Only $800 to work with streamer/power for 3rd system
Speakers will be NHT C1 bookshelf pair with Sunfire SDS8 mini sub. These are already in house. Hope to keep the streamer/power solution to $800 total, given the modest speakers.
Other considerations: Really want 32-bit DAC and MQA capability. Don't need much power. Don't need storage or ability to control storage - just Tidal streaming, but want Tidal support natively built-in. Don't want to use my phone or computer because already using them at work - want the streamer/power solution to handle. On second thought I guess control app from phone is okay, just don't want to be bluetooth streaming from phone or computer. Would prefer new, not used, but factory refurbished is okay with warranty. Won't use other sources, just Tidal. Don't want multi-channel AVR, only need stereo.
The two options I'm most focused on are Bluesound Powernode 2 or 2i, and the Integra DTM-7 stereo receiver, each of which are single-box solutions. Other options could be PS Audio Sprout 100 integrated for $600 (or NAD, Marantz, other integrated similar cost?) with a separate streamer, but I'm not aware of a separate streamer for $200 that has a 32-bit DAC and handles MQA. Yamaha WXAD-10 seemed close but best I can tell (not real clear) I think it has 24 bit DAC and anyway it'd push total closer to $1000 with Sprout.
I am familiar with the Integra DTM-7, as I have the DTM-7 as the HT hub of my current bedroom system, and with its HDMI/Dolby Vision/HDR support it is killer in that role for $650 for a 2-ch setup. But for Tidal music the sound through the NHT C1's was a little bright and after couple hours slightly fatiguing for me, although doable if that's what I go with for 3rd system (I'd get another DTM-7 for office if that is way I go). I've since upgraded my 2nd system speakers to Spendor SA1 and they sound great powered by the Integra in system 2, better combination - no more brightness/fatigue.
But now with the NHT C1 speakers freed up for system 3, I'm wondering if I can do better than the Integra for a music-only application for my office. Has anyone compared sound quality of Bluesound Powernode 2 (or 2i) with the Integra? Does Bluesound have a warmer sound? FWIW I know the Integra is class A/B, and I think Bluesound is class D. Oddly, I think Powernode 2 and 2i share same amplifier and DAC (but 2i includes some new features that I probably wouldn't use - Airplay, etc.), yet What Hifi review claims sound much improved with 2i. Powersound 2 is $600 now, while 2i is $800.
Or am I overlooking a better solution? Thank you
bad news: nothing meets those requirements at the moment good news: i expect by this time next year SMSL and Topping will both have ESS and AKM chips in a box that does MQA and has wireless streaming capability for around $800. Streaming can always be added economically now with various doodad boxes. MQA is the tough part because you need at least an XMOS XU216 receiver chip to implement native MQA. |
canibefrank, Integra DTM-7 has AKM4438 32-bit DAC and decodes MQA, 100Wx2 (8 ohm) for $650 (and DTM-6 for less). https://www.audioxpress.com/news/mqa-announces-integra-as-new-hardware-partner-while-onkyo-and-pioneer-further-expand-mqa-choices-for-custom-install-sector But the Integra isn't ideal to my ears with my NHT speakers. Also, Bluesound claims to support MQA https://support1.bluesound.com/hc/en-us/articles/219124068-Does-Bluesound-Support-MQA but I don't know which DAC they use, although it is 32 bit. So at least those are two solutions that I'm aware of for what I was considering, was wondering if anyone knew of others and whether Powernode 2 or 2i might be a better match to my NHT C1's. Thanks, |
Biggest question is why do you need 32bit support, is there any true 32bit software out there yet? I'm betting the highest you'll find is 24bit with any regularity and even that stuff most likely isn't true 24bit. Think up-sampling. I'm not trying to start a war here but its something to really think about when you look at the higher bit depth or lack of them to really justify needing a 32bit DAC. |
For context, I stream Tidal via a Teac NT-505 and can definitely hear the mqa difference vs regular flac tidal thru my Spendor D7’s in my main system. Maybe expecting too too much to be able to notice the quality difference when talking about NHT C1’s and an $800 streamer/amp combo though??? Dunno ... |
