killer product. and I hope that one day I'm lucky enough to hear one. If you read my post carefully, I said that soon the "primary input" will be digital, not a CD. I think that all the effort placed into it's transport mechanism will be a waste. Of course I know that CD's will be with us for a long time. After all, look at how many there are around. However, given how good my system sounds, along with the fact that I never have to get up out of the chair, I think that I may turn into a doorstop.
David |
If any one is using one of Alex's units as a doorstop, I'd be happy to give it a very nice home here on Maui.
With all due respects,I can't understand why anyone would spend big bucks on a USB Tube DAC that can only do 16/48.
That's "A very high functioning doorstop." |
"With all due respect to Alex of APL, without some type of digital input as the PRIMARY interface, he's manufacturing a doorstop. A very high functioning one, perhaps, but a doorstop just the same."
actually, alex does offer a digital input on his players. they're also the finest sounding doorstops i've ever heard. |
As the original poster, I would like to chime in. There have been some pitfalls, but overall, I could never go back to spinning discs. The convenience factor is unbelievable. I've had to work on system synergy issues, the same as if i had swapped any new components in, but it sounds great. With all due respect to Alex of APL, without some type of digital input as the PRIMARY interface, he's manufacturing a doorstop. A very high functioning one, perhaps, but a doorstop just the same.
David |
Bigamp, yep my collection is backed up. And, I suppose you're right about hanging onto the source disc. Well, and it's against the law (obviously!).
And to stick my head where it doesn't belong and sidetrack this argument a bit, the PC solution offers an incredible amount of convenience, which, being new to PC audio, took me and my significant other by surprise. To have you're whole collection at your finger tips, instantly accessible has made a big difference for us.
And, the other thing I'll write is that once all your music is placed on HD, you've instantly circumnavigated over two decades of technology so to speak. The CD will be replaced with, probably, downloadable music, or small memory chips bought in stores or both...I don't know. But, it will come. The word is just not out yet to the masses. Once that happens, given the convenience factor, the CD will fall by the wayside. Wavelength Audio has been swamped since the recent NY Times article on DAC's.
Which sounds better...it seems to me if you are capable of spending an equal amount of money on either format, you're going to get comparable sound quality (IMHO). There will be exceptions on both sides of course.
OK, off my soap box.. |
Isn't it illegal to rip CDs and then sell them? |
Sammie: before you dump those CDs, make sure your ripped copies are backed up and that you won't face digital rights management issues in the future. E.g., you may need to the original source disk for some reason. |
I still believe that in most, not highest-end budget situations, the PC-Audio will sound better than comparable CD Players. I am just not willing to extend that logic to "PC will beat any high-end CDP any time" simply because I have not heard enough comparisons to make the judgment. However, it seems safe to say that the industry as a whole is moving to the on-line download path, albeit at a much slower pace than some here claim. |
Pschoi, why a $3K or $5K CDP does not sound as good as a comparable PC-Audio/DAC speaks for the CDP, not the PC-Audio/DAC. I agree with you, but it seems like you are the only one around here to acknowledge that PC-Audio is not "the best". Others say it is GAME OVER and THE BEST. So this is what I disagree with. But that doesn't mean Deutsche Gramophone or Decca will come back issuing the new Berlin Phil or Metropolitan Opera recordings on LPs. I don't know about LPs but they have many of those on SACDs, it is "good enough" for me. :-) With close to 5000 SACDs currently available (and growing), I am very happy! Regards, Alex |
Does anyone know a good way to "dump" CD's for some cash? I'm sure ready to do it. It seems Ebay would be a pain in the ass. Is there a CD swapping/trading site or something? |
Jc5, you comment about it "killing it" sounds silly, or absurd. |
Wow, I was considering some Alps gear until I read this thread. ):
Computer and/or network based transports are the future. |
Thank you for pointing out that NWO is a CDP. Someday, I would love to hear one.
But again, you're using a $30K LP setup as a comparison. I never made any claims that a $30K LP (or dedicated CDP for that matter) will surpass the PC + DAC combo. My point is that if you spent the same, let's say, $5,000 on a PC + DAC vs. CDP, which would come out on top? What about $3,000 PC + DAC vs. CDP.
Anyway, when you think about it the CD will be dead if (a big if) the major studios determine that they are no longer making money off them, and if the on-line download market becomes big enough to make pressing CD's no longer worthwhile. And companies like Sony, Samsung, etc. stop making mass-market CDP's (or DVD players). So you can see that huge assumptions have to be made to declare that CD will be dead soon, and it will not matter a tiny bit to the studios whether there is an excellent PC+DAC setup...OR...whether there is a small manufacturer out there that makes fantastic CDPs for a small number of people. Unfortunately, what the audiophile market says will be irrelevant to the demise (or continued existence) of the CD medium.
