Has anyone compared the Nuforce Ref 8 or 9s with the new Bel Canto S300?
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Dbarger, As long as you have adequate power with the Ref 8s and you're happy with the bass extension, there is probably no reason to upgrade to the Ref 9s. The pair of Ref 8s I have are the 8.02, I believe, and I like them very much. My feeling is that the latest Reference 9s are a little better in the ways that I mentioned above. That said, the 8.02's that I have do not contain all the most recent upgrades of my Ref 9s. So it is very possible and likely that the most recent version of the Ref 8 does compete well with the Ref 9, in the midrange and treble (provided that NuForce is upgrading the latest Ref 8 in the same ways). In my view, bass freaks and those with relatively inefficient speakers (under about 88dB/watt) may be better served by the Ref 9s (this is also dependent on the size of one's room and how loud one likes his music). Since NuForce has extended the bandwidth of the Ref 9s into the treble spectrum, to my ears they sound as fast and detailed as any pair of Ref 8s that I've heard. I believe the bandwidth specs that NuForce currently lists is outdated. Realize too, that the power supply of the Ref 8s is limited by the smaller size of its chassis, i.e., it's likely that a higher capacity power supply wouldn't physically fit inside the compact dimensions of the Ref 8. So right now, the relevant performance-related questions are completely dependent upon the specific version of each amplifier you happen to be comparing and which options (if any) they contain. |
I got a pair of 8's last week, and raised the question with Nuforce about the power difference between the 8's and 9's, and well as any differences in sound. I had felt that there must be some compromises in making switchable inputs, and the extra capacitance in the 9's. I was told if I liked the 8's, to keep them, as many prefer them to the 9's. The 8's are a little faster than the 9's, although obviously both are spectacular in this regard. I would also say that the bass in the 8's is excellent. I mention this only because people are referring to the 9's as an "upgrade", but this is not neccesarily the case. The 8's have seen a few changes also, and I wonder how many people go from an older version of the 8 to a new version of the 9 and attribute this improvement to the higher power, when it may be the updates done to both amps? I personally cannot see needing more power, as I can crank this LOUD and never have it fall apart due to clipping. IMO, that is one of the strengths of these amps, they remain unflustered at high outputs. |
Thanks, Frank. And I couldn't agree with you more regarding your thoughts on the NuForce amps. Along that same line of thinking, I can't help but wonder what the home theater industry will think of these amps once they get wind of them. Hope you have a nice Thanksgiving also. -John timestamp 10:33 pst |
Hi John, I did not feel that your comments were directed at me and didn't take any offense. I see reviewers get slammed here fairly regularly in this forum, so I don't usually take it personally. I appreciate your concern and thank you for considering my feelings. Like you, I believe the NuForce technology has something special to offer and I think audiophiles should be aware of it. One thing I can say for sure, is that to my ears, my systems have never sounded better since I began using the NuForce amplifiers as my reference. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. Frank :) |
Plato, I apologize for my comment above about feeling few reviewers are worth listening to. I know you've been around Agon for years but I did not know that you are a reviewer and that comment was certainly not directed toward you. I actually posted my previous response around midnight last night and I think agon finally turned around and posted it about 9 am this morning. Well after your previous post. So on the surface it may seem that my post was a follow up to your post. It was not. I expressed my feeling about reveiwers in general but nevertheless, my statement was callous and over-generalized and certainly unkind to mention in the presence of a reviewer or perhaps in the presence of anyone for that matter. I appreciate your not responding in kind and your keen insight into the NuForce amps. Please accept my apology. -John timestamped 9:28 pm. |