It’s really nice. Im not good at describing sound qualities but the spacing of instruments seems better (more separation) if that makes sense compared to my Integra dtm7. To be honest I can’t hear mqa sound difference with the Integra even with the SA1’s, let alone the NHT’s. I havent played with the Teac filters yet so can’t speak to them. The Teac interface program not great but LUMIN program not bad. I run it in xlr balanced to Audio Research DSI200 to D7. |
I found the following review comparing the Onkyo to the Bluesound Node 2i. I've been looking around for the last few months for a new streamer myself. at the $800 price point, with your wish list, it's really hard to beat the Powernode 2i. I only have two problems with it: support by email only and I wish it had some type of room correction. I really like the NAD M10 streamer, but at $2500, it's more than three times the price of the PowerNode 2i. Full disclosure, I've never heard the Onkyo unit. ------------------------ The Onkyo TX-8250 is a basic, straightforward music streamer at an affordable price. No more, no less. It gives you all the features you'd expect, the ability to control them, and then gets out of the way. The lack of digital album art, Roon capability, and the like are reflected in the price. For the most part, the TX-8250 was just designed to get the job done. The problem is, while it is a very solid streamer in its own right, and certainly a viable option, it pales in comparison to the excellent (and less expensive) Bluesound Node 2i. We struggle to imagine getting the basic Onkyo, with its average sound and dated design, over the exciting, dynamic Bluesound. We don't mean to shortchange Onkyo – their streamer does have features that the Bluesound doesn't, like a digital display, and there are some solid options for the price. But it's never going to be anything other than a reputable alternative to the more interesting models on this list. |
Thanks, prpixel. Yeah agree on NAD M10. Wish it was $1500ish instead of $2500. I wouldn't be looking at it for this budget system I'm currently working on but it would be perfect for my BR. Yeah that Onkyo TX-8250 looks kinda similar to the Pioneer SX-S30. Lower cost, lower spec 2 ch receiver that'll stream most stuff. I don't want to go that low on this application. Onkyo is a sister company to Integra, and between them I think they have 4 two-ch receiver/streamer models. Onkyo 8250 looks like the budget model. Then around $450-550 the Onkyo 8270 and Integra DTM-6, and finally Onkyo DTM-7 at $650, which I own. I suspect the four models sound similar, although many dealers say Integra is the premium brand of the two, and uses higher-quality parts in some cases. In any event, I was hoping to improve upon the sound quality of the DTM-7, so nothing that I listed directly above in this post likely to do that. Room correction - yeah, that's a tough one to find at these prices. Marantz has in in some of their sub-$1000 receivers but they don't have 2-channel offerings like Integra as far as I know, otherwise I'd be very interested in Marantz. |
It's odd that the review would compare the Onkyo 8250 (streamer and amp) with the Bluesound Node 2i (streamer only), as opposed to the Powernode (streamer and amp, which would seem like a better apples-to-apples), but clearly the review contends Bluesound streamer beats Onkyo. Nevertheless, useful info - |
Marantz has the PM6006 integrated amp for $700 but it doesn’t include a streamer built-in. It’s too bad because Marantz does include nice streamers in their AV receivers (e.g., the 5012, now discontinued, was a 7.2 ch amp available on closeout for $600 for a time, and it had a really nice streamer with AKM4438 32-bit DAC, 115dB S/N - which are better stats than the Powernode PCM 5122 DAC (112dB S/N). I suspect if that streamer was included on Marantz PM6006 it would best Powernode 2i in sound quality (purely speculation though). But it’d probably cost $1000 instead of $800 ??? And that 5012 had Audyssey room correction too! |
To correct something I stated above where I speculated that Yamaha WXAD-10 might have a 24 bit DAC, it is indeed 32-bit, using Burr Brown PCM5121 DAC according to this review https://www.techradar.com/reviews/yamaha-wxad-10-musiccast-add Doesn't do DSD and nothing about MQA mentioned but still seems pretty good for $350, streamer only. |
