Opinions on best integrated under 10k?
There are a number of things I have learned on this journey of integrateds....if you truly do get a full all in one well then you are stuck with that house sound for every aspect, dac, phono, headphone etc. To your point @uberwaltz .... which is why a 'classic' integrated (pre and amp) makes more sense to me vs. a 'super' integrated (all in one). |
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So not sure where I will end up yet, maybe I will just end buying a MA7900 or ML585 and be done with it all.
" Yeah, you're about where I am in thinking about this whole thing. There is also the new(ish) Anthem STR integrated, which has DAC and also phono. Right now, the top of my list is the ML 585, after hearing it at AXPONA. The McIntosh integrateds include phono and are more versatile, but they just don't sound like the 585. The new ML 585.5 also includes a top flight phono stage, but will set you back a pretty penny. |
There are a number of things I have learned on this journey of integrateds. I really do not need to spend 10k to get what I need, heck there are some super little integrateds out there for peanuts, take the Vincent sv236 for instance, can be had for 1k used! Also if you truly do get a full all in one well then you are stuck with that house sound for every aspect, dac, phono, headphone etc. If you can live with that perfect, if not and you want to change one aspect well then you need buy that component , add it into the mix and then you defeated the whole object of that integrated...lol. So not sure where I will end up yet, maybe I will just end buying a MA7900 or ML585 and be done with it all. Maybe I will keep the 2170 and ph10 and schitt magni as it works well. Maybe I will go back to all seperates again. Interesting voyage! |
Uber, Thanks for the update. I've come close to pulling the trigger on that Ayre a few times, but a little underpowered for the speakers I had at the time. I'm really interested in how the Esoteric sounds compared to the Lyngdorf for digital. Looks like the D-07 is an older DAC. I wonder how it compares to all the new technology digital has made recently. I'm looking at DACs now too, and there are tons of older models for great prices. Very tempting. |
Picked up an Esoteric d-07 DAC and an Ayre A7XE for very fair money and will be giving that combo a try out. Have to say will be hard to beat out the Lyngdorf in my main room but want to test this combo in there and hear what it can do. If not a better fit than the Lyngdorf then it will have a home probably with the Scansonic speakers in the upcoming summer home so it will all be good. |
I do not believe the beast I am looking for has truly been made yet so maybe a compromise is in order. Something along the lines of an integrated with tube pre section and a separate DAC although that puts me back to where I was a couple years ago. Oh what fun this hobby is. Maybe a BAT VK3000SE along with a Mytek Brooklyn or Benchmark DAC. |
How about this one? https://audiogon.com/listings/lis9258j-avm-audio-cs-2-2-award-winning-remarkable-solid-state If that link doesn’t work, the model is: AVM Audio CS 2.2 Just need speakers, and an internet connection. |
Sitting here listening to music on my second system and I am staring at the amp, and staring..... WTH? It fills all my checkmark I was looking for in main system! 3 rca analog inputs( can use rca out the ph10 phono) 2 spdif. 2 toslink. 1 Usb. 2 analog outputs( fixed and variable). Built in headphone amp. Tube in the preamp section. What is this beast?? Peachtree Audio Nova. ... Lol. So why can nobody build something similar on a higher fi scale? Even the newer nova150 and 300 are steps backwards for me as just 2 rca inputs and just 1 fixed analog output which is not sub friendly. Doh...... |
Here is a list of super integrateds from Darko, not a single tubed version in this particular mix: https://darko.audio/2018/07/15-must-hear-super-integrated-amplifiers/ (solitary exception of tubed linestage in the VR Lio) |
Audiotroy. The only reason was using the digital out for headphones was it was the only way left to do it. To drive subs and a headphone amp the prospective new amp would need to have 2 sets of analog outputs. Agreed on ph10 phono I could use rca instead of xlr. And yes I can run the Samsung bluray into tv via HDMI as I am doing but the sq when fed back through the tv toslink is noticeably inferior to the sq of the Samsung bluray feeding the 2170 with its own toslink. I have had time and opportunity to try most options available...lol. |
