Nude Turntable Project
Hi Lawrence, Try this Link |
Addendum, the reason I think that Freud probale dreamed in Austrian German is that I was not able to understand the Austrians for the first 3 months . However I am sure that he wrote his teaching about the 'dream interpetation' (Traum deutung) in ordinary German because I was able to read his book. I had an fantastic relation with my parents with no problem of any kind till I learned abou Freud . I was stuned that this guy from Austria knew better than I myself what I thought about my dad and mom. Such is the force of the marker 'Dr' for someone's name not to mention the title Professor. Since Freud I never felt easy at home because of my feeling of quilt. I had no idea of what I was quilty but , you know, an Professor knows everything better. |
Dear Lew, I assume that my legs or footers are 'legitimate' base to carry my nacked or clothed body. I can imagine that in some future time I may need an 'plinth' in the form of a wheelchair. This will , I also assume, make some 'qualitative difference', to use your own argument. BTW I thought that nobody care anymore about Freud. Anyway his dreams were probable in (Austrian) German. |
Dear Nicola, Freud is widely quoted as having said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." If he said it, I don't know whether he said it in Viennese or English, but the meaning is left to the knowledgable listener to divine. A person who had no prior experience of Freud would miss the point entirely. Thus, among us guys, "plinth" means the same thing as "base". The argument is whether those footers constitute a legitimate base or plinth. Those 19th and early 20th century philosophes of whom you are so fond should have been watching more television. Someone in my early and mid-life used to remind me that Socrates was forced to drink Hemlock. |
Dear Chris, I learned from Frege not to ask for the meaning of words but to think about the contribution a word makes to the meaning of the sentence in which it is used. The 'context' is one way to think about this question the other is the thought expressed. The meaning of a sentence is the thought expressed. Well the same thought can be expressed in different ways and this imply that we can express the same thought with different words. The fact that the science is universal pressupose recognition of the same thoughts in different languages. To be able to judge if some thought is true one of course need to understand the thought first. Considering the universal succes of science this probable means that there are no problems with understanding. So no wonder that 'new thoughts' in science are welcome no matter from which country or languge they come. Regards, |
I am sure you are aware Nikola of the different meanings for the word nacked ? |
Addendum, Remarks about someone's theory without any specification is of course weak. Well, dear Lew ,in your previous post you stated: 'there is qualitative difference between a real plinth (sic!) and ...just footers'. Considering that 'plinth=base' those 'footers' are neither of both and must be some objects of the 'third kind'. If there is difference than logicaly they can't be 'the same'. Not even qua 'meaning' (alias 'synonym') So to make your point you are forced to make distinction between 'plinth' (the 'real one')and other possible 'things' on which a TT can be put as base. But because my English is not adequate you must be right qua English . Regards, |
Dear Lew, I am sorry for you but I already mentioned Quine for 'çheckup':'The problem of meaning in linguistics' ( From a logical point of view). The identity relation between meanings make no sense as in your 'plinth=base'. Semantics and dictionary are different animals. Besides I also mentioned J.Carr who is, as far as I know, American and supposed to 'know' his English. He writes 'plinth' with quotation marks because the meaning of this word is not as 'clear' as one assume. If he thought that 'base=plinth' he would not state that in Japanese there is no word for 'plinth'. Dover's 'Emperors clothes' are more to my liking in the 'nacked' context than your 'theories' about the ' nude project'. Regards, |
IMO, the Onedof turntable was designed around a novel idea for a bearing. The designer seems to know very little else about turntable design. Thus I think he is entitled to his opinion but that it is not much more relevant than that of any other moderately knowledgeable person. Sorry. There are ways to couple the bearing and tonearm effectively. I do agree that the goal is a tricky one. In the process, you probably don't want to introduce tt motor vibrations. Nicola, I know you are having a good time with your philosophical meanderings, but really, base = plinth, in English. It's that simple. |
My turntable (JVC TT101) came with a plinth as a QL-10. Now it has no plinth so however you want to parse the language a large support was removed and now the TT sits on its tin-can of a base on cones. So I believe it is plinthless - nude or not. I am surprised Henry's phono pre blew rather than the preamp circuits - to me it would take a huge amount of signal from the cartridge to blow the phono side and with Henry's recollection of having it on MM there should have been enough headroom to hold this - otherwise dropping the needle onto a record will make a big enough boom to damage the phono circuit. |
I would think that even if everything is rigidly coupled the vibration will be changed and possibly delayed in time depending on what it is traveling through. The designer of the Onedorf turntable (which uses a separate armpod) said the same thing when I rehearsed for him this (Lewm's) argument in favor of rigid coupling. Basically, as you say, the wildly differing shapes and materials of the tt motor and tonearm will prevent 'vibrating in harmony'. |
