Oregonpapa,
If you have tons of mono records, you might want to consider a mono cart. A stereo cart, no matter how good, can't compete with a true mono cart. Your ART9 or OC9 might have better resolution than a particular mono cart, but it also has differences between channels that at best, get blended rather than eliminated.
That difference includes phase, crosstalk, noise, antiskate, etc, are virtually eliminated with a mono cart. The absence of output for vertical movement does away with a lot of noise on mono records. It also eliminates the affects of pinch effect - vertical tip displacement in-groove.
Besides the usual mono carts, I've read that any Soundsmith cart can be ordered in mono. I bought the inexpensive MONO3 to check this out for myself. It doesn't have the resolution of my better stereo carts, but it does have superior presentation on mono.
Regards, |
Fleib - With all due respect I would beg to differ with you on one point. I don't have much experience with mono carts, but I don't think that skating forces are eliminated (or even virtually so) with a mono cartridge. Skating forces are inherent due to the physics of a pivoted tonearm tracking the groove, and I don't believe that they would be impacted by the signal being mono instead of stereo. Please correct me if I'm wrong by providing some supporting documentation. Thanks in advance for your time. |
How do you guys dealing with mono tip radious for different pressing if your cartridge is MC?
- 1mil. tip for mono records with a 1mil groove pressed pre-1967 (or
thereabouts, the date is not exact)
- and 0.7mil tip for post-1967 mono pressings with the smaller 0.7mil groove, including modern pressings.
Here you can read about it in recent review on Miyajima mono:
http://www.miyajima-lab.com/MiyajimaZeroHFWJul15.pdf |
Bill K,
Skating force is not eliminated with mono carts. Quite simply, because there is only one channel output which is duplicated, it does not contribute to a difference between channels like in stereo.
Regards, |
Chakster,
That would depend on your records. I think most of us have re-issues, but pre '67 pressings is misleading. The microgroove was introduced in '48 and adopted willy-nilly mostly through the '50s. However, if you have older wide groove mono, you're right. A .7mil (18um) tip could bottom out. Here's an explanation:
http://ortofon.com/hifi/products/mono-series
There are a couple of SPU and Miyajima models with appropriate tips. If you're looking for something inexpensive to play an older record, an OM-D25M might fill the bill:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/OROMD25M.html
I don't know much about it - just saw it listed. If it can take regular OM tips, it might be a good, versatile cart. The caveat is VTF/compliance. With the big spherical it's made for heavy tracking. Reg OM tips are much higher cu.
Regards, |
Fleib - Thanks, that makes perfect sense. |
Fleib ...
I only have one tonearm and it doesn't have a headshell. So, swapping cartridges is out of the question for me. My turntable (Well Tempered original model) is difficult to set up properly, so that's another problem. So, if anyone is in the same boat as me, and the OC-9 MK III is affordable, that would be a good way to go. Also, my phono stage (ARC PH-8) has a mono switch, so going between stereo and mono is a breeze. I always use the mono position when listening to mono records. Somehow, the OC-9 and ART-9 seem to get down into the grooves of the mono records to extract the information. Could it be that some of the problems you alluded to are resolved by the higher end AT cartridges? |
Oregonpapa,
Based on what you say about the sound, I wouldn't worry about it.
I don't know about your record collection. You said you have tons of mono. I have quite a few old jazz mono LPs (< ton), and every one is a microgroove. Most are re-issues, but even one or two oldies are microgroove. For these records your carts will do a better job of extracting detail/nuance than an inexpensive mono cart. This is especially true if your records are in good shape.
Some of my re-issues are Japanese pressings and most are in great shape. Although the presentation with the MONO3 is nicer, I miss the resolution. It's sort of like using a stock 103 instead of your AT. It might sound nice, musical, etc, but .....
The noise reduction on some old monos is substantial and if you have original wide groove pressings you might need a 1 mil stylus anyway. I found an old copy of Mozart Requiem Mass in the basement. This was so noisy I couldn't listen to it. I'll check it out and let you know. It might be wide groove and I'm not expecting much.
You said your mono records sound good and you have a mono switch. That goes a long way. It would cost a ton of money to set up mono approaching the same resolution as your ART9/OC9, for a somewhat nicer presentation? Enjoy what you have.
Regards, |
I replayed that old Mozart record and the noise reduction w/mono cart was amazing. I could hardly believe it. It still sounds grainy, but the clicks and pops are virtually gone.
