Pani ... New ART-9 up and running ...

Well, what's the benefits of Art-9 over ART-2000 ?
I have art-2000 for years and love it.

Am i alone with ART-2000 cartridge relesed 15 years ago as limited edition reference model of Audio-Technica ? Or anyone can share the experience (compared to latest ATs) , maybe ?

How do you guys dealing with mono tip radious for different pressing if your cartridge is MC?

- 1mil. tip for mono records with a 1mil groove pressed pre-1967 (or
thereabouts, the date is not exact)

- and 0.7mil tip for post-1967 mono pressings with the smaller 0.7mil groove, including modern pressings.

Here you can read about it in recent review on Miyajima mono:
http://www.miyajima-lab.com/MiyajimaZeroHFWJul15.pdf

Dodgealum, i use ART-2000 and won't even try the ART-9, better to try something else if you already familiar with Audio Technica sound, life is short. So many nice vintage MCs available for the price under $1000.

@oregonpapa 

Chakster ... think I heard the ART-2000 in a high-end audio store back in time, but it seems as though it was longer than 15 years. ago. The dealer was bringing them in on the grey market. No warranties. I remember being totally impressed with the pitch black background. Quite a revelation for me. Now, the top of the AT line is the ART-1000 at the price of $5000.00.
Frank

Wow, $5000 for ART-1000 that's too much for me, but probably ok for MC lovers. I'm on my MM/MI/MF route and that's why i'm selling my ART-2000 MC just for $700 including shipping (perfect condition) if anyone would like to try this marvelous Limited Edition Reference Audio-Technica cartridge you're welcome (only 1000 units made 16 years ago for Japanese market). 

@oregonpapa 

^^^ Chakster ... What's the output of the ART-2000?
Thanks ...

hey, you can check all the specs and high quality pictures CLICK HERE

Type: MC, dual moving coil.

Playback frequency range: 10-50,000Hz.

Output voltage: 0.4mV (1kHz and 5cm/sec).

Channel separation: 30dB (1kHz).

Output balance: 1dB (1kHz).

Stylus pressure: 1.6 - 2.0g (1.8g standard) .

Coil impedance: 12 Omega (1kHz).

Direct current resistance: 12 Omega.

Load resistance: Head amplifier: 100 Omega or more.

Trance: 20 Omega or more.

Coil inductance: 50 mu H (1kHz).

Static compliance 35×10 - 6cm/dyne.

Dynamic compliance 9×10 - 6cu/dyne (100Hz).

Needle tip form: 0.1 Angular ML (micro linear) needle.

Vertical tracking angle: 23°

External size: H17.3×W16.8×D25.7mm Mass: 8.0g

I wonder how do you guys remember the sound of the first 20-50 hrs after 500 hrs of listening without direct A/B comparison test? After 500 hrs you can not come back to the sound you got in the beggining, so it is all just an illusion of our faulty memory (at least a part of it). Of cource burn-in make sense, but it can’t make your device totally different. I don’t believe in this sh***t.

Maybe it’s better to buy used cartridges or used electronics then. Most of my cartridges sounds good or bad in the first listening session after the alignment is finished correctly. Tonearm or phono stage, loading, cables makes much more different than just a burn-in time. If i don’t like the cartridge on different arms etc, i don’t believe it will be my favorite cartridge after 100 hrs of burn-in period. Do you believe in miracles? I remember couple of my ZYX cartridges i’ve bought new, the first one became slightly better after burn-in period (but no miracles here), the last one was great from the beggining. Later i discovered much better cartridges that i love from the first listening session and i was completely blown away how good they are by listening the first 10 records.

@pani

My friends have it on Jelco 9" and the big Thomas Schick tonearms.

Starange choice of the arms for this cartridge, even lower compliance ART2000 doesn’t sounds right on my Schick tonearm, but the ART9 has higher compliance (18 @ 100 Hz) than ART2000 (9 @ 100 Hz). Thomas Schick tonearm designed for cartridges with compliance below 22cu @ 10Hz maximum! Actually Shich works better with very low compliance cartridges. But the ART9 compliance converted from 100Hz to 10Hz would be as much as 30cu (which is high). 

