Hey David, seems like you had a leg up on us!
Just read the fabulous news about Reference Recordings realeasing "master quality sound" via computer discs. It looks like we are into a new era of exciting sound like none of us have experienced before. I just hope the "reproducing players/computers can translate the dynamic toe tapping heart warming sound that's on the discs-and that we don't have to go thru nearly 20 years of "bs" upgrades. If it doesn't 'blow my socks off' I'm going to be spending a lot more time with my Goldmund Studio.(Personally I'd be 'de-lighted' to go back to the sound I got fromm my reel to reel playing those good old pre recorded tapes. Now those filled my room(whole house)with music! Anyone else fondly remember those "big boys"? |
It's aplhifi,see:
http://www.aplhifi.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=688 |
Apologies for all the typos....and finally to add one more thing....I suspect what you will have as a result of all the above is the revival of external DACs with mulitple input options. Alphi....your challenge has been set. |
At least to me the what sounds better and the whole discussion re the wavelength dac is a bit misplaced. First things first, I have two systems (in different rooms of course) one which CD/SACD based (Meitner) another with a music server...the wonderful Sooloos.
1. The real point of music servers, PC Audio etc is what Alphi and some others alluded to...the convenience. But not as Dennis the menace indicated in popping in a CD vs going thru menu but the access to all of one's music in a very organized, easy to find manner. I have about 3000 CDs. Just relying on The Meintner system....there is tendancy for me to even forget what I have. Using the Sooloos, I am re-discovering a lot of music, and falling in love all over again, and in the end that;s what its all about.
2. Re wavelength Dac etc....well then its matter how do we improve music server/PC based audio aound quality? The obvious answer is an external DAC of which Wavelength is but only one option. For PC based yes u need a USB connection or a USB to XXX conveter like what is provided by Haggerman (if I recall correctly) but some music servers also have other output options. The Sooloos for example has RCA unbalanced which expands the options.
3. Sooloos which is indeed expensive, it has capacity in terabytes which I needed, and I just love the interface.
4. Death of CDs: Hardly. Even if hard disk data based audio is the way to go, the orginal content has to come from somewhere. Downloads are too far and between, especially in terms lossless quality. So I will continue to buy CDs, ripp them into Sooloos.
5. Re hard disk vs CD sound comparisons....I have both but the room, rest of system are very different, with CD/SACD system much more of higher quality (rest of system that is). Frequently I find discovering music via Soooloos the investigating further in the Meitner based system. But the real point I think is if you have great external DAC and invest in the rest of the system, whatever sound quality shortcomings it may or may not have vs a hard disk based system will be far far outweighed by the interface, functionality etc of the latter, especially if you have fairly large music library.
6. To me the shift from CD to digital storage based systems is far greater leap in functionality, mobility, user interface ...everything than the previous shift from LP to CD. After all the latter improvement in convenience was something more along the lines of physical storage size, maintenance etc.... |
To me, a transport (CDSD) sounded better than a hard drive using the same DAC (DCC2)... and oddly enough, I feel it's more convenient to just pop a CD in the transport vs. using a computer. Different strokes I guess. |
I'm using the Crimson with volume direct to amps. It sounds excellent. Gordon will tell you -at least he told me- that the built in volume control will sound better as it eliminates the linestage from the signal path. I didn't do any major comparing to confirm, but I am impressed with the sound. The volume control is implemented prior to the tube stage...for what it's worth. Gordon will have a Crimson with volume control @ CES if you can go. |
I tried this once before and it looks like the post feel victim to the mysterious Audiogon-moderator-random-post-delete.
I was musing about using a Crimson as a DAC/linestage combo. IOW, with the optional VC and no preamp.
My experience has led me to regard an active preamp as essential for the best sound - best body, especially (I've found you can get great dynamic without an active pre despite what some say).
However, this little beast, with its big power supply and transformer-coupled DHT output stage is basically a single-input tube pre along with the DAC - no?
So, is anybody doing that? Anybody that used to be sold on (active) preamps as necessary? |
Kana813 - I didn't say it was better, just different. The DAC-gives you more options and lower jitter. The DAC-1 USB gives you the better output op-amps. Some may like one better than the other.... I prefer both modded, not stock.
Steve N. |
Thanks to both of you. I have the non-USB version of the DAC1 at the moment and have ordered the cable you mention, Kana. AT the Benchmark Web site, I see Mac setup instructions for the USB implementation, but not for the toslink. Can you provide a pointer? |
Now there's a newsflash, Steve N. thinks #2 is better.
