Nuforce

Thanks, Frank. And I couldn't agree with you more regarding your thoughts on the NuForce amps.

Along that same line of thinking, I can't help but wonder what the home theater industry will think of these amps once they get wind of them.

Hope you have a nice Thanksgiving also.

-John
timestamp 10:33 pst

Plato, very well said.

Mdconnelly, I also own the 10Ts and after recently hearing the NuForce Reference 9 amps in my system, I sold my beloved McCormack DNA-2 Revision A amp. The NuForce weren't night and day better, but they are more refined, revealing, and musical. Surprisingly, they did an excellent job of competing head to head with the phenomenal bass of the 300 wpc into 8ohm DNA-2 Rev. A or should I say 600 wpc into my 10Ts at 4 ohm loads. (fwiw, my preferred listening levels are 92 to 97 db)

Phd, you said, "There may be more hype behind these switching mono blocks then they really deserve." To that I say, "then again, perhaps not." You issued a good caution to try before you buy. But that should go without saying regardless of the product or industry.

Unsound, these are analog switching amps. Not digital. To see how the NuForce amps rank among some of the better amps TAS is touting these days, I would suggest checking out this very recent review by Chris Martens of the Absolute Sound:

http://nuforce.com/reviews/TAS-Ref9.pdf

One comment Chris Martens made that I find intriguing was,

"The Ref 9s offer a truly extraordinary level of see-through transparency, and as an audiophile friend so aptly put it, “Their transparency is real, not a fake artifact
caused by brightness.”"

I think that comment said quite a bit and without any fluff. Especially when one considers the other amps he's comparing to.

I've not heard the latest and greatest TAS recommended amps as mentioned in the review but until now the DNA-2 Rev. A amp was the overall best I've heard. That includes the Halcros DM68s and DM58 which I've had the pleasure to hear on several occasions.

-IMO
Disclaimer, at the same time I sold my DNA-2 Rev A amp, I became a dealer for NuForce.

Lacee, I see that you are brand spankin' new to audiogon. Welcome.

Your post begs a few questions so if you don't mind answering just one. What equipment, line conditioners, speakers, and cabling were used in the system you heard with the NuForce amps?

Contrary to your post, I just received the Dec 2005 issue of The Absolute Sound yesterday. There in the recommended components section I read:

"The diminutive Reference 9 monoblocks are sophisticate, analog-modulated Class D amplifiers that sound like sonic giants.

First, they offer deeply extended and tightly controlled bass, with excellent pitch definition.

Second, they offer open-sounding mids, almost shockingly detailed highs, and explosive dynamics.

But the biggest news may be their precise, three-dimensional sounding (which is reminicent, to some degree, of the ASR's world-class soundstaging).

Note: These amps are quite sensitive to associated cabling, so choose carefully."

-Chris Martens (of The Absolute Sound) review forthcoming.

As my 5 year old son would say, "Now that's what I'm talking about!"

I'm of the opinion that there are only a handful of reviewers whose opinions are worth listening to.

In this case Chris Martens expressed my personal experience pretty much to a tee and hopefully explains more fully my selling my treasured McCormack DNA-2 Rev. A amp and my subsequently becoming a NuForce dealer.

-IMO

Plato, I apologize for my comment above about feeling few reviewers are worth listening to. I know you've been around Agon for years but I did not know that you are a reviewer and that comment was certainly not directed toward you.

I actually posted my previous response around midnight last night and I think agon finally turned around and posted it about 9 am this morning. Well after your previous post. So on the surface it may seem that my post was a follow up to your post. It was not.

I expressed my feeling about reveiwers in general but nevertheless, my statement was callous and over-generalized and certainly unkind to mention in the presence of a reviewer or perhaps in the presence of anyone for that matter.

I appreciate your not responding in kind and your keen insight into the NuForce amps. Please accept my apology.

-John
timestamped 9:28 pm.