Lew, I agree that in theory if tonearm and platter are subject to the exact same vibrations then the stylus should not pick them up. In practice I don't see how it is possible. Vibration has to take a different path and go through different materials to reach different locations on a turntable. I would think that even if everything is rigidly coupled the vibration will be changed and possibly delayed in time depending on what it is traveling through. Is it even possible to design a turntable that would vibrate the same at the cartridge and at the platter at the same amplitude and phase from an outside stimulus? |
Dear Lew, First of all glad to see that you are well and even more so to see your contributions again. There are two competing theories of truth. One is the 'referential' the other based on 'meaning'. Say 'bachelor' means the same as 'unmarried man' or 'plinth' means the same as 'base'. This one is also called 'analityc'. The problem however is that we need the reference to the reality: there is no truth inside the language. Both are combined in Tarski's theory of truth which is based on quantification and conditions. Say: 'some man are young and bold'. 'Some' is an quantifier while 'young' and 'bold' are conditions which some persons need to satisfy in order to make such statements true. Even persons who have never heard about whatever theory of truth are obviously able to say: 'I know 3 of such persons'. This means that they understand what 'young' and 'bold' means but also that there are such persons in reality which they are able to recognise. In your 'meanings theory' no Japanese will be able to recognise any 'plinth' while we in the West would have no idea what 'base' is refering to. As a scientist you are supposed to believe in the 'universal truth'. The 'synonym' approach will not do as you can check by Quine or may conclude from my explanation. Regards, |
Dear Nicola, I do think there is a qualitative difference between a real plinth (including the 3-legged skeletal one described by Henry) and using just footers of one kind or another under the bottom of the chassis proper (which by the way was never intended to support the weight of the entire object). I guess you know as well that "base" is a synonym for "plinth" in English. |
The 'nacked truth' seems to be that there is no such a thing as a 'nacked TT'. The most of those we are talking about are made in Japan, while J.Carr explained that there is no equivalent in Japanese for 'our' expression 'plinth'. They use the expression 'base' instead so whatever one put under his 'nacked TT' is obviously a 'base'. Raul's claim to be the first who discovered the 'nacked truth' mentioned even 3 of those 'pneumatic' AT footers with obvious convinction that the expression 'plinth' has a very clear denotation while those huge pneumatic footers on which both his Denon's were 'footed' should be seen as a totally different animal. I am known as very fond of semantics but this 'subject' is actually about the relation between the language and the so called 'reality'. Besides without the notion of an 'base' one get confused regarding what is 'above' and what 'below' so some of us even used the copper mat to put not 'obove' the platter but under the 'nacked TT' with some strange results. Regards, |
Henry, I see that you already started a separate thread to discuss the problem. Sorry for asking you to repeat yourself here. I will read what has already been asked and answered on the other thread. Almarg is a very knowledgeable and thoughtful guy, as are others who have responded on the other thread. |
Question: "I placed the 420STR on the record and hit the 'mute' and that's when an almighty noise erupted." Is this step #5? You just placed the 420STR on the LP and then un-muted? I presume the tt was activated, platter was turning. Yes? Can you characterize the crescendo of "noise"? Was it low frequency, high frequency, etc? Was it like what one hears at, say, a rock concert where the sound man is trying to adjust the mike and one can get that obvious microphone feedback between the bass player's speaker and the microphone, a "screech"? Since your unit is already being repaired, I suppose all this is moot, but it might be a good idea to try to hash it out so the problem does not repeat itself, I guess. |
Hi Lew, I agree.....speakers are normally the first thing to 'blow' with a sudden violent volume? I've had it happen to me and lost not only the tweeters....but also the midrange drivers! Because of the shock factor.....I'm a little confused about the exact sequence of events but because I was testing this 'feedback' loop with various different turntable supports (including rubber sponge etc)....I will describe the methods I followed:- 1. Turntable motor is not switched on 2. Preamp volume control is turned down 3. Mute button is 'on' 4. Acutex 420STR cartridge is placed on the record 5. Mute button is switched 'off' 6. Volume control is gently turned up until low volume of 'feedback' just begins 7. Without touching the volume again....the feedback increases itself until I hastily turn it down and engage 'mute' Now I had the MM gain input selected....not MC....and had the volume turned down as I described. Then I supported the copper Cu180 'plate' on spikes on the shelf and placed the Victor directly on the Cu180. I placed the 420STR on the record and hit the 'mute' and that's when an almighty noise erupted. It was a couple of seconds before I could hit the 'mute' to stop the noise. Now here's where my memory seems confused? I thought I repeated the testing of this feedback with the Victor on the Cu180 and the feedback loop at a lower volume whereupon I then returned the Victor to its original spiked support and then switched phono inputs to the Raven AC. It was then that I had no sound from the phono stage. I reconnected a tonearm from the Victor and confirmed no sound and tried it with my headphones as well. All other preamp inputs (tuner, CD, tape, AUX) were fine. Perhaps the fact that the 420STR is like a giant antenna (according to Chris and the Professor Timeltel).......the hunk of copper under the Victor, induced the feedback at a much lower volume level than otherwise? |