Drubin-
Spend $30. on a Monster Cable ICable and try your Mac's optical output into your DAC-1. Follow Benchmark's Mac set up instructions and enjoy. |
#3 is a non-starter, not even close IMO.
Steve N. |
Drubin asks:
which would be better:
(1) USB out of my Mac --> USB input on Benchmark DAC1 USB, or
(2) USB out of my Mac --> Empirical Audio device that converts USB to SPDIF --> coax digital input on DAC1?
They both use virtually the same USB interface and firmware. #2 would have lower jitter due to the Superclock4 in the Off-Ramp I2S. There is a slight advantage of the DAC-1 USB because of the upgraded op-amps on the outputs. More mods are recommended to improve the high-frequency smoothness and overall dynamics of either.
#2 also allows optimum use of the Pace-Car reclocker with a wide range of sources, including SB3, Sonos, Olive and AiRport Express. These combos are actually better than the USB interface, lower jitter.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer |
Revising previous post with a third option...
Dumb question, but, hypothetically, which would be better:
(1) USB out of my Mac --> USB input on Benchmark DAC1 USB, or
(2) USB out of my Mac --> Empirical Audio device that converts USB to SPDIF --> coax digital input on DAC1, or
(3) Toslink out of my Mac --> Toslink input on Benchmark DAC1 (or this can be done via Airport Express)?
#3 is the only option I can do currently.
Or am I missing something? |
Dumb question, but, hypothetically, which would be better:
(1) USB out of my Mac --> USB input on Benchmark DAC1 USB, or
(2) USB out of my Mac --> Empirical Audio device that converts USB to SPDIF --> coax digital input on DAC1?
Or am I missing something? |
"But" the heading of this thread starts "PC-audio". |
Digital to Analog conversion is perfectly appropriate for this forum as well. |
Bigamp you have a good point. Instead of knocking in this DIGITAL forum the posts in this thread are more appropriate for the PC forum. |
It seems the Macbook gets a lot of mention. I use an older business warhorse IBM laptop with Windows Media Player 11 and have never listened to anything beyong a Grammaphone or BBC Music mag sample. It could be interesting to try playing through the system-does it need a DAC? |
Hi Dave, I'm was not questioning your integrity, I was just asking a simple and I felt not unreasonable question considering the level of enthusiasm you've exhibited (and some of the well known shenanigans in the audio business). I fail to see the connection with your being a surgeon (which is a calling I have particularly high regard for having required 4 surgeries of by OS's) but perhaps you were simply indicating that you're not a lawyer(just joking for all our erstwhile, audiophile lawyers-I'm presently consulting a lawyer-and hoping his Dad was part pit-bull part tiger). I respectfully advise no insult intended. In fact I believe I've purchased some used gear from you in the past. Regarding that last comment "for now, am very happy.As always that can change:)." I hope you remain happy and an interesting poster to this forum. Your experience with state of the art products is valuable. Cheers. Pete |
My primary front end is a Galibier TT.
Because I found myself listening mostly to vinyl, I thought that selling my Wadia 861 was a wise decision especially since PC Audio was in its neophyte stage, leaving "standard" digital payback hardware with good trade-in value.
I purchased a Wavelength Brick Silver, and a MacBook for essentially the re-sale value of my Wadia.
I didn't suffer sonically. I turned a transport and DAC into a portable computer and DAC. The former I can use for functions other than audio. What's not to like?
The convenience is another plus, albeit, secondary. But having instant access to my complete audio collection has been a blast! Much more fun than I could have ever imagined.
I suggest auditioning a good USB DAC system comparing it to the stand alones, and see what you think. Digital only folks may prefer this setup. But for vinyl + digital folks like me, it's a hard combination to beat, especially if one is in need of a laptop -- talk about multitasking.
BTW, I second all the positive comments regarding Wavelength and Gordon. I've never met him, only had discussions via e-mail, but he's been very helpful and his digital and other electronics -- especially SET's -- are superb. |
Hi Psacanli,
"Dave, Honestly, you sound like a marketing rep"
That was kind of an annoying post. Sounds like you are questioning my integrity. I happen to be an orthopedic surgeon who likes audio. I do really like the Wavelength Audio approach, and for now, am very happy. As always, that can change :).
David |
You can count me in with the group that is very loyal to Wavelength Audio and Gordon Rankin.
The reason is quite simple: his components are fun to listen to. I really look forward to my next listening session with my iMac and Gordons Crimson Silver USB DAC.
Gordon is a genius in SET design. He has worked in the computer industry and is able to write his own software for his products.