I've received a few inquiries about my previous post above and it would seem that some may have taken my comments regarding mfg'ers attempts at vibration control were directed at the Nuforce amps specifically.

To clarify, my comments about mfg'ers attempts at vibration were NOT directed toward Nuforce products in any way. Near as I can tell, Nuforce attempts to stay away from this area which I think is ideal.

Furthermore, as a Nuforce dealer, it would have been rather unbright of me to offer unsolicited negative comments about a product I sell and of which I am so fond.

Sorry for any confusion.

-IMO

Nice assessment, Plato.

As one who dabbles with performance-oriented racking systems utilizing the resonance energy transfer (aka coupling) methodology, my limited experience tells me that as you said any product's performance can be influenced(sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse) via chassis tweaks.

My take on the chassis tweaks would be to eliminate or minimize the dampening within the chassis and instead tightly couple all internal components to the chassis which in turn should be tightly coupled to the racking system which in turn should be tightly coupled to the sub-flooring system.

Thus providing an expedited exit path for the air-borne vibrations captured instantaneously but which can only dissipate over a period of time (like a reverb).

The more tightly coupled everything is, the more instantaneous the mechanical transfer occurs.

I find it frustrating when mfg’ers of otherwise good performance-oriented equipment make half-assed attempts at internal vibration control and internal line conditioning. First, the consumer is forced to select that mfg’ers choice of methodology (which is often times an inferior methodology) and second, it’s usually through some cheap $5 part like a tiny AC filter or a certain silicon glue or dampening plate and third, there’s usually nothing the consumer can do to rectify the mfg’ers poor choice or futile attempts since the methodolgy is often times so embedded into the product.

So in my opinion that otherwise well-crafted product is now deemed worthless or worth less in my book.

Anyway, that’s my take.

-IMO

Very nice review in Stereotimes.com, Frank.

Guys, guys. I’m surprised at some of your comments here. Especially since some of them appear so irresponsible and irreversibly damaging when in fact you haven’t a clue what Nuforce is doing behind the scenes or what their Marketing strategy might be.

For the record, the new Nuforce Ref 9SE special edition amps cost significantly more than the Ref 9.02 amps. They look the same on the outside but are significantly different inside.

And I’d also like to say that Nuforce has produced an amp whose sonic performance appears to be near impossible to achieve at less than $10k. And if you can’t tell that, then you might want to start looking at your other equipment because you obviously have some shortcomings somewhere.

Tvad, your statements are especially disappointing because as an owner of the APL 3910, you have experienced and/or witnessed many revisions to your ucdp but without apparent protest from you. Was APL giving you the best he could in his in his first revision? Perhaps it was the best he could reasonably and cost effectively do at that time. What about APL’s latest revision? And what about the next revision?

Why would you treat Nuforce and their amps any differently? In fact, Nuforce has received far more accolades regarding their performance than APL has. TAS magazine is indirectly and perhaps even directly competitively comparing these little amps to the ASR Emitter II $35k and other far more costly and acclaimed amps which TAS thinks are the cat’s meow. Well, apparently TAS and perhaps Positive-Feedback also thinks the Nuforce Ref 9.02s are the cat’s meow.

I also own the APL 3910 and thoroughly enjoy its superior performance so I certainly am not attempting to slam APL here because it is a fantastic unit. In fact, I think it’s great that Alex, like Nuforce, is always improving the already superior sonics.

But just because these companies come out with an upgrade does not mean we have to jump on it. And if you feel cheated somehow, get over it. You obviously thought the product was worth the money when you bought it. So it’s only in your own head if you feel cheated that the mfg’er has now improved on it.

The point is, name one manufacturer who is giving you their very best. If you are being honest, you can’t. Simply because you do not know what their best is, nor their motives, nor their marketing strategies.

Nor can anybody fully comprehend the true or imagined compromising the mfg’ers face, nor can we fully understand their resulting interpretation and execution of those true or imagined compromises.