Mdconnelly, Good question. When I heard my specific Reference 8B amps on the 10T's it was at a friend's home who is a member of the Phoenix A/V club. He has a wonderful setup and a fantastic, custom-built room that is almost perfect for audio, judging from my experience that day. The one area that came off as lacking on the 8B's compared to the owner's modified Bryston 7BST's and the Rowland 201's was that of bass extension -- weight and slam. Both of the higher-powered amps beat the 8B's in that regard. But you also need to put it in the context that the 8B's were being used on relatively inefficent speakers ( 86 or 87 dB/watt, I believe) in a large room and at relatively loud playback levels. Still, the 8Bs acquitted themselves quite well although rated at less than half the power of the other amps on hand. Actually, I couldn't believe how loud the 8Bs played that system while maintaining their composure and ability to make music. In my own system, on the VMPS RM30s, I also find the Reference 8 series a little light in bass extension compared to other amps I have used. Now the Reference 9's have considerably more rms power output capability than the Reference 8's, and they have more instantaneous peak power capability to boot. That said, the 90dB/watt RM30's in my room are much easier for an amp to drive than my friend's 10T system. But, at even modest listening levels, the Reference 8's come off as being somewhat anemic in the lowest bass. There is no denying they are dynamic and extremely articulate in the bass they provide, yet the Reference 9's in my system sound more relaxed at higher average playback levels that the Ref 8s could comfortably manage. Perhaps more importantly, the Reference 9s provide real weight, slam, and extension in the low bass. I found early versions of the Reference 9s not quite up to the midrange/treble performance of my updated Reference 8s, in terms of speed, incisiveness, and hf extension. However, the 9.02 version of the Reference 9 with the double input capacitance (and yellow output caps removed) appears to surpass my Reference 8s in the midrange and treble, and it's a bit more holographic in its soundstaging presentation, as the TAS reviewer noticed. If you own 10t's or any other relatively inefficient speaker, and enjoy healthy bass slam, then there is no question that the Reference 9.02 amps are the way to go. On the other hand, a person who uses monitors, with limited low bass or someone who augments their main speakers with powered subwoofers could be very happy with either the Reference 8s or Ref 9s, I should think. Frank :) |
I have recently received my Reference 9s back from a couple of final mods from NuForce. My amps are the version 9.02 and have extended bass, extended bandwidth, and the gold/copper WBT NextGen RCA inputs. Before this last mod, I also discovered that removing the yellow capacitor across the speaker outputs extended the bass and made the sound more transparent. So mine are without that output capacitor, as well. This is currently the latest version, and can be bought from NuForce with all the upgrades I have. I think part of the reason I like these amps so much is because of the unique super-fast digital power supply that NuForce has developed. It seems to enable high dynamic capability with high speed (to catch the leading edge of musical transients without smearing or blurring them). One poster said he thought the amps sounded more like what he hears live than any other amps he's tried and I agree with that. I use the super-fast VMPS RM30 speakers and can tell you that not all speakers are capable of responding accurately to the speed of the signal that the NuForce amps can deliver. The VMPS ribbon drivers are incredibly quick and detailed and with the latest Reference 9s will provide a near-live listening experience if the recording and the rest of the component chain is up to it. Regarding tonality, as has been noted here, there have been different versions of this amp and different combinations of upgrades that have produced different results in my system. I liked the NextGen Platinum RCA inputs with earlier versions of the amps, but found them too bright for this latest, extended bandwidth version and had them changed to the copper/gold version, which has worked well to provide a natural tonal balance. Another note on tonality is that the NuForce amps are very cable sensitive (just like most amps). They are especially power-cord sensitive and if you find the right combination of interconnects, speaker cables, and power cords, they will provide very natural and transparent sound. The bottom line is that these latest Reference 9s, the 9.02 upgraded version, have taken my system to new heights that I believe would be difficult or impossible for other amps to match. I'll be writing a full review for www.stereotimes.com, shortly. Happy Listening! |
