Nude Turntable Project
Halcro: yes, difficult to find but patience pays off. Mine is cosmetically in very fine condition--but there are speed problems. I bought it so I could test your theory about vintage direct drives and 'living dangerously'. That and it was just too cheap to pass up. It was sent directly to Bill Thalmann's hands. I'm confident he can locate and fix the problem. I plan on buying that pigskin mat. Thanks for the advice. My table is the ql10 so I will keep in plinth for a month or so to get accustomed to the sound. I'll try to set up my pod next to the plinth as well but I suspect that I won't have the shelf space. Ultimately, I plan to go nude because that's how I roll (as the kids like to say). It depends though: I might like the plinthed sound? Yes, many comparisons to be made. I'll choose ten tracks and make notes with each different set up to compare differences. The sp10 is sounding pretty darned good these days, so I'll be happily amazed if the Victor gives me something better. |
Ingenious DIY work Aigenga. I too would like to have Halcro's pod, but if I recall he had a friend do the casting, which casting would have otherwise cost mucho dinero (not to mention the difficulty of locating such a person in the first place). We do what we can. Don't spikes couple, as opposed to isolate? I'll be joining the tt101 club very soon. We 3 can compare notes. |
Halcro and Gary: In this thread (here), dgad and dgarretson suggested using springs underneath the platform that supports the tt. The thought was that one could control the frequency at which the platform moves by calculating the load on the spring. Choosing a lower freq outside the audible range will ameliorate your issue, Halcro? I have no idea how to do the calculation but this should be kinderspiel for an architect. I haven't myself tried it, but I did something similar (I believe) when I had my sp10 on spikes resting on a sandbox which was in turn supported by 4 AT 616's (which are just fancy springs?). That set up was a great improvement over what I had before. I was going to buy the springs to test whether they could give me the same results--but for far cheaper than the 616's. McMaster-Carr has a bunch of different springs for different loads and compression rates: here |
Evidently, I didn't express myself clearly, but let me try again. The springs don't go directly beneath the turntable cage but rather below whatever platform the tt sits on, in my case a sandbox. The weight of the tt + platform results in the spring having a certain frequency at which it moves. My sandbox and tt weighed around 150 lbs and there was certainly no bounciness to the system. I take it no one believes one can turn a non-suspended table to a suspended one by changing the type of platform the tt rests on. Or am I missing something? At any rate, Halcro, you mentioned an issue with low frequencies affecting the tt-101 and I thought this might be worth a shot, since it theoretically at least allows one control over just that. But if one is like Gary and you "don't have any issues that require amelioration" then I'm truly envious :). |
Hi Halcro: "With the Technics SP10 models (as Chris has shown)..... it is possible (and preferable) to fit custom long tube spikes to the underside of the platter surround itself whereas it is exceedingly difficult to do with the Victors?" I just received my broken victor and I have the spikes that Chris fabricated for the sp10. They are 1in in diameter and they fit perfectly with the victor, right where the screw holes are for mounting it to a plinth. Given that they were a great improvement on the sp10, it might be worth a shot for your victor. No worries, Gary. My suggestion was probably just a solution looking for a problem. If your rack works, then it's probably best to leave well alone. Having said that, the springs are a cheap tweak to try and easily reversible. They do require a good deal of weight to properly load them though. |
I would think that even if everything is rigidly coupled the vibration will be changed and possibly delayed in time depending on what it is traveling through. The designer of the Onedorf turntable (which uses a separate armpod) said the same thing when I rehearsed for him this (Lewm's) argument in favor of rigid coupling. Basically, as you say, the wildly differing shapes and materials of the tt motor and tonearm will prevent 'vibrating in harmony'. |
Dear victor tt 101 owners: Mine is currently at a shop and I'd like to return the table to its original condition, but unfortunately previous owners seemed to have messed with it. In particular, 1: the bearing seal has been opened even though the manual asserts that it does not require lubrication. Since it has been compromised already, I'm looking to see what kind of lubrication I should use. Evidently, there is a distinction between grease and oil. Should I care? The guy who runs the kenwood l07d site says the best oil for that table is Redline pure synthetic 20 weight racing oil. Anyone care to offer an opinion on this? I literally don't know a single thing about this matter. I see, Aigenga, that you have opened up the bearing casing and used Mobil 1. Was there a reason for that choice? 2. In the service manual, it shows a round 'rubber sheet' (part 45_ that sits below the platter (surrounding the motor casing). Does everyone have that piece? Mine doesn't. If yours has it, can you do me a favor and measure the thickness. I'll try to rig something. Aigenga: you note above that you cut some 3m material to place under the platter (you linked to a pic of it). Did you replace the stock rubber sheet with the 3m? thanks. |
Thanks, Aigenga. I have EAR Isodamp (a 3m product) sheets on the way and I'll be following your lead. I know about those motor washers because one of them evidently 'escaped' and ended up stuck to the rotor, thus causing one of the problems with my turntable. I'm game to try these steel/neoprene washers. Where does one get these things? Regarding the bearing: how did you support the table while accessing the bearing? My platter was riding low so I had to adjust that big screw, but I had a devil of a time handling the turntable with screwdriver in hand. I can't imagine trying to clean the bearing and changing the oil w/o an extra pair of hands. |
believe me, Halcro, the second I read your report I planned on taking off the casing just to see whether there's the difference you assert. It will happen soon, but I just got a new cart and want to play with it first. fyi: my tt also sometimes (but not often) starts at 33.32 or 33.34 before reaching 33.33. I had always thought it was because I clean dust off the record when I put it on and thus exert some modicum of pressure, but perhaps the real explanation is as you suggest. Also, my tt has never fluctuated in speed during play so perhaps your observations are not due to the casing? |