The integra DTM-7 doesn't list MQA as a supported format. Also, DSD is only supported over HDMI. As far as streaming goes, it uses Chromecast and Play-fi. While Play-Fi will unfold MQA, it down samples it to 16/44, or 24/192 if you have the dedicated single device hi-res option selected. That blurb about the Onkyo came from an article titled "The 20 best streamers of 2019" I found more units that meets your criteria: Cary Audio AiOS $2999.00 and Cocktail audio x14 ($900) and X35 ($2000). Not sure about the DAC in the X14. |
See this article re Integra https://www.stereonet.co.uk/news/integra-the-latest-to-join-mqa-masters-race I believe MQA support was following a firmware upgrade. Anyway, I see the MQA icon on my TV screen when I stream Tidal MQA selections via the DTM-7 and I can search out Master's folders, etc., thru the built-in app, so it supposedly works. I just can't hear the sonic difference on that system. Cool, will check out the Cocktail, price in ballpark |
And this MQA page lists Onkyo as a partner but not Integra. https://www.mqa.co.uk/customer/our-partners Hmm, now I'm confused ... |
The 12/18/2018 firmware update added MQA playback: The 12/18/2018 update will address the following and includes previous updates: 1. Adds support for TIDAL Masters. • To listen to TIDAL Masters, you need to upgrade to a TIDAL HiFi Member. 2. Minor bug fixes and improvements stability. 3. Adds support for MQA file playback. --------------- From the manual: To play MQA files on this unit, you can either connect the USB storage device or HDD (*1) containing the MQA files to the USB port of this unit or use the "Music Server" functionality of this unit to play MQA files stored on an NAS or PC. Note that the "Music Server" feature does not support playback of WAV format MQA files. It can play FLAC format MQA files that are provided by music distribution services. Refer to this unit’s instruction manual for playback operations. • To playback MQA-CD, download the MQA-CD music files and use the MQA Tag Renaming Application to manage files*. This application can examine files ripped from CD, determine whether they are MQA and build a subfolder containing correctly formed MQA files. Files that are not MQA remain unchanged. * The link to MQA Tag Renaming Application: -------------------------------- Remember, MQA is a wrapper for compressing WAV/FLAC files down to use less bandwidth. So, supposedly no difference between original file and MQA sound quality. Only difference is smaller file size. I don't own any MQA files, so can't comment on sound differences. With cheap storage these days, and 1TB internet caps, I don't worry about file sizes. ----------- The Cocktail X14 only has a small amp in it. Said the guy currently listening to a WADIA 25WPC amp. ---------------- My phone has a 32bit DAC in it. Also, 1TB memory card with 3000 FLAC encoded Albums. It's really great to be able to take your entire collection on vacation or to the Dentist! -------------- I'm soooooooooo close to pulling the trigger on the M10. Trying to justify the purchase. |
Ah, I guess I really mean MQA plus Tidal Masters higher res stuff better than the 16 bit / 44 kHz since that’s how Tidal rolls and all I use. What are your your other contenders in $2.5k range? Off top of head could do the Cambridge Audio streamer and a 1.5-1.7k integrated like Rega Elex or a Musical Fidelity or ... if u are open to two components |
If I had to choose between Denon and Integra, I'd choose Denon. Tidal Masters are up to 24/192, but no way to tell which sample rates/bit depths until you play a track. Not sure about Cambridge and MQA/Tidal. I think the Niam Uniti at $3300 does. I'm looking for something small and one box solution. I currently have my "rig" on a shelf under my desk. Space is tight so no full size units or receivers for me. |
Thx, hifihandymsn. Good to know. Ya, Bluesound is the name I keep coming back to at this budget and the front runner, although I may wait a month or so to see if marantz follows Denon (sister companies) announcement today and puts out a 2ch streamer/pwr product similar but hopefully bit of step up from product Denon announced today. I’m a big marantz fan and like both the quality of their current HT receiver amplification and HEOS streamer. |
Updating a previous comment re TEAC NT-505, I seem to have (fingers crossed) fixed the drop problem by swapping out a 10 ft cat6 Ethernet cable for a 3ft cat7 Ethernet cable ( Amazonbasics, $6). Let’s hope so ! To earlier comment of “buy another one,” I wish!! Still peeking head out of doghouse from recent purchases haha. Back to point of this thread, I’m starting to let mind wander about raising budget to $1200ish which opens more possibilities. Stop it, stick to your guns - but to be thorough you gotta also consider the step up right?? Ahhh, choices .... |