@rantzmar

Chakster....Some guys who can hear simply write down what they hear and experience at the moment and revisit the notes later in the appropriate listening session. But the key...You have to be able to hear.

That makes sense if you are Michael Fremer and working on review, but analog or even digital recordings would be a better "documents" than just notes, so you can actually listen to those documented recordings to compare the quality of the raw new cartridge and fully burned-in cartridge. Personally i would never do that.

It is such a boring waste of time when you have to listen to some new cartridge that sounds awful when it’s new and doesn’t impressed you at all in the first 30 hrs. Especially if you have a better cartridge. I think this is exactly what happes, reported by @avanti1960 ?

Another question is why do you think the ART-9 is the cartridge for everyone? What’s the hype about it? And why it should be an MC cartridge? Audio-Technica made so many killer cartridges in the past, their MM cartridges from the 80s are spectacular (AT-ML170 OCC and AT-ML180 OCC) and goes nose-to-nose with Technics 100c mk4 for example. Those cartridges will cream most of the todays MC cartridges of any price.

@oregonpapa

New: Pinched sound stage, aggressive highs, bloated bass, recessed mid-range and non-involving emotionally.

Broken in: Sound stage wide open with amazing 3-D imaging, soaring highs, tunefully correct bass lines, super present mid-range and great music like Bach’s "Air on a G string" just makes you want to cry.

This applies to most electronics, cables, fuses, new turntable belts (yes, turntable belts) in need of a break-in period, including cartridges. This, you can measure with your ears.

According to this logic and your description all new cartridges we are buyin’ sounds very bad and we have to live with this bad souding gear for a long time (just to burn-in those gear for up to 500hrs sometimes) as you said in another post. That means even if we play records for 2hrs per day we have to wait more than 8 month to finally get the sounds right. This is rediculous! Then people sells their cartridges for example (and lose money), often with just 200hrs on it, because they are not happy about the sound or always looking for something better.

IMO It’s better to buy used cartridges and used equimpent and enjoy them in full effect from the first listening session.

BTW thanks to the new manufacturers like Zu Audio who sells their speakers with factory burned-in drivers.

@melm 

My experience with a new Art-9 was that it showed its basic attributes from day one.  It has improved ever since.  

Exactly, that's what i mean. Cartridge that doesn't sounds right after 20-30 hrs of burn-in time will not change it's BASIC attributes. And the improvement in the next 200hrs doesn't make one cartridge sounds like another cartridge, it's still the same cartridge tuned/voiced by manufactured to a sertain characted (as Nandric said), but slightly improved mechanicaly.

I'm sure every listening session depends on our mood and even time of the year (cold winter or hot summer when overall temperature is different can effect the sound of the cartridge). I live in the area when the temperature can drop down to -20C for some time in the winter and +30C in the summer.    

@jollytinker 

If you read Arthur Salvatore's description of the Zyx Universe II, he's nearly in tears on first listening to it because the cart sounds so awful. And yet by 50 hours it's the finest cartridge he has ever heard. that's a pretty radical difference. One may or not agree with him in general but he does have a ton of experience and a highly resolving system.  

I'm sure Arthur's ultra hi-end system is better than mine, along with his ability to buy cartridges like ZYX Universe II.  I have owned Zyx Airy 3 and later upgraded to Zyx premium 4D (thanks to mehran at sorasound). it was long time ago, but at that time i've bought dedicated Zyx headamp especially for my Zyx cartridge (based on Arthur's review when he praised so much this Zyx CPP-1 pre-preamp compared to many top SUTs). My ZYX Premium 4D SB2 was new and very nice from the start, i didn't noticed huge improvement in the first 50 hrs, can't remember how long i've been using my ZYX since then, but not so long unfortunately, later i have stupidly broke the cantilever! Luckily my back up cartridge was Audio-Technica ART-2000 Ltd. To be honest the price difference between $4500 Zyx (+ special Zyx CPP-1 headapm) and used $700 AT-ART2000 compared to the difference in sound quality between those carts, make me think the AT is a better cartridge.They are both high-resolution superb cartridges, but one can do everything (or a little less) just for 1/6 of the price of another, without hustle with sut or headamp. 