Try this one. Which of us as parents would love to do things differently with regard to raising our firstborn?

In other words, younger parents and younger companies have more opportunity and often times more eagerness to learn and grow. In fact, it is typically the younger parent or company who is more attentive and willing to attempt improvements when confronted with shortcomings and/or new technologies or concepts.

Furthermore, there are plenty of companies who have stopped giving their best. Any company that thinks it has arrived and need not continue to perform R&D and provide new improved product is a dying company. But I don’t see anybody ragging on them.

Nuforce’s methodology of revisioning may not be to your liking and that’s fine. But I’ll put the performance of a Nuforce Ref 9.02 amp up against any you’ve tried or even read about and it may very well do more than hold its own. And from the looks of it, the best is yet to come.

Moreover, we all seem to have become accustomed to Microsoft’s and many other software companies’ many upgrades and revisions. Why don’t you guys go rag on them next time your computer hangs? Truly their products are inferior to anything Nuforce makes.

Yet for some reason some of you think that Nuforce products alone should remain stagnant. And if they do not remain stagnant, they are admitting failure or worse for previous released products. That’s being unreasonable and just plain silly.

To bring things a little closer to home, how many of us have swapped out component after component, cable after cable, or even system after system seeking to improve the sonics? What’s so wrong if a company does that with their own products? Not that I am claiming Nuforce is doing that, but if they were, is that not simply illustrating tremendous enthusiasm and pride-of-ownership knowing that no matter how good they or anybody else may their product is today, they know they can do better and are not going to wait until next year. If they were doing this, where’s the crime? And if they are doing this, at the rate their going, 12 months from now there may not be an amp in the universe that can touch them performance-wise.

As one who grew up in GM country (Michigan) I am quite aware that certain companies actually design product to let the customers unknowingly beta test the product at their expense. I’m thinking at the moment of the 1984 Corvette that msrp’ed for $25k. One year later, owners couldn’t give them away. But even that is a bit speculative on my part and yes some to many have become wary of corporations that practice such things.

To anybody’s knowledge, Nuforce has done no such thing. Nuforce, like APL, has been very accommodating to owners to upgrade to the current revision at little and sometimes no cost except shipping. Try that with some other manufacturers or products in other industries.

I’ve never listened to a NuForce Ref. 8 amp, but as I recall that so-called inferior product received some pretty decent reviews. But I know of others (who know their stuff) who have listened and owned the 8s who actually appreciated its sonic qualities.

Make no mistake about it, the Nuforce amps are serious performers and at very reasonable if not extremely affordable prices. In fact, I’d be surprised if there exists an amp under the $10k price that could go toe-to-toe with these beautiful little guys.

I’ve not had the opportunity to audition the new Ref 9 SEs, but what if per chance they blow away all competition? I fear some of you would be right back here posting your little nasties about how Nuforce is constantly improving their product line.

By your reckless and rather silly reasoning you repeatedly attempt to put Nuforce on the hook and you won’t let them off. But they’ve done something here that is almost revolutionary; uncompromised performance, size, aesthetics, cooling, weight and at an almost unheard of price.

I can only imagine how some you must freak out thinking your mothers must have been cheated knowing they have a half-full box of Tide detergent in the laundry room only to see the new and improved Tide on the TV commercials.

-IMO
Yes, I am a relatively new Nuforce dealer. But I was an owner before I became a dealer. And I became a dealer because I could not afford to buy the company.

Tvad, I think you do potentially err in your presupposition.

You seem to insinuate that other mfg’ers upgrades are for reasons different than Nuforce’s.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps Nuforce is just a bit more honest than other mfg’ers? I’m not saying they are or are not. But did you ever stop to consider this?

For example, I am aware of a component mfg’er whose distributor performed a wholesale sell off of his entire inventory of the pricey component, thus rendering the product worthless in the marketplace.