Lacee, I see that you are brand spankin' new to audiogon. Welcome. Your post begs a few questions so if you don't mind answering just one. What equipment, line conditioners, speakers, and cabling were used in the system you heard with the NuForce amps? Contrary to your post, I just received the Dec 2005 issue of The Absolute Sound yesterday. There in the recommended components section I read: "The diminutive Reference 9 monoblocks are sophisticate, analog-modulated Class D amplifiers that sound like sonic giants. First, they offer deeply extended and tightly controlled bass, with excellent pitch definition. Second, they offer open-sounding mids, almost shockingly detailed highs, and explosive dynamics. But the biggest news may be their precise, three-dimensional sounding (which is reminicent, to some degree, of the ASR's world-class soundstaging). Note: These amps are quite sensitive to associated cabling, so choose carefully." -Chris Martens (of The Absolute Sound) review forthcoming. As my 5 year old son would say, "Now that's what I'm talking about!" I'm of the opinion that there are only a handful of reviewers whose opinions are worth listening to. In this case Chris Martens expressed my personal experience pretty much to a tee and hopefully explains more fully my selling my treasured McCormack DNA-2 Rev. A amp and my subsequently becoming a NuForce dealer. -IMO |
I don't know why they lumped us all together. Nor do I have any idea what those new programs are. It has been over 1 month since they announced the change, but no details have come forward. OK.......question for the gang: Should small, "unknown" manufacturers (like us, for example) put in BIG letters on every post that we are manufacturers??? Personally, I am not in favor of that. There are guys who make numerous mindless posts (on other forums) just to get their name and URL in front of as many eyes as possible. But if that alleviates confusion, then perhaps we should here. "I'm all ears." |
Ar t, thats why we have to audition first, before making a decision,here at Agon you can get a good feel about the gear you want to buy,You see? I like the Nuforce Ref9 9.01, it does not mean it will work for everyone.This is only simple common sense, My experience tells me, I should not listen all the time for what I read here, but I use them for reference.Anyone who will recommend and for the wrong motives thats not acceptable of course, thats why we have to be careful, ask more members to confirm it.They are many knowledgeable member here, who can really help. |
My review of the NuForce Reference 9 is now on my site toward the bottom of this page: http://www.GreatHomeTheater.com/studio.html |
Woodburger wrote "compared to my reference tube amp, the NuForce Reference 9s have a much more dynamic sound. Is it better? My experience has been affected by the bloom of tubes. I have to refresh my thinking in terms of dynamics, soundstaging, clarity, bloom/compression, bass and treble extension. The change isn't a familiar sound (yet) since I am so used to the tube effect. BOTH are, to my ear, excellent. But different." Woodburger *Simply put, the Nuforce amplifiers sound more like live music than anything I've ever heard.* If one listens to and uses live music as one's reference, and providing the rest of your system is up to the task, the choice becomes clear. The Nuforce amplifers replaced my reference Classe DR3 class A amplifiers which had fought and, up until recently, quite handily defeated amplifiers of all types and topologies in the cutting edge, revered underground and legendary classic categories. I have spent an inordinant amount of money on audio over the years in order to realize that one doesn't have to. Kerry Kerry Legeard B. A. Sc. P. Eng www.musicfirstdistribution.com Disclaimer!!! I am a Nuforce fan, supporter and Canadian Distributor in order of both chronology and personal importance. |
Ar_t, thanks for your candid contribution. Perhaps we will all need to add a bit more salt to the forum recipe here on Audiogon. While I am completely in favor of manufacturers contributing here, Audiogon's refusal to flag those that obvioulsy MAY have a different agenda than the typical hobyist compromises the very integrity of this forum. Buyer beware! |
I am finding out that the Ref9 9.01 is more like analog sounding,and I am able to play all my bright sounding cd,plus the musicality got better.The decays of the intruments are with extension and air.Its much quicker now, maybe the dealer is right that it needs more, burn in,now I have to try my Plinius again,to confirm what Iam hearing,remember my SA100 it has tube sounding quality.I am having fun listening with the NF. |
Phd I agree with you,there is a big responsibility when posting here,thats why its fun when we are able to help.I am not worried,because when I post, I tried to be as honest as possible.I will email, after one week, to see if there is anymore improvement.Again to all who are interested on any gear,make sure, audition them,and get 30 days trial. |