Anyway, when some people prefer different sound than Audio-Technica's house sound, i can totaly understand that. For some reason my vintage Argent MC500HS high output MC with sapphire cantilever sounds much better to my ears than any other MCs i have tried, including the most expensive ZYX Premium 4D. Maybe i will change my opinion when i will find something better, who knows. 

You have to try JLTi phono stage, it’s absolutely amazing for any MC or MM cartridges. The best feature is RCA plug load resistors of any kind, so it is fully flexible in terms of R load, you can try whatever resistor you want to find the best for your mc or mm. Only a few phono stages will give you so much flexibility. it’s a solid state devide build around Diamond Transistor. Here is the old version. And you can simply google the latest version available from Australia. 

@avanti1960

I swapped in my well broken in Ortofon 2M black for a bit and was literally shocked at how noisy and edgy it sounded in comparison to the ART9.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Try to test AT’s own top of the line MM design from the golden era (AT-ML180 or AT-ML170) against your new ART9 and then you can make a decision what it the best (MM or MC).

The ortofon 2m is not in the same caregory ar all, personally i think it’s a rip-off compared to top vintage mm carts available nos for half of the price of ortofon 2m.

To get the best from MM cartridge we have to take care not only aboput phono Cable Capacitance, but also about Load Resistance. Try to load MM cartridge higher than standard 47k ohm, using Naked Foil Vishay 100k ohms audio resistors (from Texas Components). Most of the MM cartridges sounds much better at 100k ohm. This upgrade cost nothing (about $36 for Vishay resistors + soldering), but it will give you the best upgrade for the money you have ever tried for MM cartridges. Vintage MM cartridges are much better anyway. This is where they become competitive with most of the MCs imo. So i will second that JLTi phono stage (under $800 now) is the best for experiments with load resistors as you can simply soldeging them in RCA plugs and easily change (plug-in or plug-out) by going higher from 47k or even lower. Same with LOMC cartridges (end a bunch of R of different values) as the JLTi is a high gain stage designed to work with 0,02 mv MCs and higher.

@lewm

I am unfamiliar with the guts of the JLTi. If you have no resistor plugged into the aux phono inputs, is there then no load at all in place? In other words, is it designed such that one MUST plug some resistance into those inputs?

By default JLTi phono sage comes with 47k ohms internal resistors for MM and a pair of 100 ohms RCA plug resistors if you want to switch to high gain MC position.

But my custom made JLTi comes with 500k ohms internal resistors (Dlalolum used the same configuration), so i can plug-in whatever resistor using a pair of RCAs for MM or MC cartridges. All i need is just to switch gain for high or low position.

Some people prefers JLTi over Southerland and many other (up to $3500 in price) phono stages. it’s easy to find audiogoner’s comments or Fremer review. Personally i like it so much, now it’s even cheaper (under $800 for Australian made version) than previous luxury Swiss made version ($1795) designed by Allen Wright.

From the manufacturer website:
"The name denotes that this is a Solid State device using something that is called Diamond Transistor Theory, rarely used on High-End Audio products. The most simple and linear audio voltage amplification device is a Vacuum Triode which consists of three electrodes only. They are the Grid (input), Cathode (grounding) and Anode (output). On the other hand, the Solid State Transistor is a current device but is nowhere near as linear as the Triode. It consists of Base (input), Emitter (grounding) and Collector (output). The idea behind a Diamond Transistor is actually a composite circuit that emulates the near perfect and linear Transistor as a current device with the same three electrodes in the circuit then becomes the equivalent of the Base, Emitter and Collector followed by a Unity Gain Buffer.Our Diamond Transistor eschews feedback completely and uses Passive EQ" READ MORE

@sbank 

If I understand, this suggests that with MM carts you will want to experiment with going from 47k down to 2k or somewhere along that range. The GIANT thread here on MM implies that consensus view on changing away from 47k is in the other direction up to 100k or even more.

Right, for MM cartridges the 100k is universal and in most cases much better than standard 47k. All my MM cartridges sounds better at 100k.  

