Origin Live Tonearms

NOT MUCH FOCUS HERE ON THE ACTUAL TOPIC....ORIGIN LIVE TONEARMS

@noromance you have a nice analogue rig. Your comment on not using anti skate on your 12" tonearm because it sounds better is what I typically hear from others. I personally believe that tonearm science is very much an art where the slightest little adjustments have a noticeable affect. I recently just finished making adjustments to my Thorens TP16 Mk1 and it's tracking better than before however it's still just a utilitarian tonearm. The most noticeable issues that I've been having are slight pitch/tonal fluctuations, especially regarding solo piano, i.e. Glenn Gould Beethoven Sonatas Speakers Corner/Columbia. These groove are tricky and I don't think the TP16 is up to the task. So while it's a mono dedicated table, I think the cost of the OL Encounter is justified. I wish I could hear those London/DECCA cartridges.

My observations on 12" vs 9" and anti-skating.

A well-fettled slate 401 with 9 and 12" Jelco TK850 tonearms.

The 9" has a slightly more incisive bass and tempo. Almost a CD quality to its delivery across all frequencies. Best for rock and electronic. The 12" goes a little deeper, has better dimensionality, naturalness, sweetness, air and space, with finer highs. Best for jazz and voice.

I do not use anti-skate on the 12" except when there’s a warp or dimple. It simply sounds better with it off. Note that I use London-Decca cartridges with no cantilever which likely impacts how AS impacts playback.

@goofyfoot you inquired " I'm assuming you get paid for this? "

I have never been remunerated for time or expenditure, the reward is plentiful enough, being involved with the skilled and creative types learning from them and witnessing their conceptions become realised. 

I have for numerous years (30ish), built a social networking with likeminded individuals around my interest in HiFi equipment used to enable a Recorded Music Replay.

I chose not to be lone listener in a room many years past.

I am totally satisfied with the miles travelled and experiences encountered and the influences that have had a substantial impact on how I have built a system.

Some experiences have been so fulfilling, my system has as a result, Commission Designed /Built devices, that are proving extremely good choices.

Not much in use is Branded Goods or remains true to a Brands Model that was once offered as part of a Catalogue Item..

It may be a generational thing but I've heard older friends of mine say that they believe tonearms sound better with the anti-skate off. Also, I've read where certain tonearm makers have claimed that a 12 inch tonearm is long enough not to need anti skate. Of course, I've always used anti skate and understand the principles and what it accomplishes. There seems to be a lot of differing opinions on this topic alone.

@goofyfoot , beats the thunder out of me. Look at the arms from well established companies such as SME, Kuzma, Schroder, Reed, Origin Live, Basis, SAT and so forth. You see any of them without anti skating on any of their offset, pivoted arms?

Here is a rule of thumb, any offset pivoted arm without antiskating is junk. The maker has no concept of the physical forces involved trying to get a cartridge to track a groove accurately.  

If you do not like anti skating you do have choices. The Reed 5A and 5T, the Schroder LT, The Clearaudio linear tracking arms, the Kuzma Air Line and other air bearing arms all lack anti skate mechanisms. The one thing they all have in common is they all have straight arm wands, no offset. 

@pindac All-right, I misunderstood. So you're involved in research and development. I'm assuming you get paid for this? I had a friend, now passed, who I had encouraged to develop a tonearm due to his level of skill, experience and knowledge but he had no ambition and stated that there was no money in it. These bespoke tonearms are certainly nice (and usually expensive) but I have to wonder how they can compete with big companies like Kuzma or SME. There's the, 'I can build a beautiful and refined sounding tonearm of the highest quality' side and there's the business 'I need to make as much money as possible ' side and I'm not so certain that very many folk can do both.

@goofyfoot Note: I have no vested interest in any of the items referred to in the following, I have been receiving invites, to be part of the assessment team during the evolving R&D.

The Tonearms in question are now, following a very successful working Prototype,  Blinged for the Aesthetic Appearance and produced as a Batch in this Aesthetic.,

The assembly is to be assessed for consistency in performance of the finished item.

Once the Mechanical Consistency is evident, Arms will be compared as identical builds in the differing Wand Lengths.