Hmmm.......not to be exploited by dealers? Someone told me that the purpose of this place was to be a market place, of sorts. And that a presence here was almost mandatory for small firms. The people who run this place changed all of the commercial memberships to normal memberships. No idea why, but they claim that these new "programs can increase your business at Audiogon." So, I guess it is about business. Since there was no mention of that NOT extending to the forums, well, draw your own conclusion(s). Back to the topic at hand............ |
Signoro Wood makes a very good point. Despite what a certain overly vocal member may say, there is a period of adjustment, so to speak, with "digital amps." Some guys can not get the sound of their old amp(s) out of their head. It leaves those of us who make these (and therefore very familiar with their sound) scratching our heads wondering what, if anything, we have done wrong. For those that do get over their old amps, they all swear they will never go back. Still, doesn't mean that this genre is for all folks. |
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Phd, I agree with Woodburger, the NF do have a differrent sound than my Plinius and my Oddyssey Stratos Extreme,I am trying to forget the sound of my amps, otherwise I wont be able to evaluate this NF accurately, or maybe I might end up bias with what I have.I think I will request my dealer to give me more time, so my ears will get acclimated with the new sound. Woodburger very good post. |
I'm pretty sure that one of the things that really muddies the issue is that people get used to whatever sound they've had, and when they try a demo unit at home IT ISN'T what they are used to hearing. I am going through that right now. Different may or may not be better, but it is different and you have to allow for that. Example: compared to my reference tube amp, the NuForce Reference 9s have a much more dynamic sound. Is it better? My experience has been affected by the bloom of tubes. I have to refresh my thinking in terms of dynamics, soundstaging, clarity, bloom/compression, bass and treble extension. The change isn't a familiar sound (yet) since I am so used to the tube effect. BOTH are, to my ear, excellent. But different. Bob Wood http://www.GreatHomeTheater.com http://www.woodsgoods2.blogspot.com |
I know already this amps are not as good as the CJ350, and the DNA500, driving the Andra IIJayctoy, thanks for your kind comment. But he he he he, I think the above statement should include a certain version and model of the amp :). In a few more weeks, we'll have some announcement to make and everyone will know our product roadmap. Every product that we introduced are carefully positioned in a grand scheme ;). Jason from NuForce |
Obviously the Nuforce are not for everyone,some did like them,some did not.In my case I happen to like them, Jason I dont know you, I think you have something special on this amp,one person I know He heard them on the show, and did not like them,what kind a evaluation, is that? In order to know if the amp are good, you should hook them in your system,some are only interested comparing them with their expensive amps,I know already this amps are not as good as the CJ350, and the DNA500, driving the Andra II,but at the end I respect everybody's opinion.We are all created unique. |
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I just hooked them on my Norh 6.9,synthetic marble, the ref 9, are good match with these speakers also, the system is not even warm, the musicality is good, and they sound very impressive.I am hearing something I have not heard before.The piano is just so natural ,its sounds real to me, you can hear the instrument very clear, because the layering is superb. I can tell there is something special with the ref9.Thanks |
Are you kidding, we're just a small company :). We're in no position to be threating. The points I were making related to justifying the (already low) price and product positioning of Ref 8. I don't know what Tvad meant by achieving legitimacy in high end audio market :). We care more about having satisfied customers. Do we have plans to bring out high price and more exotic amps that cost a lot more ? YES. But we're also planning to continue to offer lower price and great sounding products to the average consumer who can't afford to pay a few grand for a system :). Jason from NuForce |