Maybe it needs a 1 mil stylus, I don't know, but what they say about noise reduction on scratchy old records is true. |
Here is an interesting update:
I bought my ART9 for USD 1k about a year back. I live in Singapore so I bought it directly from the local dealer. Here Japanese products are relatively cheaper than in US. Just yesterday a friend of mine inquired for the ART9 from the same dealer, he was quoted USD 1.5k. Supposedly Audio Technica has revised the prices of their reference carts. Now I am sure the ART9 will sell more than ever since its no more a "budget prices" cart :-). And even AT has realized it sooner than later!! |
|
As my ART-9 continues to break in, it continues to amaze. Mr. Golden Ears came over for a listening session this past Saturday and was blown away. We've all heard the old saying that "its like a new record collection," right? In this case it's true. |
Bill_k, if it continues to stay that cheap in the US, its a good news for all we AT fans. Though I doubt that will happen. |
Oregonpapa, what phonostage are you using and what is the loading you have set for the ART9 ? |
Pani ...
I have an Audio Research PH-8 set at 100ohms. It seems to be the best setting for my preamp and system. There's about 75 hours on the cartridge now ... and just like you said, it is still improving. We were comparing notes last night on other cartridges I've used over the years. The closest one to the ART-9 was the Lyra Clavis. While the Clavis was a wonderful cartridge, it had a tendency to be analytical and focused on inner detail. It had a wide and deep soundstage as well. I always felt that the strongest attribute of the Clavis was the way it reproduced the piano. Well, at this point, the ART-9 is beating the Clavis by a long shot. Its nothing about inner detail, soundstage, or a "wow" factor ... its just that the darned thing gets with the music and never says: "hey look at me, I'm a high end cartridge." It just puts Sarah Vaughn in the room with you. The highs are so accurate its amazing. Brushed cymbals and high-hats are dead on. Vibes are amazing. I'm hearing Cal Tjader like never before. I could go on, but one more time ... thank you for pushing me over the edge to buy this cartridge. I was saving up for another brand that would have set me back over $3000. I don't think I'm missing anything at all at this point. |
Here is an interesting update:
I bought my ART9 for USD 1k about a year back. I live in Singapore so I bought it directly from the local dealer. Here Japanese products are relatively cheaper than in US. Just yesterday a friend of mine inquired for the ART9 from the same dealer, he was quoted USD 1.5k. Supposedly Audio Technica has revised the prices of their reference carts. Now I am sure the ART9 will sell more than ever since its no more a "budget prices" cart :-). And even AT has realized it sooner than later!! |
Is anyone using an Art-9 on a Jelco 750L. I am worried that it is too high compliance for my arm. |
Aigenga ...
Wish I could help you, but I don't have a clue. Why not send an Email to LP Tunes? Here, this will take you right to the spot: http://www.lptunes.com/articles.asp?ID=83 |
According to this web page, the Jelco SA-750L has an effective mass of 11g not including cartridge. The Art-9 weighs 8.5g and has a dynamic compliance of 18. That compliance with an effective mass of 19.5g creates a resonant frequency of about 8.5 Hz. This is on the low side of the safe range. The Jelco is fluid-damped, which reduces the amplitude of the resonance which makes things even better. You could also use a lighter headshell to take a few grams off the effective mass. I have a headshell like the Jelco and it's about 14g. That's on the heavy side. The matchup as it is should be fine, but if you could get a 9-10g headshell it would be just about ideal at 9.85 Hz. |
Thank you Johnny. Now I have my birthday present in sight. |
I use the ART9 with SME M2-12 tonearm which is a 12" tonearm with effective mass of 14 grams (without cartridge). It is sounding superb! |
Gents: Using an OC9MLII but am very much considering an ART9. For those who have taken the plunge....any regrets? There are a lot of cartridges out there for $1K why should I be getting the ART9? |
The Jelco 750L has eff mass of 11g, yet the headshell weighs 12g? Neat trick!!
I happen to own an old, but sturdy bridge connecting Manhattan to Brooklyn and due to unforeseen circumstances I'm looking for investors.... |
Dodgealum, i use ART-2000 and won't even try the ART-9, better to try something else if you already familiar with Audio Technica sound, life is short. So many nice vintage MCs available for the price under $1000. |
Dodgealum, the ART9 is the only $1k cartridge that sounds like a $5k cart. |
"There are a lot of cartridges out there for 1K why should I be getting the ART9"
I shared my impressions of going from the OC9III. Check page 1.As mentioned, I also played with a couple of popular 1k carts.
Since "good sound" is subjective, I would say if you like the overall presentation of the OC9, the ART9 offers refinement in areas the OC9
comes up short. System dependent, I heard high frequency "busy" passages as sizzly. ART9 low end more realistic-taut,defined. Vocals on nice recordings take on a other level of "you are there"
Across the spectrum, simply more REAL than the etchy, shrill OC9. I REALLY liked the OC9 before taking the leap of faith.
If your phono stage is up to the task, also consider the ART 7. It can be found for a few bucks less, and I believe it may offer a smidge more refinement OVER the ART9. It's very low output and its motor completely different.