Other Wand Lengths will have a different Wand Wire, to make discoveries about the Signal Path. 

This is where the introduction of other Tonearms will enter into the assessment period.

When all is done, the Tonearm will receive a Model Name and there will be a Brand Name as well, as the producer, has their own range of EE Items to take to the Market. 

@mijostyn Then why are so many twelve inch tonearms intentionally made without anti skate?

@goofyfoot , anti skating is not a hindrance. It is a very important mechanism for any offset arm, 12" included. 9" arms are superior in every aspect except tracking angle error and the difference in tracking angle error is inconsequential. 

These tonearms, do they have a product name? Are they in the public domain? I’m just wondering. My understanding is that a 12 inch tonearm need not be hindered by anti skate and that this fact alone gives the longer tonearm an advantage. This is about the extent of my knowledge.

In the not too distant future, I will be receiving some of the fruits born from my encouragement, and will be in a position to be demonstrated the same New Design Tonearms in both 9" and 12" on the same TT, using the same Brand/Model Cart's with a very similar usage life.

There is also to be a selection of Types of Wand Wiring to see where the Signal Path is most benefitted. 

This same set up will also enable other Tonearm Brands to be A/B compared with same Cart's in use.

A new recent turnout has been that the Geometries for the New Design Tonearms are a relatively easy alteration and there will be a Overhung/ Underhung Geometry A/B compared as well, this can be done in both 9" and 12" if there is something discovered that is seemingly worthwhile having a furthering of the experience.   

I have donated a Cart', along with a selection of Tonearms to be A/B compared.  The Designer / Builder of the initial arms to be A/B compared, also has in their possession my no longer used SME IV to be compared in their early tests.

This will be the very first time, I will have been able to form a accurate view on the 9" vs 12" Wand and how the differing lengths effect a presentation, as these methods to be used for the demonstrating are not usually found readily available to be used.  

@pindac Interesting, I've gotten mixed opinions about the SME tonearms. Originally, it was suggested to me that if I wanted a good but less expensive option in choosing a turntable, that a Thorens TD 160 was a good place to start but that some modifications would be necessary, including the replacement of the stock Thorens tonearm. So replacing the tonearm was a priority even prior to the plinth replacement, dampening of sub chassis, etc... It's just taking me a while to get to it. And, I'd be willing to consider the OL motor upgrade however the Thorens motor is apparently one of the reasons it was so highly regarded back in the early 1970's. Anyway, the original Thorens stock tonearm is underwhelming and with a better tonearm such as the OL, having a better tonearm cable running directly from the cartridge to the phono stage is an ideal solution. My other consideration within the same price point as the Encounter is the Thomas Schick tonearm but as good as the Schick appears to be, I'm guessing that for a few hundred dollars less, the Encounter would be a better value. But back to your description of the Garrard 301, that tonearm would have been a 12 inch tonearm meaning it could render a better tone than the 9.5 inch tonearm however I'm hoping that not to be the case. Anyway, it looks as though I'll have to eventually use my credit card for a portion of the purchase cost.

@goofyfoot I have heard the Illustrious used with a Garrard 401 and have a long term usage of a 401 under my belt with a SME IV.

I never had a Cart' in use as the Sumiko Pearwood.

From Recollection, the experience of the Garrard 401 built into a Compressed Bamboo Plinth > Illustrious > Sumiko, mounted on a 2 X Tier of Panzerholz Board as a Sub Plinth, is possibly the best Idler Drive I have heard in a non owned system, and I would say this will possibly have been the outcome if the demonstration was in my own system.

The owner of the arm now has it mounted with Cart' on a Belt Drive Schue TT, which has been modified with a Origin Live Modified Motor.

I am yet to be demonstrated this, but the owner is claiming that it is as good as the SME 20/12 that was sold off not too long ago.  

Recently I missed a demonstration of comparisons between the Schue, and Two other TT's. 

@drrsutliff Given you've tried those OL tonearms and have a good opinion of the Encounter is encouraging. As mentioned, my sole purpose for this table is to make it a dedicated mono turntable with a very good cartridge, so I expect that the vertical tracking of this arm will handle grooves that present themselves with much of the difficulty I am currently experiencing. Especially titles involving piano.