After all of the arguments and reasons why this computer approach is just a fad, the fact is, Gordon's stuff just sounds like real music. And that, my friends, is what this hobby is all about for me. |
Psacanli-"Wavelength company" is one man, Gordon Rankin. He doesn't have marketing reps, or salesman, and quite honestly doesn't seem interested at all in being anything remotely close to "mainstream".
I too defend and promote Wavelength, consider me a Marketing Rep. But mostly I am a promoter because it is incredible stuff, and Gordon is a genius and a friend to all those who buy from him. |
Dave, Honestly, you sound like a marketing rep. Are you (have you been, or are you hoping or planning) in "any" way involved with the Wavelength company, Axiss Distribution or any affiliate of theirs, or are you close friends or a business affiliate with any of the people involved?, by any chance. |
Vinyl sounds great, but it is over. The new music is not being recorded on vinyl.
db |
Oh, I couldn't agree more. I've had some well-regarded CD players and DAC combos, Sony SCD-1, Accuphase DP-85, EMM Labs CDSD and DAC6e combo and an Esoteric X-01 Limited. To my ears, the Wavelength Crimson is superior in terms of tonality, imaging, etc. The only one that has it beat in any category was the Esoteric in terms of bass weight. I'm working on my system synergy, and soon even that will be surpassed. Throw in the convenience of computer -based playback, and I still submit, "game over."
David
David |
Speaking of tried and true audiophile grade DACs, if you have a DAC that you already like, IMO the Empirical Audio Turbo-2 or PaceCar (or both) interface is the way to go. Yes, they're pricey for something that just converts USB to another digital format, but the internal clock makes it pricey. And you don't have to spend money on a DAC.
Shameless promoting by a happy Turbo-2 owner. |
I think some of us are missing the point in terms of a Wavelength DAC, even some of the owners. The convenience FACTOR is nothing more than a sideshow when speaking about these DACs, and we should not lose sight of the fact that the sound quality is comparable if not better than some of the perceived "best" CDPs on the market today. Lets not lose sight of this and the fact that convenience should be considered a secondary benefit ( a darn good one) of a PC-based system after you consider the sound quality, which Wavelength DACs have in spades. I consider myself a true audiophile, and this is what we look for first and foremost. And for some, our dreams have been answered, because now we have the best of both worlds, audiophile sound from a PC-based rig.
And if you waiting for a Wavelength product to come down in price, don't hold your breath. The laws of supply and demand some may hope work in their favor do not typically apply to items that are this unique and that are hand made to order. For that, wait for a solid state based, mass produced DAC that is a compromise in sound. |
Hi Psacanli,
Cost and convenience are certainly factors. I recently parted out a very decent analog setup, and sold 1000 records, Bcause I NEVER LISTENED TO THEM. As good as it was, I work crazy hours and have 5 kids at home, so settling in for a couple of hours of listening for myself, and occasionally my wife is difficult. Now, all I do is wake up the Mac, pick an album, or a song, and it goes. And it sounds great. What more can I ask? The Wavelength DACs, I happen to own the Crimson, are great.
David |
Hi David,1st-I do recognize you've assembled & enjoyed some grat systems- you said you'd never go back to spinning discs--"The convenience factor is unbelievable". I'm surprised when you mention 'convenience' as a factor for truly hi end sound. (? those of use who still appreciate records-even old 60's records) Is "cost" going to be the next factor(or is it now the big factor)? I appreciate that "studio quality" sound will(may) -one day- be available over the net(see B&W web)but I believe to fully reproduce it will require a very significant improvement over the way our current mass market computers (or even Benchmark DAC 1-good as it is) are put together- i.e it will require more than a good dac chip.
Have you tried or heard the Spectral SDR 4000 cd player? Your thoughts? |
i agree with tpk. i will convert once the cost of implementing a pc based system comes down to a reasonable cost. a couple of hard drives, a quality external dac, and god knows what else will easily run well over 2k. i will let you guys pay those inflated prices to stay on the bleeding edge. eventually prices will comes down, especially on those aforementioned dac's that cost 1.75k. and up. for now i will just enjoy cd's on my lowly $500 cd player. convenience can wait.
regards,
Paul |
One other thing I forgot to add...Who said anything about "Fraction of the cost"??? Particularly in this hobby, there is little rationale to the $$ we spend on this equipment. And I tend to agree that you don't always have to spend gobs of cash to get the best sound. And Wavelength should be one of the better examples of this fact.
Just remember, these are DACS that many agree outperform $15K Reimyo and Meridian CDPs (no exaggeration). There is some perspective for you, which in those terms makes Gordon's DACs a relative bargain. |
Tpk123-Not to sound overly cliche here, and being a Cosecant owner, take it for what it's worth; but you get what you pay for in this case.