If I drop the MQA requirement - and from what I can tell so far, 99% of Tidal is non-MQA - I could do a two-box solution for $50 or $150 less than the Powernode 2i. Integrated Amp: marantz pm5005: all analog integrated 40 wpc, class AB, $500 new or $400 refurbished. Streamer: Yamaha WXAD-10, uses same dac series as Powernode 2i (TI PCM5121 (vs 5122)), analog only outs. Hard to find in US but eBay from UK for $250 gotta see if works in USA without adapter. Will be impossible to to compare them head2head though I imagine... |
If you're dropping MQA, then Paradigm PW AMP, with room correction, on sale for $225.00 through Paradigm. Doesn't have 32 bit. Have you taken a look at 32bit files sizes? a 6 minute song of 32/384 is 1TB! If you want a little more power, SVS Soundbase for $500. It's an office system, so I would think small size would be preferable. Remember KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid. Ordering something on Ebay from UK, that can't be return, is a big gamble. Ultimately, it's your decision. Buy something that your comfortable with. |
Thanks for those. I figured out Yamaha WXAD-10 is a European product, but the Yamaha streamer plus amp WXA-50 for $500 or WXC-50 streamer/preamp for $350 are available in US. After reading lots lots of reviews, many with experience relate that the BlueOS operating system is really well above anything else at the price level. I think I definitely need to factor that, and for that reason Powenode 2i probably still leading contender for now ... |
Well I'm still sitting on my hands waiting and haven't pulled trigger yet. Really trying to stay low budget here with this rig and getting tempted by the Yamaha WXA-50 streamer/amp for $500 new or $400 refurb. Significantly cheaper than Powernode 2i and I know we're only talking hundreds of dollars here but still. Yamaha has a 24-bit ESS Sabre 9006A dac and won't do MQA (but does have Tidal built in), but the s/n stats on the dac chip are really good (120 dB; -102 dB) for this cost tier (better than specs in dac chip in Powernode 2i, for example (112 dB), and yes I know that is just one factor of many affecting sound quality). As to Musicast interface v Bluesound, I know it'll be worse but from what I can tell from reviews it isn't that bad. Thinking possibly a Node/Brio 2-box combo for my 2nd system soon to relegate the Integra to HT-only, where the Node/Brio could eventually migrate to my 3rd system and then I'd kick the Yamaha to wife's listening area that she doesn't yet know she needs (mostly to get her to stop asking me to play her songs on main rig at home, haha). Long term planning, right??? Haha |
As I wrestle with this choice I keep finding other lower-cost potential options that if I go with might free up some capital to upgrade system 2 sooner. So now in addition to Powernode 2i, Yamaha WXA-50, I'm also considering the $200ish Paradigm PW Amp (mentioned by prpixel above) and the Klipsch Powergate. (each of these last three blowing my original 32 bit and MQA requirements out of the water, but as others have commented maybe I don't really need those features today with state of content). Although for the life of me from reading the description of the Klipsch Powergate I cannot tell if it has a streamer built in, or not. The literature talks of streaming music via Play Fi to wireless speakers from the Powergate, but it is less than clear (to me anyway) regarding wither the Powergate itself has a streamer built in or whether I'd need to feed it streamed Tidal from another device. |
Looked hard at very inexpensive Paradigm PW Amp and Klipsch PowerGate, both 24 bit class D streamer amps for about $200. Was more interested in the Klipsch and almost pulled trigger on it, but now I’ve eliminated each of them. Ive sort of swung up and down the rollercoaster between “this is sooo inexpensive (thereby freeing funds for 2nd system upgrades or upgraded 3rd Sys speakers) and it’ll sound good enough,” and “just spend more now and get something you can keep longer term.” i went the latter route route in past year completely overhauling my main rig (and am thrilled with result), but ironically that also pushing me toward the former due to shortage of current