Like Alex said, there currently is a 30K vinyl rig that will blow all CDs and SACD players away, in full production, and anyone with enough money can buy it. But that doesn't mean Deutsche Gramophone or Decca will come back issuing the new Berlin Phil or Metropolitan Opera recordings on LPs. |
Pschoi, the NWO is not a transport; it is a stand alone universal digital player. No need for DAC or preamp. So, again, I agree that APL NWO, or other cost-no-object CDPs may still be better than the PC-audio setups, That's it! Thank you! but how much difference are we really talking about here? Here is an experiment for you when time permits; Get a $30K+ vinyl rig with the new AirTight PC-1 cartridge, buy the Bassface Swing Trio "Plays Gershwin" on vinyl that was recorded direct-to-disc. This LP comes as a bundle with an SACD inside that was recorded direct-to-DSD. So setup the vinyl rig and ANY PC-Audio/DAC combination of your choice, then A-B the two. Let me know if the PC-Audio/DAC surpasses the vinyl rig. Oh sorry, I forgot, you can't even play SACD on the PC-Audio/DAC combo. :-) Regards, Alex |
I think we should also take price into consideration. Now I have not had the pleasure to own or listen to Alex's NWO CD transports, and have no doubut that they are excellent.
However, many people are hearing no comparable differences between, say a Meridian 808 ($13000) vs. Wavelength Cosecant ($3500) + existing iMac (new ones can be had for around $1500). Even with external hard drives, we're talking less than $6,000 for a system that is indistinguishable (or better) than a $13,000 cdp.
Another thing to consider is that many many people simply are not able to spend over 10 grand for a CD player, but pretty much all of them have PCs or Macs - and have the option of spending a couple grand on a very good DAC + external HDD to get a performance unthinkable by spending similar amount of money on a single box CDP.
And all of this is *before* considering the enormous advantage of ease of having thousands of songs at your fingertips.
So, again, I agree that APL NWO, or other cost-no-object CDPs may still be better than the PC-audio setups, but how much difference are we really talking about here? It's not like teenagers listening to mp3's just because they are super convenient at the huge expense of audio quality. People listening to uncompressed wav or lossless files are not merely sacrificing fidelity for convenience.
Also, only audiophiles say vinyl is not dead. Look around and see how many new music (including classical and jazz) are being issued in LP format. Vinyl is not dead only in the sense that there are niche producers re-issuing classics and producing excellent LP players. |
I did A/B, many times. For example my Cosecant against an $8k Meridian G08 at a dealer. A room full of people were shocked that the Cosecant killed it, including the owner. The 808 (which is an upsampling player)was another story. You could hear a little deeper in with the 808, but didn't have the pretty sound the Cosecant has. I would have loved to see Crimson against the 808. But either way, these are $8k and $12k respectively. Worth the money after what heard? No freakin way! Even the single box dSC 8pi player at $15K outperforms the Meridian 808 Signature. Of course, the EMM Labs Signature betters the dCS. This is reported somewhere here on Audiogon - "Blind Shootout in San Diego". So that's why I asked you what your reference is. Now I know! I have very nice equipment from VTL and my DAC. Wavelength is tops, and there is no sonic compromise (from an audiophile standard) with ANY of Gordon's DACs. Give one a listen first, then come talk to me. Oh, I am sure! Regards, Alex |
Jc51373 - When the comparisons were made, were levels matched? |
Aplhifi-
I did A/B, many times. For example my Cosecant against an $8k Meridian G08 at a dealer. A room full of people were shocked that the Cosecant killed it, including the owner. The 808 (which is an upsampling player)was another story. You could hear a little deeper in with the 808, but didn't have the pretty sound the Cosecant has. I would have loved to see Crimson against the 808. But either way, these are $8k and $12k respectively. Worth the money after what heard? No freakin way!
NONE of my buying decisions were based on Convenience first, trust me. That is just the gravy of computer-based system like mine. I listened extensively before throwing down one penney for Cosencant. Don Better let me have it and Brick (another amazing DAC for the $$) for two full weeks, and you can bet I did my comparisons before making a final decision, each time I was shocked.