Lewm, My take from his description is that he unmuted the preamp when MC was selected with the volume up and a MM installed - hence this probably blew the phono stage. Now the feedback he referred to in the other thread could be any of physical, acoustic or electrical. We dont have enough info as you say. Physical - just put the TT on a rubber sponge and see if it changes the level of feedback, if so this suggests physical. Swap the TT's around and recheck. Electrical - could be earthing related or could be adverse reaction from combo of cartridge & 2.5 metres of Cardas litz, ie tuned circuit from those cartridges and cabling is upsetting the phono stage. |
"It is now possible for me to design a circular aluminium frame cut and welded out of 10mm thick flats into which I can just 'drop' the Victor." Be careful, Henry, that's what some of us call "a plinth". If you want to take the time to describe in greater detail the events surrounding your disaster, perhaps I can help. I have quite a bit of DIY experience. From what you wrote, I don't have a clear idea. Was the Cu180 placed UNDER the TT101 prior to the event? And what exactly was the "event"? A burst of very high level signal is a danger to speakers primarily; I would not expect it to damage a phono stage or other electronic devices. An alternative hypothesis is that something blew in the phono stage, which is what you heard as a burst of loud noise. Nothing to do with acoustic feedback. But I don't know all the facts. |
Thanks Ecir38, It's not your fault.....it's my stupidity. I suspect that Stanwal and others are correct in the placement theory of my Victor in relation to the speaker/subwoofer/corner but I need my preamp back to test it out? A spare phono wouldn't work as the whole preamp with inbuilt phono-stage needs to be sent to the technician. I do have a spare preamp but......whilst in storage....the left channel stopped working so it has also gone to the technician! Additionally.....things have changed in my set-up. I now use fully balanced connections between pre and amps as well as balanced phono cables from all but 2 of my arms. The back-up preamp does not have any balanced inputs or outputs. You win some.......you lose some :-( |
Been out of pocket dealing with the remnants of Isaac. So sorry to hear about your phono stage, hopefully there will be a quick turnaround. I feel bad that it was my idea that caused your problem, for that I apoligize, although it sounds like you didn't attach the disc to the bottom. I could see that feedback would be multiplied by not being so. Maybe a constrained layer attached would have worked? No spare phono? I thought we all had one. |
Dear Halcro: That " circular aluminum frame " you are talking remember me what I did it with my Denons: instead that " circular aluminum frame where drop the Victor " my frames were from natural marble that was seated on the AT pneumatic footers and the Denons goes freely supported by three tiny tiptoes like ( I tested metal and non-metal materials here. ) that goes under the Denon/Victor circular metal top frame ( where comes the the TT controls/switchs. This is a very tiny/thin surface for the tiptoes can stay in equilibrum but is more easy this set up that what we can think. I still have those beautiful frames and maybe in the near future ( waiting for my Victor. ) I could try it again and see what happen. Btw, those frames work as a giant/heavy/non-resonant( 40kg. ) arm board. Well, something a little different but I remember it works very good too. regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hi Banquo, Thanks for your concerns. You're right about there being space to fit Chris' long spikes under the Victor. I feel like an idiot for not seeing that before?! It is now possible for me to design a circular aluminium frame cut and welded out of 10mm thick flats into which I can just 'drop' the Victor. After I get my preamp back with a working phonostage.......that may be my next project. Plenty of scope for rigidity, levelling and isolation in that concept I think? |
Henry, I left open the side vents and around 40 - 50% of the bottom vents. I have monitored the heat on the TT and it is normal. It never gets that hot in my room (central a/c) so there is enough cooling to handle it. As for your feedback blow-out - I look forward to reading the responses before I venture a wild-ass-guess. Gary |
Hey Gary, I am most impressed with your methods for damping the 'cage' of the Victor and I did say that I would try this technique if and when....I had solved the problem of the mysterious 'feedback' I can sometimes induce? Unfortunately......in testing Ecir's suggestion for a 'disc' under the Victor....I used the 1.8Kg Micro Seiki Cu180 platter mat as the 'disc'.....and accidentally 'blew' the phono section of my Halcro DM10 with the 'feedback'!!?? So I discovered that this does not solve my particular problem and.......I will not be able to conduct any further experiments....let alone listen to vinyl.....for some time to come?! :-( A curse on your collective heads I say! |