To salvage the product and perhaps the company, it is my understanding the mfg’er announced a new and improved version of the product but there were supposedly no changes except cosmetic.

The product was salvaged. But the point being is that neither you, I nor anybody else really have any idea why any company truly announces a new revision.

Whether that story is true or not, we’ll never know. But if it is true, there is just one deceptive reason for a mfg’er’s revision.

That is why I think your’s and other’s comments regarding this particular mfg’er are irresponsible, non-sensical, and potentially damaging.

Because you and others pretend you do know the real motivation for Nuforce performing a number of revisions. Shoot, for all we know maybe they don’t even know why. And that is where I think you and others are potentially deceiving the reader into thinking you are in the know. When the fact of the matter is you and others are just as much in the dark as anybody else.

Perhaps it’s your speaking as fact and authoritative rather than guessing or hypothesizing that I find troubling.

-IMO

Plato, Woodburger, Jp1208, and Fiddler. Your common-sense postings are a breath of fresh air and are appreciated.

Who woulda' thunk there'd be such a resistence to these very dynamic and refined sounding little 7 lbs. cool looking and cool running $1250 amplifiers that are being competitively compared to $35k amps by professionals in the industry and confirmed by some to many enthusiasts?

And yes, (of course depending on the rest of the system as always) I too would have no problem letting these little guys go toe-to-toe with perhaps any amp out there regardless of cost. I only put the ficticious $10k cap in an earlier post so as not to further incite the crazed resistence.

You are correct, Fiddler, the customer is not always right. Especially when one is not a customer and perhaps never intends to become a customer.

The individual customer can be as right or wrong as anybody but I can certainly see where the collective customer as a whole is always right. This certainly is not the case here.

-IMO

I just received my pair of Nuforce SEs two days ago.

They are really something, even right out of the box with significant improvements within the first 35 hours.

JTKTTA (Just to keep this thread alive)

Denf, after purchasing my first pair of Nuforce amps last September, I immediately sold my beloved McCormack DNA-2 Revision A (an excellent amp), I purchased the Nuforce amps and became a dealer for them. So please take that into consideration as I respond.

Regarding your question about line conditioning benefiting the Nuforce amps? Absolutely! As would any edge-of-the-art component.

In fact, I have 3 Foundation Research LC-100s installed right now. These line conditioners cost $3k each, are worth every penny, and are dedicated (1 per component) and are the best I am aware of (just like the Nuforce amps) and I also recently became a Foundation Research dealer as well. But I've owned Foundation Research line conditioners since 2001 simply because every decent or better system will benefit tremendouly from 'proper' line conditioning.

The Nuforce amps benefit even more than less revealing amps because they are so darn revealing of every tiny nuance where the music really lives. And a tremendously revealing component is indiscriminent about what it reveals, whether it's a musical note or AC noise, or a fault within another component.

So yes, the Nuforce amps will benefit tremendously from proper line conditioning because they offer so much musical information. Proper being the key word here because not amps are created equal nor are all line-conditioners. Most of my customers also own several Foundation Research line conditioners.

I'll be happy to share more detail of the SEs as they burn-in later. They only have about 35 hours on them and I don't expect them to fully come into their own until perhaps after 140 hours. However, I just sold this pair this morning and I only have another day to burn them in further, so I may not realize their full potential for a few more weeks until they are replaced and I start the whole burn-in process all over again.

I am a new dealer but I'm a tweaking enthusiast first and foremost. For these SEs to be better than the Ref 9s right out of the box to me says a lot because the Ref 9s were simply the best amps I've heard to date.

-IMO

Hi, Drubin. Yes, I've stated that my experience concludes that the amplifier is the key to a system's performance whether good or bad.

However, I do not recall ever qualifying that statement with the 'low listening volume' you mentioned above.

My opinion of the amp being the single greatest factor to a system's sonics has not changed. In fact, the Nuforce Ref 9s and now the SEs have only further substantiated that opinion.