funds. But on end, I decided after reading tons of reviews and user comments (audition not an option) that the Klipsch and Paradigm probably would leave me wanting. I’ve also eliminated the Integra DTM7 because I already have that unit as HT hub of Sys 2 and don’t love it with the NHT C1’s. So I am down to Yamaha WXA-50 ($500) and R-N803 ($750), and Bluesound Powernode 2 ($600) or 2i ($800). Leaning for now toward R-N803. Don’t need the small form factor of the others, like the beefed up power supply and analog output stage, like 2 sets of speaker outs cause I’m sure I’ll want 2 sets hooked up for a/b compares while I should be working, and musiccast now much better and more stable and natively supports tidal. Also has ess9006 which is pretty solid dac chip better I think than that in powernode. But Yamaha only 24 bit and doesn’t do mqa, those are the downsides. Whatever i I end up with, I’m pretty excited about a $1000 system I’ll have put together. |
This quest has been interesting. Unlike my main rig overhaul effort, where I (no kidding) probably spent close to 50 hrs auditioning in person at least 15-20 speaker sets and amps before settling on D7’s (that were auditioned 3-4 times kept coming back over that period), this time has been all virtual (stakes not nearly as high, though still has been dozens of hours reading and contrasting). Will be a good test to see if I can get satisfactory results here as I did there |
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Well as I anticipated several weeks ago when Denon released its new streaming stereo receiver, today Marantz announced the nr1200 for $549 and it looks very interesting. Marantz had big gap of no stereo receivers in their lineup and nice to see it filled. 75w to 8 ohms, hi res 24/192 streaming with native tidal (but not mqa), bt and AirPlay 2, Alexa, HEOS, hdmi and full tv support (4K, hdr), what sounds like dual monaural dacs but as of yet haven’t seen chip type, separated channel amps with common pwr supply, etc. that’s a lot for $550. Interested to see what dac chip is. Recently marantz has used ak chips with their multichannel avrs. No word in press release of amplification class but appears from coverless photo to be class A/B rather than D. This is may have just jumped to top of my list ahead of Powernode 2 pending determining dac chip |
Took the plunge on a new white Bluesound Powernode 2. Pretty pumped, as got it for less than price of new Node 2i. Price kept dropping to point couldn’t pass up. Same amp and dac as Powernode 2i, just lacks some wireless, Bluetooth and Airplay functionality of the 2i that I don’t need anyway for my Ethernet application. So I’ll sport an office system of the Powernode 2 and NHT bookshelfs that checks in at $880 total. Looking forward to see how it sounds! Gotta keep the little Sunfire sub with system 2 due to glitch in plan to replace it, so NHT’s gotta man up on the bass, haha. Small room so should be fine. |
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Got the Powernode 2 installed and up and running. Setup quick and easy, apart from running Ethernet cable 25 feet through ceiling drop panels, not too bad though. Bluesound interface and updates easy and intuitive. I’d call interface similar to Lumin and Heos, probably a bit more full featured; better than Play-Fi. Tidal streaming seamless. Sound quality on initial impression with the NHT C1’s seems slightly better than that from the Integra DTM-7 stereo receiver that I have in my bedroom system when C1’s were there. At least it sounds warmer, which is what I wanted because got some listener fatigue with the Integra/NHT combo. Now is it as full-bodied? Jury still out. Although because the Powernode 2 is deployed in office building I can’t play very loud (which would help with comparison) so there’s that ... Feeling good about things so far. Next on wishlist will be upgrading the Sunfire SDS8 sub in system 2 so I can get that little guy in here to rejoin the C1’s, missing the bass ... Waiting for neighbors to come knocking or pounding on walls ... So far, so good ... (maybe they also like to hear the blues?). Buddy Guy killing it as I turn it up a notch ... |