A Wavelength DAC is a tried and true audiophile grade DAC, that is custom designed with a tubed output stage. This is not your run-of-the-mill commodity-based DAC chip product. The USB controller was custom designed by Gordon himself, this takes loads of engineering R&D hours to produce. Also the power supply is custom designed by Gordon with hand-wound transformers (a lost art).
Most importantly, he is a (classically trained) musician all his life, which means all his products are voiced properly, to how a performance should sound.
I know some of his pieces could be a stretch financially, I know I certainly did at the time, but they are worth every penny of their asking price. This coming from a guy with a newborn child, and not alot of disposable income. My Cosecant DAC will have to pried out of my cold dead hands, it sounds that good as a source with all my other equipment. Unless of course I get a nice enough tax return to get a Crimson, with directly heated triodes! |
I know people are going to jump all over me but for god's sake, why are the Wavelength DACs so expensive? I understand supply and demand and even if they do sound so good, that's great. But I thought the point of this was to acheieve superior sound with convenience for a fraction of the cost. Well there are DACs up to $15k there.....not sure what that is a fraction of? Maybe hiring the band to come to your home and perform live? |
" Do you think 16/44.1 recordings sound better than 24/96 recordings?"
this question can NOT be answered with one sweeping statement like you may want it to. But to answer your question in my opinion, it depends on the DAC and the implementation. I personally have listened to 24/96s that don't sound better than 16/24s, on my DAC in particular.
Believe it or not, 24/96 does not mean better sound, it is not that simple. And quite honestly, after listening to enough harsh and hollow sounding 24/96s I just assume not bother with them when I have a much better sounding option. |
Jc51373-
Once again you think I'm referring to upsampling.
Do you think 16/44.1 recordings sound better than 24/96 recordings?
Heres' some tracks you can try: http://www.soundkeeperrecordings.com/format.htm |
I agree. Tube DAC's can be really wonderful, and 16-bit data is just fine. 24-bit can be a bit better, but I'm happy to listen to 16-bit all day long.
Using the DAC's in these inexpensive converters is like playing your Wilson speakers from a Bose lifestyle. Waste of time. The DAC's in these things are all compromises. These devices are only good for the digital outs IMO, and even they need a lot of work to reduce jitter. The Transporter analog output is a bit better, but I personally dont care for the D/A chip in it. Too sterile and electronic sounding for me. If is is the only decent DAC that you have heard, then you may think it's wonderful. There are many steps on the pathway to good sound quality.
Steve N. |
"With all due respects,I can't understand why anyone would spend big bucks on a USB Tube DAC that can only do 16/48."
Single-handedly one of the dumbest most uninformed statements on this thread yet. I will tell you why people would pay this much, because A) it IS tubed and not SS B) because alot of upsampling implementations don't necessarily sound better and C) because a $3500 DAC built by Gordon, will most definatley sound better than ANY modded Squeezebox.
That is why people pay that much for them, plain and simple. |
Kana813 - the SMPS that drives the SB3 definitely has an effect on its output jitter. This is independent of the PC power supply though. I suppose if you wired the SB3 to your network rather than using WiFi, this might add ground-loops that would introduce more noise?
I'm saying that PC-audio CAN be affected by PC power supply and ground noise, but it's not necessarily the case. Depends entirely on the USB converter design if it's USB. If it's networked, then the answer is no, it is not affected by the PC in any way.
I use the SB3 and Sonos wirelessly and feed them through a Pace-Car reclocker. This totally isolates everything: the clocks, the ground and the data signals. In this case the jitter is not a function of the PC, the SB3 or the Sonos, only the clock in the Pace-Car.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacturer |
Audioengr-
Ethernet cables don't conduct noise and the SMPS units which power the SB3
and Transporter don't have any effect on the performance of their digital or analog outputs?
Are you're saying Alex is totally wrong about PC-Audio being effected by SMPS noise? |
Alex,
Sorry to see you go. But it is interesting that you think memory chips may be in the future after all. I am sure that a big part of your design strengths will equally translate well into PC-based systems. I don't need to remind you that as a manufacturer, your opinions will always be viewed with a certain level of skepticism (I would apply the same to, hypothetically speaking, another manufacturer selling primarily PC-based DACs). Facts of life such as being what they are. |
"1. Will the PC/Mac download + DAC system kill the CD?"
There is little doubt in my mind that this not only will be the case, but already is the case, given the right player software and .wav files.
2. Does the high-end PC/MAC setup kill the high-end CD player?
Ditto.
2.1. Does it kill (or comparable to) the APL NWO?
Cannot speak to this. The only time a shootout was planned with my gear, Alex didn't show. Maybe another time.....