Hi Halcro: "With the Technics SP10 models (as Chris has shown)..... it is possible (and preferable) to fit custom long tube spikes to the underside of the platter surround itself whereas it is exceedingly difficult to do with the Victors?" I just received my broken victor and I have the spikes that Chris fabricated for the sp10. They are 1in in diameter and they fit perfectly with the victor, right where the screw holes are for mounting it to a plinth. Given that they were a great improvement on the sp10, it might be worth a shot for your victor. No worries, Gary. My suggestion was probably just a solution looking for a problem. If your rack works, then it's probably best to leave well alone. Having said that, the springs are a cheap tweak to try and easily reversible. They do require a good deal of weight to properly load them though. |
I have been experimenting with damping this tin-can for some time now and I believe that with my current approach it is no longer the place where I can wring much improvement. From the lack of anyone saying that they might try it I guess no one sees much benefit in my method. Banquo, I am sorry I came across as dismissive and curt, my bad. What I should have said was that it seemed off topic for me as my point was to address damping the TT directly, not the shelf underneath it. And, although my TT sits on a cast iron book-case that weighs hundreds of lbs and is surrounded by a fairly effective air-borne vibration absorbtion structure I am still trying to improve the quashing of environmental vibrations. In that regard your suggestion was certainly germaine and useful Gary |
Sorry Banquo, I didn't get what you were suggesting? A Minus K stand is the obvious solution to my concerns and I am investigating that possibility? The problem with that for me however.....is that the increased load of the Minus K plus a top plate of slate that I may need.....will simply increase the stresses in the cantilevered shelf which are the cause of the problems in the first place? |
What is the cage made of? I always thought that if I could find one of these tables to play with that it might be a good idea to have a disc cut out of plate, .125" to .250", of the same material that the chosen pod material is to attach to the bottom of the cage. This should fix the flimsy section that the feet are attached too and should help sink any resonance. |
Evidently, I didn't express myself clearly, but let me try again. The springs don't go directly beneath the turntable cage but rather below whatever platform the tt sits on, in my case a sandbox. The weight of the tt + platform results in the spring having a certain frequency at which it moves. My sandbox and tt weighed around 150 lbs and there was certainly no bounciness to the system. I take it no one believes one can turn a non-suspended table to a suspended one by changing the type of platform the tt rests on. Or am I missing something? At any rate, Halcro, you mentioned an issue with low frequencies affecting the tt-101 and I thought this might be worth a shot, since it theoretically at least allows one control over just that. But if one is like Gary and you "don't have any issues that require amelioration" then I'm truly envious :). |
Gary, I'm sure you're right about damping the 'cage' and I intend to do so if....and after....I have eliminated the 'source' of the feedback? Incidentally....I tried the 'bungee cord' treatment to no effect :-( My thoughts are....that even if I dampen the 'cage' successfully WITHOUT treating the cause.....there is still transference of energy which is manifesting itself in some ways? Banquo, I agree with Gary. I don't want a suspended (bouncy) table. With the Victors supported on the outer cage......it is very easy to induce 'movement' if the supports are not executed correctly? And that 'movement' is magnified enormously because of the lever-arm of the metal cover in relation to its connection with the platter. I've experimented with rubber and insulating materials and whilst the bass may seem to improve.....the highs are badly affected? |
Dear Audpulse: Good to hear it. Even that in many ways my Denons are near the Victor designs and I could think that performs " similar " I just bought ( ebay. ) a Victor QL-7 TT ( mint condition. ). I did it not because the TT but because the Victor tonearm ( that I want to try it. ) that happens that in this TT model is the Victor high-end 5045 ( similar to the 7045 . ) that Victor marketed as a separate/stand alone tonearm. The last time I saw a 7045 tonearm was over 750.00 and I paid for the Victor TT/5045 400.00!!!! and that TT comes with a " especial " TT71 version that through its specs/numbers even or surpass the TT101 as is with the S/N ratio that in the QL7 is 78db against the 75db in the TT101. Speed deviation figure is the same as the drift characteristic and in theory use the same platter: http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-QL-7.html This measures does not surprise me because something similar happened in the Denons where the top DP-80 measures 78db and its " little " brother DP-75 has an spec: 80dbs. I think I was and am lucky to found out this Victor combo at that price in mint condition, the seller told me that he thought the unit is new! Years ago, happened something similar: I was looking for a FR FR-64 and suddenly I saw it on ebay as part of a Luxman PD-310 TT that I was unaware how good was it ( Now I know it is very good BD TT. ), that way I bought the FR tonearm I was looking for where I had a high reward through the Luxman TT. I don't know where but I think I have a little amount of that " magic " blended paint that as you I will use it in the QL7. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