I think it would be silly for anyone to pay $3500 for a DAC if all they were shooting for was convenience. I have very nice equipment from VTL and my DAC. Wavelength is tops, and there is no sonic compromise (from an audiophile standard) with ANY of Gordon's DACs. Give one a listen first, then come talk to me. |
So exactly what are you planning is the great benefit of this new set up of yours? Compared to listening to good old CD's? |
Pop Pop fizz fizz oh what a relief it is....... |
Until you've listened to one, you can't say a word about it. I have owned MANY high end CD players, and can say with confidence there is NO sonic reason to miss the CD sound I am actually DYING to A-B one! And BTW, what MANY high end CD players mean? Can you please list them? , or deal with the inconvenience anymore That is more like it! Many thought they wouldn't deal with the inconvenience anymore and sold all of their vinyl for CDs. Now they regret it. What can I say; this entire PC-based audio rave is, once again, not based on audio quality but on convenience. It is unbelievable! Do you really think that maximum can be obtained from a Noiseball Audio? Not in my book! But it seem that the importance on audio quality is very low here! Regards, Alex |
Comparing CD to Vinyl is not an accurate analogy by any means. All of you are forgetting tape. 8 Track, DAT etc...Where is it now?
The only thing missing now is a credible place for people to download DRM free Losslessly encoded files online somewhere. Then we can really have this debate. I am sure the record companies will hold on to that power for dear life as long as they can. But eventually, it will change, and CDs will be about as popular as tape is today.
I am not saying it will all be hard drive based..Where it is stored is anyones guess. Could be HDD, could be SSD, could eventually be holographic storage. But one thing is for sure, it will most likely move towards a computer/server based set up for most. The reason being, is there is NO difference in sound quality when the files are lossless and the DAC is designed well. Like all of Gordon's DACs.
Until you've listened to one, you can't say a word about it. I have owned MANY high end CD players, and can say with confidence there is NO sonic reason to miss the CD sound, or deal with the inconvenience anymore. |
Game over? not hardly -- but, the game has definitely broadened and will continue to do so.
If anything, vinyl popularity has increased -- perhaps due more to us dinosaurs or those with collector mentalities, but when done right, analog rules! Perhaps it's just a niche market but a very sizeable one.
CDs aren't going to just disappear either. Hell, they've had a bigger footprint than the 33 1/3 LPs ever had. No, they'll continue as well but certainly and ultimately relegated to a niche market as well.
The real question is what will be the primary means for distributing music in 5 years? 10 years? |
So I guess vinyl is dead too? I think not. Seems like people prefer convenience over the end result. I could see the pc stuff for non serious listing(sort of like a tuner), but not for a serious sitdown. Not everyone is computer savvy or is into carrying $3000+ laptops around or have a PC within reasonable distance of their system. CD's will be here for awhile. |
JC -
You mean the way CDs killed vinyl?
(sorry couldn't resist) |
No other medium other than CD has ever issued as many tiles.
CD has not killed LP, and DVD-A and SACD has not displaced the CD. I do not think CD will disappear in a long time. Maybe junk music will be downloaded by younger people, but for classical, jazz and good old rock LP and CD still is the best medium.
Cd is convenient, can be copied with ease and represents a physical medium, which is somnething many still like.
I like to own the medium physically as many music lovers do and downloads just do not do it for me.
I have a music server which is loaded up with my whole CD collection and the sound is very good, but I still keep using my CD transport. Why?
Because I choose the CD to play by visually selecting the music. The artwork, or whow, havent heard this one in a long time or look, lets listen to this one again is my modus of selecting a CD to play.
That is how I choose the music I play, and much depends on my mood. I rarely know the title or many performers in my CD collection, but when I see the CD cover I know what music is in there. Sometimes I do not even know that, and then the music is a new discovery.
That is the way I see it. |
GAME OVER indeed!
I can't wait for those "dead CDs" to hit the market. I got some really nice "dead vinyl" collections that way too.
:-)
Regards,
Alex |
Everything is replaced by newer technology at some point and that includes lossless files piped in via USB or firewire, but I think that cds will be around for a while yet. I'm still waiting for everyone to start dumping their cd collections. Hasn't happened yet. Home theater hasn't killed 2 channel stereo yet as was predicted a few years ago either. |
trust me, it's over. The CD was a transitional medium at best. Maybe it won't settle at USB or HDD for storage, but one thing is for absolute certain. CD's are dead, dead, dead!
I stand behind what I say 100% and will be the first to apologize if I am wrong at a later date. As someone who works in the IT industry in the research sector, and sees the writing behind the wall, take it from me consider it over. The shipments of the two types of storage media alone are a tell-tale sign. HDD being the winner.
Dust hasn't completely settled on where it will end up, but right now, lossless files piped in via USB or firewire are a good bet.