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PHD, The Ref 8 case is made of all aluminium, more expensive that other thick iron or steel case that some people preferred. In the early production, we use bright blue LED that is hard to control the brightness. The latest production has frosted blue LED. Ref 8 is targetting people who appreciate good sound but are not willing to pay the extra. There are a lot of people who prefer that their audio equipment stay out of sight and to them, sound is what they care (may be not what you like). Ref 8 is also frequently used as surround and back channel amps and placed close to the speaker. It is meant to be light and small. Jason from NuForce |
It took NuForce team 2 YEARS to complete the R&D and we have been granted 3 US patents and filed many more. The small team in California worked for long hours without pay for 2 freaking years! And attorney fees cost a fortune. Do you think we're getting rich making a few hundred $ per unit? It is not like we're selling millions of these. Do you think traditional 50 lbs amp cost a lot? Come on, what you're paying for is the weight of the transformer, heavy metal case, R&D and marketing. If you look around in the high end market, how many companies are actually doing original research? With regards to revision, we could have stopped upgrading the current amp, come up with another model, raise the price and people will still line up to buy them. But instead, we stay true to our philosophy of providing better value to our customers. Sure, we're going against a very tranditional mindset here. But for those of you who "complains" about upgrade, don't you notice that your PC, laptop, routers, and many other high tech equipment all have different version numbers depending on when you buy them? Manufacturers like us add different version number so that we can differentiate between one production version versus another, even if there is minor changes. Now about R&D etc. We're not done yet and don't forsee that we'll ever be done :). As we have said, we're constantly doing R&D and if we discover new enhancement, we will decide either to withhold it (for the next model) or release the upgade into the next production. We are very grateful for those of you early adopters who recognized the tremendous value and performance (read the TAS and other reviews) of these amps and supported us. Those early customers will get a price break for more exciting products that we're coming out (such as preamp). Those who want to wait can buy the same great amp next year for perhaps higher price :). Jason from NuForce |
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I would not buy these amps yet. Not because they aren't any good, they obviously are, but they are a work in progress. The Ref 8's went through something like 6 iterations with improvements at every step. The Ref 9 is already up to 9.02 or something like that. The good thing about this though is the designers give the option to upgrade the internal modules to latest version for not much cost, but still... I would wait for them to get it perfected with such a new technology. There is a guy who does level 1 mods on them as well at www.tweakaudio.com ""Some of the things done in the mod include: 1. Remove the LED for clearer sound. 2. Damp various parts for cleaner sound. 3. Install ERS material between power supply and output board. 4. Change input cap to super expensive V-Cap Teflon (maybe world's best cap). We burn in these caps for one week on custom burn-in machine before installing. 5. Change power supply caps to damped nude Blackgates. 6. Change filter cap to hand made copper foil and Teflon tape cap. 7. Change input op amp to better, faster type. 8. Change input jacks to OFC copper types (SoundConnections/Vampire). 9. Change input ground wire to Jena Labs wire. 10. Change output wire to high purity copper Litz Cardas wire. 11. Remove the sound of the binding posts by running the output wires through grommets in the chassis and wrapping the tinned ends of the wire around the outside of the binding posts (effectively giving a wire to spade clamp). 12. etc. "" |
Hi PHD The reason I ask where the halcro sits is My friend in Sydney has complete halcro system with Wilson7 all the famous cables and tweeks shunyata Valhalla Indra AQ Sky Linn Cd12, BC Pl1, shunmooks, harmonic dots,etc.very highly teeek system most people go around to his place thinks thats best system they ever heard or one of the very best. Here comes real revalation Nuforce Ref 9 with latest upgrade has dethrone the dm68 in his system so my question Where does the NF 9 sits? Hmmm very interesting Pat I'm the nuforce distributor for Australia |