Highly consider the Naim Uniti Nova. It is a digital streamer, DAC, integrated amp all in a single chassis. It retails for $7500 brand new. It will drive your speakers with ease and sounded highly musical. Has superb streamer and DAC. Has built-in Tidal, Deezer, Quboz & Roon apps. Has both XLR & single-ended analog audio inputs as well as Ethernet, USB, spdif & Toslink digital inputs. It sounded extraordinary has rhythmic drive, tonal weight and tonal density you would normally expect from much more expensive unit. Excellent PRAT. very musical sounding unit. Highly recommended. |
uberwaltz you can easily do everything you are talking about you have your wiring scheme a bit wrong if you wanted to use an amplifier like the Synthesis A100t which does have an excellent built in coax spdif dac along with USB. GoldNote ph10 phono into xlr input Can go into a RCA as well Nakamichi 582 tape into rca input Easy Pioneer dv79 into rca input Easy Bluesound Vault into spdif Convert Toslink to coax and coax to usb Samsung TV into toslink Run Spdif output to amp use a toslink to coax converter Samsung bluray into toslink Run into TV Analog out set to run a pair of subs It has a set Digital out set to headphone running into an el cheapo digital to rca analog converter box to feed Schiit Magni 2 headphone amp. ( this actually sounds MUCH better than when I was running the analog out direct to the Magni 2 oddly enough) Almost none of the high end audio products that have dac’s built in have digital outputs Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ The other more common options tube integrated with outboard dac |
I have a Raven Integrated Reflection MK2 tube amp that drove Wilson's and now my Sonus Faber Amati Homage tradition speakers. My amp is 75 wpc and provides me awesome power and concert like sound. Take a look at the Raven website and then call Dave Thomson, the owner of Raven. He has some of the rarest tubes out there and his amps are a thing of beauty. |
@uberwaltz Can you relax your requirement for XLR connections? If you do find a product with these connectors (wrt. what you are looking for) they are likely not going to be true balanced anyways. That’s the first requirement I’d eliminate. An integrated DAC (or DAC module) is also a bottleneck and will really limit your choices. I’m glad @audiotroy brought up Synthesis. I was thinking that the Italian marque(s) would be your best bet, given your goals. All the best with your search. |
I'm still wanting a Mark Levinson 585 integrated, but I wish it had XLR outputs. It only has rca outs. The reason is that, if I got it, I would want to compare the 585 alone to the 585 outputs going into my Krell class A power amp and see what the difference would be. And I would want to use XLR connections in the comparison, but cannot do that with the 585. I'd love to simplify things and go with an integrated, but people here and elsewhere are telling me I'll regret giving up my Krell class A power amp. |
Actually that is not the worse idea I have heard for sure. A real pity the 2170 does not have two sets of analog outputs. If it did just trying a tube power amp could be worthwhile. But with just the one set I would then lose the outputs I am using for the subs right now. And I am really trying to avoid going backwards to the separate pre/DAC and power amp route again. |
Do you have to sell the 2170 to fund this purchase? You could always use the 2170 as a preamp, since it already has everything you need and run it with a nice tube amp. Hard to find a tube integrated with the digital inputs you’re wanting. My other thought would be to look at pre/dacs and and pair with a tube amp. If I could up my spending a bit more, I would go for a Mytek Manhattan II with a BAT VK-56. |
David, Yes I realise the Lyngdorf 2170 is going to be a hard act to follow after the flexibility I have gained from it. After all this is what I am doing with it right now and what ANY prospective amp will have to match. GoldNote ph10 phono into xlr input Nakamichi 582 tape into rca input Pioneer dv79 into rca input Bluesound Vault into spdif Samsung TV into toslink Samsung bluray into toslink Analog out set to run a pair of subs Digital out set to headphone running into an el cheapo digital to rca analog converter box to feed Schiit Magni 2 headphone amp. ( this actually sounds MUCH better than when I was running the analog out direct to the Magni 2 oddly enough) A lot to ask for indeed I know. |