The ART 9 ROCKS! Not to be construed as a R&R cart only. ALL music sounds fabulous thru the ART9. |
Fleib, please expand on your effective mass comment. Do you have a way to compute effective mass that is more accurate? |
Well, it felt a little like an impulse buy (no professional reviews and no chance to audition) but I've gone ahead and ordered an ART 9. I'm grateful to those who have posted about their experience with this cartridge and am very curious as to how it will sound in my system. I'm a big fan of Audio Technica having used one of their MM designs many years ago and my experience with the OC9MLII has been fantastic. When the OC9 came out I was just getting into audio--wow, that was a while ago! Sam Tellig fell in love with the original design which has since become a classic among relatively affordable MC cartridges. Given what you all have written here it seems as though the ART 9 may become the heir to that legacy. I'll return to post some impressions if people are interested once I have put some hours on mine. |
Hi Aigenga,
They're not listing effective mass. It looks like it's the weight of the armtube w/o the headshell. I don't think it's possible for the eff mass to be less than headshell weight.
Normally, you can reduce the eff mass of an arm with a 12g shell by substituting a lighter shell. A high percentage of the difference in weight will subtract from the eff mass. So if you use a 7g shell you'll reduce eff mass by almost 5g.
One ray of hope - listed mass is lighter than the 9" version and it looks like this is due to the aluminum collet? Normally a longer armtube of the same design will be heavier. If this is the case, the collet is directly behind the shell and that is the second best location for reducing eff mass.
Another good thing is the fluid damping. This will reduce the amplitude peak of the resonance. Use sparingly though, it can also affect transient response and you'll probably have to experiment.
The easy(?) way to figure the mass is with a test record and cart(s) of known compliance. This might be easier if the damper is dry. With the low frequency tones you'll see the cart vibrate at resonant frequency. Take the info to VE tools in database. Just solve for eff mass. You need the cart and fastener weight.
When these arms first came out the Brit importer said the eff mass of the 750E was 20g. I don't know if this is right, but it seems more realistic. People reported using the OC9II successfully with it. I think the cart cu is the same. Maybe a weight difference? BTW, AT 10cu @100Hz = 18cu @ 10Hz.
With the fluid damper I suspect you'll be fine, but I have no experience with the arm.
Regards, |
Dodge - Please post your impressions of the ART-9. The more information available, the better it will be for those of us looking to step up. From my perspective, stepping up from an OC-9ML/II. |
Dodgealum, get ready for a pleasant surprise :-) |
Arrived and will mount this weekend. I'll let you all know what happens.....
What VTF are you guys using? |
|
Dodgealum
The ART-9 will sound better than your OC-9 right out of the box. With that said, you won't begin to hear what the cartridge is capable of for about 40-50 hours. At that point, you'll be full of Oh's and Ah's ... but that's nothing compared with what you'll hear at 100 hours when the cartridge is fully broken in. Have patients and once you reach full break in, do as I do ... have a box of adult Pampers handy and insist that your friends wear them before they can enter your listening room.
Happy listening ... |
Got it dialed in on Saturday but only had time to listen to a few LPs. So far....Wow. Looking forward to how this evolves! |
Told ya. And lest we forget ... we have member "Pani" to thank for the original suggestion and pushing us toward the ART-9.
And just as a side note ... if you have a belt driven turntable, go here: www.originlive.com and order one of their custom turntable belts. The improvement is uncanny. It really improves the speed accuracy. You can actually hear the darned thing break in as you play records. Its a wow tweek! |
Hey thanks again Oregonpapa. It feels great to see that something I learnt turned out to be helpful to fellow audiophiles too. In this hobby where everything is subjective, very few such components appear in the scene that has such universal appeal. Some thing must be very right about the design and implementation of this cartridge. |
Audio Technica is not a new kid on the block when it comes to producing good cartridges. There biggest problem is to convince the 'bean counters' that there is a market out there and money to be made if the right product is presented.