CDs are for ripping at this point, not putting in an inconvenient and archaic player with all sorts of transport induced jitter to-boot. I will take a Cosecant, or Crimson over ANY modern day CDP anyday. |
Heard the same predictions being made when SACD arrived. Yet CD still lives! I am a EA user. Some hifi friends of mine (when over) prefer EA playback, some do not. I agree with Psacanli: it aint over till its over. |
i've recently hooked up a Mac g5 tower, powered by a PS Audio power plant, via digital output to my AA Capitole mk11. it sounded great, so started to tweak, now have roller balls and a bdr shelf for source under the g5, and have passed the point of no return. I connect to the g5 thru my laptop with Apple Remote Access and limit the current draw to minimum inside the g5, no video out, no external drives. The sound passed my transport a while ago, and is just getting better and better. i never understood what a background of blackness really sounded like before this, and the extra detail is clearly evident. Instruments stand out from the mix and are better defined, less overhang, much sharper and easier to focus on. when you hear details you were never aware of before the music changes, becomes even more involving, its hard to do anything but close your eyes and immerse yourself in it. rythm and pace are also much improved upon.
i own an Apple computer shop and we will start an audio section soon enough; now my hobby will be part of my work, can't wait! |
EA user here. I use the Turbo-2 (AES/EBU out) with the EmmLabs DCC2 SE. With the right PC setup and EA's battery power supply, PCM is essentially indistinguishable from my CDSD SE. All of my CDs are tucked away in boxes in storage. I use the CDSD only for SACDs, which usually sound better IMO.
The beauty of the EA stuff is you get to use your existing DAC. Looking forward to the Pacecar v3. No experience with I2S or wireless. |
I am surprised that on this thread there are no empirical audio users. His pacecar reclocker for the squeezebox looks very interesting... hooks up via an I2s connection to a modified Benchmark or a Northstar dac.
Any empirical audio users here? I would rather go wireless than USB, personally... |
As a famous wag once said "news of my death was entirely premature". It's never over. |
I'm with Tomcy6 just waiting for all those cheap CDs to become available. |
Has anyone noticed sonic differences between apple lossless and wav files? To me wav sounds louder and a bit more dynamic on itunes. I've only made comparisons on a pc and would like to know if mac users have experienced this? |
The Crimson is a USB DAC attached to the computer via a USB cable. The CDs are ripped to the hard drive of the computer. |
How do you get all the music onto your Crimson? |
Thanks Steve, I didn't consider upgrading to silver later. |
The copper units have the magic as well. The Silver units deliver more detail and sonic purity. The best USB DAC that Gordon makes, to my knowledge, is the Crimson. The Silver Crimson is worth the money, but I found the standard version to be very special.
If money is a limiting factor, and it is for most of us, I would sugggest you try the Cosecant. The Crimson is a big step up in performance and should be purchased if you can swing it. Forget the Silver transformers for now. You can always upgrade the units.
Steve |
The time to upgrade my front end has come and gone and I'm reluctantly leaning towards a PC based system. Wavelength DACs seem to be all the buzz but folks are talking like there are three different DACs where as I count seven: Brick MSRP $1750, Cosecant MSRP $3500 Silver $10,000 USD, Ultimate DPU $11,000 Silver $17,500, Crimson $7500, Silver $15,000. The raves I hear seem to be about the silver units which are out of my price range(at least new). Must one pony up for the silver to get the MAGIC or does the copper come close? Thanks |
I traded a Wadia 861 for a Wavelength Brick Silver.
Prior to obtaining a MacBook to drive the Brick, I used a very old Dell Pentium II desktop with an external hard drive. With the exception of PC fan noise, the sonics were the same as the MacBook -- superb! So, as long as one is using an external DAC, and a "silent" PC (the MacBook is), the PC doesn't have to be state of the art!
Sonics are superb, convenience is spectacular -- even better than I had imagined! In my book this is an impossible combination to beat. Of course, one has to do a lot of ripping. But over the years my son and I had ripped hundreds of discs in order to record compilations. So the software was present, and backed-up, we have duplicates of each others tunes stored at different sites.
For my purposes, the game is over. |
David,
Thanks in advance for the help. I have not made the jump to PC music, yet. A couple of questions, if I may...
1. Do you copy music to your ipod for the car?
2. Do you distribute the music to other rooms in the house and do you need an RF remote?
3. Since the HD does all the work do you need a sophisticated computer or would the simplest computer with massive HD space work? Have you tried different computers? It seems that the better the DAC, the better the sound. Is that right?
Thanks again. I like my CDP. My next upgrade will be to a fine DAC in preparation for a conversion to PC. |