We sell the Synthesis A100T Which has much of what you are asking for 100 Watts Kt66 power Built in Dac with usb and spdif Designed and built in Italy it sounds fantastic. Doesnt have xlr but you can use adapters to convert Xlr to RCA adapter that Cardas makes. This integrated amp sounds fantastic huge soundstage, great clarity, good bass and treble extension. The built in Dac was based on the companys 3k outboard dac Hard to find but a fantastic buy! Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Going to try to resurrect this rather than start a new thread entirely. Suggestions for a tube integrated that could handle my needs as I have never tried tubes and have an opportunity to set up in a new hopefully acoustically better room. So my requirements would be analog inputs both balanced and single ended , an onboard DAC that can handle 2 spdif and 2 toslink inputs, preferably a headphone amp and most definitely analog outputs to drive subs. Power does not have to be huge as I am running very efficient Triangle Altea ESW speakers. Long laundry list I know but no point in trying if I cannot achieve all features I desire. Thank you! |
Steve No problem at all If I had not tried the Lyngdorf I may have been tempted but everything else just sounds not quite right now. At least in my terrible acousticaly challenged room for sure! The RoomPerfect was a game changer and the digital performance is pretty outstanding with analog not being too far off the pace in all honesty |
@robelvick. I am sure you will enjoy it...again, maybe this time round the vinyl will be to your liking. I think it is a little more clinical on the analog side but my phono, cart and tt are fairly warm so it did not hurt my sq too much to have them "toned" down a tad. Let me know your thoughts once you get it and back in the system! |
@uberwaltz Just pulled the trigger on a used (9/10) 2170. All this Lyngdorf talk put me in "buy" mode. Excited to give it another shot. My TT and Phono stage have changed since the last time I was using the 2170. Maybe better results this time, and if not I'll have a great start to a second system... That's what I'm telling myself, at least. |
TBH, with the Lyngdorf running RoomPerfect if the voices were any more in the room with me they would startle me out of my seat! I certainly do not remember the Hegels as being slouchs in this department either but everybody is going to have a different result and opinion due to personal taste, equipment, music, rooms etc. Enjoy the music! |
I had the H160. I changed for separates , Luxman amp and Mac pre. What I got for grossly 4x the Hegel ´s price... Class A midrange richness...brass and sax sound have more meat on the bone, tube like density in the highs and smoothness, better clarity...voices are more in the room its spooky real, bigger soundstage, a little bit more articulation in the bass. My advice is get class A amplification ( or integrated). |
@robelvick. I only went with one option on the Lyngdorf, the analog input board to get xlr and enough analog inputs for my needs. They did not offer a phono option correct? I had no use for the HDMI board or the usb board so why waste dollars...lol. What phono stage were you using? I am using a dynavector p75 mk3 and am still happy enough with my vinyl sq for the time being. |
@robelvick. You could be correct on the vinyl, I would concur it has maybe lost a touch in the dynamics department compared to say the Hegel but vinyl only comprises maybe 20% of listening. Mainly Tidal streaming, Bluesound Vault 2 or even cd makes up majority of my listening so mainly digital which with roomperfect is very very nice indeed. Maybe in an acoustically better room to start with the Lyngdorf would not be so obviously better to my ears. |
@uberwaltz I had the Lyngdorf last year for a few months. My model had all the modules included. I absolutely could not use it without Room Perfect enabled, like you've said. I became quite suspicious that the SQ was degraded on purpose, just to emphasize the quality/importance of using Room Perfect. My backup integrated at that time was a Cambridge CXA80. The Cambridge sounded clearly better than the Lyngdorf (with Room Perfect turned off). RP turned on, Lyngdorf left the Cambridge in the dust. Digital with the Lyngdorf was quite fantastic, probably the best I've heard in my experience. But, I could not live with the sound of the analog going through the ADC. Vinyl playback lost it's warmth, and sounded too polite in my system. 80% of my listening is vinyl, so the Lyngdorf was sold. If I ever am able to have a second system, and it's digital only, I would not hesitate for one second to get another Lyngdorf. |