Of course if the Nuforce amps were a bad experience, I don't think I would have thought any less about the significance of the amplifier's role. I most likely would have only thought I simply made a bad choice for an inferior product.

Where I have changed my opinion a bit is that my experience also tells me that proper line conditioning and then proper vibration control are right behind the amplifier respectively and are far more critical than I previously thought.

It's probably no coincidence that I also think these three ingredients are also by far the most misunderstood with the most mis-applied methodologies in the industry. That is probably why I prioritize them as 1,2,3. (I think there are a total of 7 ingredients).

But for me these first 3 ingredients are foundational to building a superior system and it is simply impossible to do so without carefully scrutinizing these three.

And the amount of money spent on a component or the number of people adhering to a certain methodology has nothing to do with rectifying a products' shortcomings. Nuforce and Foundation Research product prove that.

Sorry if I sound like an infomercial, but I do have my own experience and convictions and I freely stated these same convictions before I ever thought I'd become a retailer.

-IMO

Thanks, Redkiwi.

For the last 3 or 4 years, I've been quite a stickler for proper line conditioning and have owned what I consider the best line conditioners available in the Foundation Research units. However, the vast improvements of the latest versions have forced me to become even more dogmatic about their rightful place in a system. So much so that I'm convinced the weak link in music reproduction is probably a lack of proper line conditioning on the engineering side.

Now I do differ from your statement about a component mfg'er doing all they can to address line conditioning and/or vibration control.

To me that would be a bad thing. I believe I stated earlier in this thread that the best thing a mfg'er could do regarding these two ingredients is stay neutral.

That's because there are multiple methodologies to select from and multiple ways to execute. If a mfg'er chooses an inferior methodology, then that product becomes not worthless but worth less to me.

And just because a mfg'er knows how to build an amp or a cd player does not mean they inherently know the first thing about proper line conditioning or vibration control.

I'm certainly not saying I'm an expert in these areas, but I do know that there are different methodologies and they most always clash rather than compliment. And I'd hate to have others make those decisions for me.

BTW, would you be too upset if I changed the name of my company from Dynamic Contrasts to Redkiwi? It would be strictly for martketing purposes. :)

-John

It's always nice when a reviewer backs up one's own thoughts. Here is a just released review from 6moons.com
on the Nuforce SEs.

http://6moons.com/audioreviews/nuforce3/9se.html

Note the concluding paragraphs.

-John

Jp1208, you bring up some good points about burn-in. I wouldn't worry too much about it though. I just installed my second pair of SEs this afternoon and again right out of the box they are easily superior to the Ref 9.02 Premiums.

Considering how good the Ref 9.02 Premiums are, then any further improvements from burn-in over the ensuing weeks is simply icing on an already scrumptious cake. (did I just say that?)

Besides, in my book the SEs are already are at the top. In fact, as positive as the brand new 6moons review is I think the review more accurately depicts the Rev. 9.02's performance than the SEs. But he wrote a good review anyway.

-IMO

Mmakshak and Jp1208, as you know I too am very impressed with the Speltz cables and consider them potentially a best buy of this century in the audio industry.

Since the Speltz made my old pair of $3500 ics sound veiled in the highs and bloated in the bass, I suppose I could say a pair of Speltz Anti-ICs are worth at least 35 times their sale price.

However, there are a few even better performing scs and ics that are still quite reasonably priced.

For example the Audio Tekne ics and scs provided me a significant improvement over the Speltz' cables including a nice doze of musicality. Considering the outrageous prices of some cabling, the Audio Teknes which are one of the very best I've heard to date, should also be considered a tremendous bargain. Especially when the Tekne's performance appears to be without compromise.

Moreover, the Teknes are a beatiful match with the fabulous Nuforce SEs.

If you should ever try them, keep in mind they will sound like a pair of poorly engineered silver ics for the first 100 or so hours.

-IMO