regards, |
Hi, I have been considering trying the ART-9, and was hoping maybe someone here could help me out. I own a Rega Planer 25 table with the supplied RB600 arm, I don't know how to figure the effective mass, dynamic compliance and come up with the resonant frequency. If someone could let me know how well this arm and cartridge would work together it would be greatly appreciated, I might also add that I had a local shop add adjustable VTA to the tonearm. |
Got some time to listen this weekend and really heard the break in process unfold. Not sure if this has happened to anyone else before but this is the second time for me (the first was with my current speakers)--while listening (i.e. in the middle of an album) you could actually hear things open up, relax and become more spacious and dimensional. Very cool. For anyone who has ever had doubts about whether break in is a "thing" to experience this will really open your eyes. Still less that 25 hours on the ART 9 so I'll wait to comment further until I get more miles on the cartridge. |
I actually felt the complete break in took about 100 hours. Around that time I felt that the cartridge has disappeared completely without letting any discernible signature of its own left in the playback chain. No more did I feel I could describe the sound of this cartridge in terms like bass, treble, mids, soundstage etc..It all fell into place as one whole piece which doesnt have much improve upon. Super!! |
An update: I played around with resisitive and capacitive loading on my phono stage. The ART9 seems to sound a bit clogged at 100 ohms loading. It sounds much more open and unrestricted at 450 ohms but I also had to add 1nf capacitance to make it sound nice and graceful. In any case, I guess 100 ohms is a bit low for the ART9. |
Pani ... I'm running mine at 100 ohms. Sounds best at that setting though the ARC PH-8.
The cartridge is broken in now ... and is simply amazing for the money. It's the best I've had in the system ... and that includes more expensive cartridges. Also, I didn't think the OC-9 MKIII could be topped for reproducing mono recordings at anywhere near it's price, but the ART-9 kills the OC-9 on monos. |
I've been following this thread with intrigue. Who sells the ART7 and Art9 in the US? Sorry if it has been mentioned already ! Cheers -Don |
|
ART 7 is available through Amazon from Japanese sellers. You might have to look in musical instruments or do a general search.
Optimal MC load is preamp specific. The extra capacitance acts as a low pass filter for the RF type noise. |
Bill K, EBay list several Japanese vendors, which likely is the only place you're gonna find the ART 7.
Pani & Oregon Papa, I'm finding thru my tubed phono the ART9 isn't sensitive to loading and just leave it at 100, the recommended setting.
Same result when I had the OC9 III.
Perhaps it a system dependant thing, only MM seems to respond to playing with the loading knob on my Fosgate. Fabulous cart!
Nice to see this thread still going strong. I think the only reason I would swap out the 9, is to try the 7. And that isn't going to happen anytime soon since it would require an additional boost in gain(Xformer)I believe there may be subtlety and nuance to be gained going with the 7. Or perhaps I would just get the AT50ANV,just because. |
Tablejockey ...
Same experience with my PH-8. I've tested the settings with my friend Robert (Mr. Golden Ears), and he backs up my conclusions. There is a slight difference in changing settings, but at 100 ohms the highs just seem to be dead on. In fact ... beautiful.
Are you having the same experience as Pani and myself ... that the ART-9 just seems to disappear and never brings attention to itself? The darned thing just plays music ... and does it very well. |
OP, the 9 unquestionably delivers the goods. This thread is starting to become a cult!
I'm more of a multi genre listener and the 9 doesn't appear to be a specific
sounding cart, just sounds natural and plays either a great recording or terrible one.
Comparing what I've heard on unobtanium systems and mine, I hear perhaps 80-90% ?
Maybe what's holding the 9 from sounding even nicer may be my phono stage, but maybe not much. |
I'm nearing the 50 hour mark and can echo what has been posted by other folks--this is an exceptional cartridge and far superior to anything else I have tried in my VPI Scout. I am amazed at how even-handed, coherent and musically correct everything sounds. While the cartridge is certainly more revealing than the OC9MLII it replaced (more ambient information, inner detail, texture and vibrancy) it manages to present this more Technicolor soundscape without a hint of etch, grain or excessive sibilance. Over the weekend I cued up Linda Ronstadt's "Sentimental Reasons" with Nelson Riddle. I've heard this record dozens of times. When she lets go on "When You Wish Upon a Star"--specifically her phrasing of "Who you are......" it literally knocked me out of my chair. The dynamic expression, the ability to reveal the texture and subtle nuances of her voice as she projects it outward, was astonishing. It scared me, it thrilled me. Yesterday I listened to Beck's "Sea Change" on MFSL. The scale of the soundstage was mind blowing, as were the dramatic tonal colors that infuse this work--his best IMHO. I could go on but won't--I don't think this thing is even broken in yet, as it just keeps getting better every time I cue up my system. I've always been looking for a truly world class cartridge to run in my Scout which had the right performance/price ratio--for some reason I just could not get to the point where I was comfortable spending $2500 on a cartridge for an $1800 dollar turntable. The ART 9 solves this dilemma--it has perfect synergy with the JMW-9 (as did the OC9MLII before it--why more people don't choose the OC9 rather than the Dynas or Soundsmiths I don't know) and, at $1100, represents a "reasonable" amount of money to throw at a table like the Scout. This is what I love about the A'gon community--I would have never known about this treasure if Pani and the others hadn't brought it to my attention--many thanks! I'll try to do a full review once I get past 100 hours and am sure I have taken the full measure of this awesome cartridge. |