Well, I now have two days of lots of listening and not enough working with the Powernode 2. I think it’s getting better with run-in. Probably 10 hours now. I find its sound to be warmer and better match for my NHT C-1’s than was my Integra DTM-7 at home. But I still find that the DTM-7 could produce a meatier, fuller-bodied sound, able to dig a little deeper, at least so far; hopefully with more break-in the Powernode 2 will keep improving. All that said, I prefer the Powernode 2 pairing with the NHT C-1’s versus the Integra DTM-7 with the C-1’s (the Integra was just too bright, I felt, for these speakers), so in that sense I made the right choice, given these speakers. But the Integra DTM-7 with my Spendor SA1’s at home beats this work combo, but that’s likely because the SA1’s are about 4x the price of the C-1’s (even as Powernode 2 couple hundred $ more than the Integra), and my already known-to-me personal preference for Spendor generally over almost any other speaker brand available under $10k, at least as far as the couple dozen speakers that I tested when I went through extensive auditioning for main rig within last year. What I really need to do is sneak the SA1’s into work to test with the Powernode 2 to gauge the Powernode 2’s capability, but that would attract too much attention at home. I’m trying to keep this workplace update under the radar, if you know what I mean ... So, for those keeping score, I rank my second and third systems and combinations to extent I’ve heard them at this point: 1. Integra DTM-7 with Spendor SA1. 2. Powernode 2 with NHT C-1. 3. Integra DTM-7 with NHT C-1. |
I have now migrated the Sunfire SDS-8 subwoofer into the system to go with the Bluesound Powernode 2 and the NHT C-1 bookshelfs. The subwoofer is helping the sound quality for sure, and I think it'll remain here, leaving sys 2 without a sub for now because I spend so much more time with this system than with Sys 2. I find the Bluesound's inability to set sub cutoff frequency odd (fixed at 80 Hz), but at least with the NHT's rated to 70 Hz that is a good enough frequency match for now anyway. However, I had eventually planned to get some better bookshelves (e.g., Dynaudio X14 or Monitor Audio Silver or Gold or Kef LS50 or ???) and that feature might eventually prove to be quite limiting. I suppose that I can now, after 2 months or so, hear the slightest bit of improved sound quality streaming Tidal when the Powernode decodes Tidal Masters MQA tracks versus normal Tidal. For the longest time I could not. But to be sure, it is a minimal bump in quality, which I lay more at the feet of the system components limitations than on Tidal or MQA, because in my reference system at home I hear massive sound quality differences between Tidal Masters MQA and normal Tidal. So two months in I'm liking the setup okay. Not blown away by the quality for sure, but the interface is handy on ipad and sound quality beats the near-field desktop pc setup I had been running by a wide margin. (M-Audio actives, now used just for computer stuff). On the positive side, I can listen to music for 8 hrs straight here without listener fatigue, which was not the case when I had the NHT's paired with Integra at home, so Powernode has that going for it (albeit at lower volumes here obviously in a work environment with neighbor tenants). And on a further positive note none of the neighbors have come knocking on my door. My next upgrade will probably eventually be an upgraded set of bookshelf speakers within 18 months. |
So I’m in the office today on a Saturday and cranking (relatively speaking) this Bluesound Powernode 2 / NHT C-1 / Sunfire SDS8 system up to volumes that would not be permissible in this shared office building on a weekday during the work week, and ...... it sounds so much better when allowed to stretch its legs! Granted I’m only pushing it into the mid-60 db range from my listening location, but that is still a volume that would cause neighbors to knock or pound during the week. I’ll admit I’ve been a bit underwhelmed by the setup since I got it, but perhaps I’m spoiled by my systems at home and was expecting too much. But today as I sit here and listen to Tidal streaming through the Powernode 2 with the volume up a bit, it is REALLY satisfying!!! The NHT C1's singing nicely, with the Sunfire ably filling in the bottom end. I wonder whether it is the Powernode or the NHT's that require the higher output level to come on song?? Oh well, gotta schedule more weekend time here I guess..... All in all, I think I have a keeper system here for roughly $1200 cost, retail around $1900, all new. If I ever decide to upgrade the bookshelf speakers (Dynaudio?, Kef?, Monitor Audio?, Linn?) I’ll update ... |