Plato, very well said. Mdconnelly, I also own the 10Ts and after recently hearing the NuForce Reference 9 amps in my system, I sold my beloved McCormack DNA-2 Revision A amp. The NuForce weren't night and day better, but they are more refined, revealing, and musical. Surprisingly, they did an excellent job of competing head to head with the phenomenal bass of the 300 wpc into 8ohm DNA-2 Rev. A or should I say 600 wpc into my 10Ts at 4 ohm loads. (fwiw, my preferred listening levels are 92 to 97 db) Phd, you said, "There may be more hype behind these switching mono blocks then they really deserve." To that I say, "then again, perhaps not." You issued a good caution to try before you buy. But that should go without saying regardless of the product or industry. Unsound, these are analog switching amps. Not digital. To see how the NuForce amps rank among some of the better amps TAS is touting these days, I would suggest checking out this very recent review by Chris Martens of the Absolute Sound: http://nuforce.com/reviews/TAS-Ref9.pdf One comment Chris Martens made that I find intriguing was, "The Ref 9s offer a truly extraordinary level of see-through transparency, and as an audiophile friend so aptly put it, Their transparency is real, not a fake artifact caused by brightness." I think that comment said quite a bit and without any fluff. Especially when one considers the other amps he's comparing to. I've not heard the latest and greatest TAS recommended amps as mentioned in the review but until now the DNA-2 Rev. A amp was the overall best I've heard. That includes the Halcros DM68s and DM58 which I've had the pleasure to hear on several occasions. -IMO Disclaimer, at the same time I sold my DNA-2 Rev A amp, I became a dealer for NuForce. |
I've also got a pair of Aerial 10Ts that I've been driving with a Levinson 331 but have been toying with the idea of uping the power since the 10Ts do love power. The McCormack DNA-500 is on my wish list but, of course, it's price tag is a good bit beyond the NuForce 9s. Plato, can you say more about the 9s with your 10Ts and what you're having done to the amps? Are these personal mods or is Nuforce still tweaking the design of the 9s? (i.e. is 'latest version' your version or theirs?). |
In contrast to Drubin's findings, I compared the twice-as-expensive Rowland 201s to the NuForce Reference 8Bs on Aerial 10t speakers and found that I liked the Nuforce much better in the midrange and high frequencies. The ONLY area where I felt the twice-as-powerful Rowlands beat the Nuforce was in bass extension and slam. I thought the Reference 8s sounded more natural and musical than the Rowlands in the critical midrange and highs. I am now (and have been for some time) testing different versions of the NuForce Reference 9 amps. There are a few variables that Nuforce is playing with that have had dramatic effects on the unit's overall performance. I can tell you that the Reference 9 series has a more extended and powerful bottom end than the Reference 8 series. It sounds generally more relaxed and can play at louder average levels. I can also tell you that this particular amp may have the potential to be a state-of-the-art contender, regardless of its price and/or expense of its individual components. As I write this I'm waiting for my amps to return from another (minor but critical) change that may put them into super-amp territory. I have heard versions of the Ref 9s that excelled in one area or another, but I'm hoping this latest version will excell in all areas and fit my paradigm of the ideal amplifier. It's the refinement and culmination of several parts/circuit changes and some fine tuning. Some might even consider it personalization for my particular taste and system requirements. So be it! Will it be every man's cup of tea. Heck no! No amp, no matter how perfect would appeal to everyone because we all have different listening biases and our individual ideals for "perfection". I used to do a lot of audio club demonstrations and came away with the firm opinion that if you put a live band behind a curtain and let them play, at least half the group in attendance wouldn't think it sounded quite right. For some it would be too bright, for others too colored, and still others would think it wasn't colored enough. Let's face it, pleasing ALL audiophiles is something no one component (no matter how fantastic or absolutely accurate) could possibly achieve. |
I get really tired of reading how cheap this stuff is to build, and how easy it is, etc. Do these same people object to $2000 interconnects? Hey, it is just wire and some fancy connectors, right? Can't be that expensive or hard to make. If it is so easy and cheap, why don't we see any of these pseudo-experts making and selling products? Part of the reason is that they will find that designing a Class D amp from scratch is not that trivial. Especially if it has to sound good. I won't even touch on the subject of keeping the EMI down to an acceptable level. |