Have had the good fortune to test in home 4 integrateds over the past few months and all have their strengths and weakness. Hegel H-300. Very strong powerful amp, detailed bass, great presence only let down by no headphone socket or even a way to connect a headphone amp or it may still be in my system. Hegel H-160. As above really, maybe a tad less defined in the bass area but still strong, however I did not realise it only had 3 total analog inputs at time I purchased. The headphone output was good but not as good as a dedicated headphone amp of quality. The onboard DAC on both Hegels was very good imho and for my needs. Still I thought bass was a little uncontrolled in my room so...... Lyngdorf 2170, read much good on the RoomPerfect room correction software and this is indeed the case for my needs. Down on power compared to the Hegels but more than enough to drive my Wilsons combined with the room correction means the sq is gloriously well controlled, no excess bass that spoils the picture, no more swapping cables to try and "tone" the sound to my liking. This one I think I can live with for quite a while. It has a very good built in DAC, plenty of software options for settings to match input levels, rename inputs, set output functions etc. At the same time I did acquire a Classe Sigma 2200i. This I have been swapping in and out comparing to the Lyngdorf but I am now spoiled by the RoomPerfect as nothing sounds quite right now. The Classe has power to spare, a very nice onboard DAC and fairly decent software to boot. But again bass in my room is a little bloated but I know that is the room which is why it looks like the Lyngdorf is the winner for now. One thing these exercises have taught me is that todays breed of integrated is a vastly different animal from days of old and for me I just d not see me returning to seperates although they make it easier to upgrade just one aspect like the DAC etc. For my needs today an integrated of quality is all I need and quite happy so far, until upgraditis sets in of course! |
Well now have a few more hours on it and it is certainly making a good impression. Not sure if it is breaking in or just I am adjusting to a " different" sound but it seems less harsh and brittle and just such tight controlled bass. It is so good on the roomperfect that I cannot stand to listen to the amp with it switched off now. I think it has made a huge improvement in the sq in,my very poor room which was exactly what I hoped for. Hard to describe its "house" sound but neutral with perhaps a slight emphasis on the top end? But again still only about 15 hours of run time so plenty of time for evolution yet. Is it the best integrated out there? Obviously not. But it does seem to be doing the best job of conveying music in my room to my ears so far. And that is all that matters..... |
The Hegel 360 is rather good but not great. I could live with it. However, the integrated I want to hear is the new Luxman 509x. The new top of the line for them. It has most of the specs you want except digital inputs. It is also rated at 125 watts, but that is supposed to be a conservative figure. Magazine review in the UK measured it around 165 watts. |
The Lyngdorf arrived this morning so straight to work it goes! First thing was to run the Room Correction which is so easy to do you would be foolish to bypass this step, about 20 minutes to map as many different positions in your room as you care to with the supplied mike and stand. After that I set up the names for my inputs and sensitivity and then it was time to rumble....but there was no rumble. Instead with Room Correction engaged and in Focus mode( seated listening position) it was just good clean solid music, strong and defined bass but no bloat or boom at all. Turning Room Correction off revealed a sound that although not terrible was definitely vastly inferior to my ears in the bass regions which is exactly where my setup and room has always suffered. Of course it is early days as amp only has about 3 hours run time so sq will change but so far the Room Correction is doing everything I hoped it would for me. To be continued....... |
One of the nice aspects of the Lyngdorf is that you can run the room correction software and calibrate it and then you can play with it switched off or in focus or farfield so as to get an instantaneous comparison of the effectiveness of it. I believe that even after it has done its thing you can still tailor it to suit if you think you know better....lol |