Steve N. |
Splaskin - Alex has a point here. The jitter on the USB interface is very much a function of the computer power, grounding and shielding. Fortunately, there are a couple of excellent chips from TI that reject this jitter quite effectively using digital PLL's, namely the TAS1020 and TUSB3200. If low-jitter clocks are used with these, the results can be quite stellar, beating 99% of transports on the market.
If another chip is selected for the USB interface, the results can be not as good. Some devices use other chips, but then reclock using ASRC (asynchronous Sample Rate Conversion). This can work extremely well too, providing the best resampler chips are used.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Manufacurer |
Kana813 - the SB3 and Transporter are not affected in any way by the PC or MAC that is driving them. Strictly a data transport mechanism using packets with ethernet protocol.
Steve N. |
Now, Alex of APL is making both general remarks about the noisy PC power supply, etc. and specific remarks that NWO is leagues better than anything PC audio has to offer. Pschoi, Indeed, no one can stop audiophiles from comparing. I've always welcomed A-B tests and so called "shootouts" so audiophiles can judge for themselves. Last weekend we had another shootout in San Diego between the NWO-3.0GO and a very nice vinyl setup featuring the new AirTight PC-1 reference MC cartridge. It was a very nice and informative experience, as always. My intention posting here was not bragging about the NWO superiority but to remind many who are interested in PC-Audio that, as good as it is, it is not flawless. So the best and game over dont really fit, IMO. I personally don't see the future of High-End audio on HDD. It could be Memory chips, but certainly not HDD. Wi-Fi for High-End audio is out of the question too. This is only my opinion of course. There is no point arguing here, plus, there are many things I simply can not further elaborate. I give up, so this my last post here. Happy listening! Regards, Alex |
I believe the arguments are two-tracked:
1. Will the PC/Mac download + DAC system kill the CD?
2. Does the high-end PC/MAC setup kill the high-end CD player?
2.1. Does it kill (or comparable to) the APL NWO?
Now, Alex of APL is making both general remarks about the noisy PC power supply, etc. and specific remarks that NWO is leagues better than anything PC audio has to offer.
I think the general remarks are, as always, theoretical at best. Didn't we think that bits are bits so theoretically all CD players, or transports sound the same in the past? :)
If we get down to specifics, this is where it gets fun. What's to stop people with NWO's (or any other high-end CDPs) from comparing that against the best PC Audio setup? I for one, look forward to listening to what others have to say AFTER doing some comparative (or competitive ;)) listening between the two. |
The SD Transporter and SB3 are effected by the PC noise. The ethernet port is connected to the PC's noisy switching power supply.
Both the Transporter and SB3 also use SMPS units to power internal circuits. |
Alex,
I am trying to understand what you have written about the noisy switching power supply of a computer. I can't see how the digital information would be modified by a switching power supply.
Once it leaves the computer via an optical USB cable, the DAC would have its own linear power supply to process the information.
By the way, I also suspect that you build and design great CD/SACD players.
Thank You |
Alex,
Have you experimented with the Slim Devices Transporter. This device seems to take out all of the factors of which you complain about PC audio. Linn has even jumped on board with their $20,000 Klimax DS. Both are network servers. So, if you stream wave files over the ethernet cable, no processing. The Transporter with a great DAC should equal or best most stuff on the market. Maybe not your players, who knows, but have you tried a network streaming device. You are right about PC audio. This is probably a dead end, as well as USB DACs, but network streaming seems to combine the best of both worlds. If you added an ethernet port to the NWO, that would be exciting for me.
I have a rubidium clock hooked up to my transporter right now and it sounds pretty good, but the dac is certainly inferior. I would love to hook up my transporter and clock to an Alps DAC. Is it out yet?
Thanks,
andy |
The drives, memory, processors and interfaces in the PC-Audio are powered with the noisy switching power. You can isolate this from the DAC but that does not help anything when it comes to the actual data processing.
Isolating the DAC from the PC brings an obvious improvement. Why? Try supplying your DAC from the switching power supply in the computer and see what happens with the sound.
It is very interesting to me that no one acknowledges the fact that PC-Audio remains powered by the noisy switching supply. But it does not end here. How about the fact that your audio data is being transformed to many different protocols inside the computer so it can be processed and stored? Do you really believe this can be a better solution compared to a quiet linear powered and precision clocked dedicated audio DSP directly hooked up to the DAC with 5 inches long cables? Not in my book!
Again, convenience and nice sound is a suitable description for PC-Audio. But when it comes to the best possible audio quality, I will have to disagree.
Finally, I have 5 desktops and 2 laptops here. :-)
Regards,
Alex |