As for the MC and MM/MI:
In conversation with Joe Rasmussen of the JLTi i've learned this: 

"Do not be afraid to do the opposite, for example, find the resistance 
of the cartridge's coil, it is usually in the specs. Now multiply that with about 1.6x and find the resistor value near that. Rather than unloading by going high, this in fact causes the coil to produce more current and hence this introduces electromechanical damping - the output will be lower, so keep that in mind, and  explore the final value, deciding by listening. For example, my Benz MC is 38 Ohm (38R) and I am using 68R load resistors. Yet a friend used nominal 47K and never tried my recommendation, so don't be afraid to try 'electromechanical damping' as it too can be tuned and  you may like it also, even possibly better. A friend with a Grado Platinum MI cartridge ended up using 2K2  resistors (2K1 when in parallel with 47K). I think the DC resistance is 600R. He  said it was like getting a more expensive cartridge. With an Ortofon Jubilee with 6R coil, we gradually went lower and lower until 10R and the owner went Wow!"  

P.S. It was a pleassure to deal with Joe Rassmussen, i ended up with a bunch of resistors he gave me (and RCAs) to experiment with different cartridges and a custom JLTi phono stage which is reasonably priced! I'm sure Joe can answer all the questions by email.    

@nandric

Dear chakster, Despite my assumption that your intention is to praise your own ART 2000 I agree with you arguments and wll try to provide some more. There is this ’’tuning wonder’’ of which only grand masters are capable. But this imply that they are also clairvoyant.

I.e. that they know how their cart will sound , say, 100 hour after those are sold. To put this otherwise. What is the sense of ’’tuning’ if the cart is supposed to sound ’’totally different’’ later on?

Totally agree, but the ART2000 has been sold recently :)
I'm on MM/MI/MF side in general. 

@sbank 
haha, not really.
MF is "Moving Flux" generator patented by Mitachi Corporation (Japan) If you are not familiar with Glanz MF or Astatic MF cartridges. The best in Glanz series is mega rare MF61 which goes for 1500 pounds (luckily i have one). The rarest in Astatic series is MF 2500 acording to Raul's info (i don't have it). Both made by Mitachi in Japan.   

It would be nice to read some comments from people who tested ART9 against some serious cartridges, not comparing AT with common Denon 103 or Ortofon 2M (even $150 vintage MM cartridges sounds much better than those carts). 

Anyone can post a picture of the ART9 stylus to check how did they mounted the tip on the cantilever? It is probably glued ??? I wonder why nowadays designers use this method instead of the old method (see below)?

If you will take a look at top quality vintage Audio-Technica AT-ML series from the 80s you will see that there is no glue and it's the state of the art techniques to put the tip on Beryllium cantilever (restricted for use nowadays, but probably better than boron). Same techniques has been used on top of the live JVC Victor, look here. On JVC the diamond tip goes through the hollow pipe boron cantilever. Same with the ADC Astrion sapphire cantilever here. Also the same method used by Technics, look here. I took those pics on my macro lens. 

@avanti1960

I also believe that comparisons to the Ortofon 2M black are valid and significant because it is a highly regarded, high value, universally praised cartridge by critics and consumers alike.

Have you tried old Ortofon M20FL (fine line) against your new 2M Black? Or Stanton 881s mk2  or maybe 981 (stereohedron) which kills 2M for much less money.

I wish i could come up with my Audio-Technica AT-ML170 and AT-ML180 VM OCC from the 80’s. It would be nice to compare ART9 MC to the best AT’s vintage MM, they are in the same price range today, but the technogy has changed. Look here how the diamont mounted on the cantilever. Those two AT-ML models are the ultimate MMs ever, hard to imagine today price for them if AT could make them, their new MMs are far away from their top products from the 70s/80s, so why their new MC must be better?

Those vintage AT-ML 170 and AT-ML180 VM OCC are much better than newly made ART2000 MC i have owned (it was good cartridge too).

So i’m curious why not compare Audio-Technica’s own stuff to find out what is better. At least they are from the same family tree.

The Japanese rate their compliance differently than USA. Audio-Technica Dynamic compliance: 18 × 10-6 cm/dyne (100Hz). Is this to compliant for this arm?

18 x 1.7 = 30.6 cu @ 10hz 

So 30cu is what you have to take in count along with your tonearm effective mass. 

Should be fine for mid and light arms