@pindac I've also read that this tonearm sounds neutral and tracks effortlessly, giving a very natural presentation. I believe that's what sold me.

@goofyfoot I agree with your thoughts on looking to save for the Encounter.  This is the beginning of the Origin Live arms with their dual pivot bearings.  I have had an original Silver, Encounter, Illustrious, and now have a dual arm setup with a new Conqueror mk4 and Enterprise mk4.  The Encounter can handle most cartridges well that are not low compliance and provides better adjustability IMO.  It was my primary arm for a few years and it performed well with a Cartridgeman MusicMaker3, Benz Ebony H (retipped by soundsmith), and Ortofon Cadenza Bronze.  

I have a Silver on my Sota Escape and I think it is pretty nice.   It is much better than the Rega RB300 I had in the past.   Five year warranty is pretty good too

I have become familiar with the Encounter and the Illustrious, through being demonstrated them in use on another's owned system.

I have only heard them in use with a Sumiko Pearwood Cart', but can assure you, there is a very good presentation from this match, one that I class as very engaging and with lots of attraction.

@noromance Actually didn't know how right you were. However, I've decided to wait until I can afford the Encounter. I believe I'd be much happier with that arm than either the Silver or the Zephyr. Also, I just upgraded my renderer/streamer so I need time to absorb the financial impact. Thanks!

@mycarnival789 Sure I'm going to follow my heart or even more so, my wallet. I'm using a modified Thorens TD 160. It's essentially a TD 160 Super with the work I've put into it. So it's similar to your Linn but without the advantage of a decent Linn tonearm.

@wturkey Currently, I'm pretty set on it staying a mono table but you're possibly correct in that I'll eventually want to mount a stereo cartridge. I'd like for someone to actually insist that the Zephyr sounds better than the Silver ( if it's true) but I've only read that they sound the same, which of course is the impetus for this post.

Perhaps the Zephyr would be the better choice. Today it may only be used for mono recordings. A year from now, perhaps the tonearm will be used for Stereo recordings. Things change.....

I’m just a simple guy with a simple LP 12. I’ve never used a mono cart. What I can tell you is, I had a Rega and it was “ok”. I just got my OL silver and the improvement is striking. I don’t know what deck you are using so I can’t tell you the difference in resolution you would experience between the two but in my opinion, if money is no object, go big. Can’t hurt.  If it is an object, don’t overthink it. Get the silver.
 

There are a ton of opinions on these forums and passions run high. I run audio stuff I’ve read online by my trusted audio savant because of his vast knowledge and because he’s been doing this most of his life. He runs a bespoke audio showroom along with his father.  Previously he tuned my LP 12 to perfection. Half the stuff I ask that I’ve seen online, he shoots down as nonsensical providing technical explanations. This guy flys around the world setting up $100k+ systems for wealthy clients. He said that my silver is a good arm. He knows my budget and has always been a straight shooter. I kind of trust him. Don’t let the online white noise create confusion. Don’t obsess.  Follow your heart. Enjoy the music 

@dodgealum I just need to use a Dremel tool to cut away enough to fit the mounting plate. Fortunately, I've got some virtual help with doing this. So I'm getting that you believe the Silver to be a well built tonearm despite the Zephyr being more so. Once my cartridge is mounted and the alarm is adjusted, it'll be left alone.

The OL arms are top tier—even the Silver will outperform most arms at much higher price points. Don’t sweat it between the two you are considering. More important is comparability with your table and cartridge. Make sure this is aligned and then go for either one.

@noromance In a free market economy that pretty much amounts to anything.

I'm getting the impression that the Silver is cheaply made, that the bearings are like those in the older SME tonearms? That the arm tube possibly resonates? Regardless the Zephyr and the Silver sound the same, it's rather confusing.

It's your money and your decision. YOLO.

@noromance I can see where the extra $300.00 might be justified by getting an arm with better bearings. Better arm material would be a plus but not sure if it’s as important.

Get the Zephyr as it is the first in the OL Premium series with better bearings and arm tube materials. There’s a reason there are more Silvers on the market—the owners have upgraded.