There were no bad parts, just bad connections. I ended up resoldering all the feed thru eyelets, then flipping the board and removing the solder with a sucker, then resoldering them with much less solder. They all look pretty clean now. I know other companies that used the eyelet method had reliability problems. For some reason the solder cracks around the eyelets, probably related to different coefficients of thermal expansion. That's from an email my tech Dave Brown sent me. In a different email, he distinguishes between what he calls 'feed thru eyelet' boards and 'plated thru' ones. The Victor evidently uses the former. I am completely ignorant of the meanings of the 2 terms--am just passing on others' wisdom as I received it. |
fwiw, I tested the cover grounded vs ungrounded and never heard a difference. I just put the ti shield there on a whim, because I had it and said what the hell. I also have cut pieces of it between the motor cover and the platter. Again: what the hell. Your word of caution, Lewm, is duly noted. I'm about 2 weeks in and I've not noticed any adverse effects. Fingers crossed. But the differences I'm hearing don't seem to be the type that would result in future unhappiness. For example, it's not as if I'm getting 'fuller bass' or 'extended highs' or a 'sweeter midrange', all of which can potentially lead to dissatisfaction in the long run. I forgot to mention that pantsing has not changed the start up speed (as Halcro noted on his): mine still very occasionally starts at 33.32. As I noted before, I think it's due, in my case, to using a duster that puts pressure on the record as it gets up to speed. I've not ever noticed it start at 33.32 when I do not dust. |
I cleaned out my bearing as well. For no particular reason other than that Gary made it sound easy--and it was, sort of. My oil was also brown and unsightly. I used Mobil 1 20w-50 motorcycle oil as replacement. One thing to note for those considering doing this is that the screw used to access the bearing is also used to raise and lower the platter. As I found out, the platter needs to be at a particular level to avoid scraping and/or locking. It's not trivial to find the correct level and it's a serious pain to handle the unit and flipping it right side up to check whether one has found the sweet spot. So: I pantsed a la Halcro my Victor a couple of week's back. Before I did so, I listened intently to 3 album sides and then subsequently compared the differences. I changed nothing else. Like Ecir38, I had suspected that the differences Halcro found were due to his new supporting system and not so much to the absence of the metal cover. I'm here to report that my suspicions, at least as they pertain to my Victor, are wholly unfounded. With respect to all 3 album sides I used the changes were the same: the character of the instruments including voice became more nuanced (microdynamics?) and impactful (in terms of scale but not loudness, if that makes sense) than they were. I can better hear the music as a whole. For example, the first movement of Mahler's 9th can sound like a convoluted mess if the musical 'line' is lost. After the pantsing, I could better follow along because certain passages that were relatively obscure suddenly came to life and became 'ready to hand'. Unfortunately for me, my system still cannot reproduce the double bassess accurately--but that's another issue. Ry Cooder's guitar work in 'Into the Purple Valley' has never been as nuanced and transparent. And Paul Desmond's sax in Brubeck's 'Gone with the Wind' has never sounded so right. I am pointing out only the most dramatic cases; there are many more subtle ones. One other difference to note is that everything seems quieter. I don't mean the noise floor has dropped, but rather that I seem to want to turn the volume up nowadays. I think the desire is connected to the decrease in distortions (trademark, Raul) that I was subjected to prior. One potential caveat: I recently changed my headshell leads to Oyaide silver. I had them in during the initial unpantsed audition, but they might not have been fully burned in (if you believe in that sort of thing). I personally don't believe the differences I heard can be accounted for by the leads. fyi: the copper looking thing underneath the victor is a Texas Instruments Shield. I had planned to use it underneath my platter mat but it refused to lay flat--that and I don't currently use anything but a piece of pigskin. Yet another benefit of listening to Halcro. |
Lewm: My table basically went through all the symptoms you describe and then some. My tech reasoned through and tried testing many of the complex explanations. But in the end, we discovered that it was all attributable to bad solder joints on the 'feed thru eyelets'. He resoldered ALL of them. He said he knew of companies that used such type of boards and that they had reliability problems. Since you're handy with a solder gun, I'd try this brute method first before potentially wasting time investigating the subtler possibilities. Aigenga: No worries. The thing is, I did note the number of turns and even marked the spot but when I put it back together the platter was completely locked up. Obviously, I screwed up somewhere--but I believe I know how to count, so it's still unclear to me what happened. I have zero plans on doing that again for the next 30 years. Halcro: I don't have a general problem reproducing bass, but the double basses on that Mahler record, while better after the pantsing, sound far from adequate. I blame my speakers or the lack of subwoofers. Or, for all I know, it's the record itself. I just purchased another better copy of that record so I can test the last possibility soon. fwiw, I don't have anything invested in the new set up except 15 minutes of time (2 to take the cover off and the rest to realign the tonearm and cartridge). The improvement is remarkable. It's along the same trajectory as the improvements I noted when I moved from my sp10 to the victor. |
according to this, it is a problem, Aigenga. I believe Lewm investigated these issues with his Kenwood. Sorry I don't have a smart phone but next time friends come over I'll have them do it. The symptoms of rfi and emi contamination that site articulates are certainly troubling. I don't detect them in my set up, but I suppose along each of the dimensions things could be better--so who knows. As I noted above, I stuck some pieces of TI Shield underneath my subplatter right above the motor cover. Perhaps that is doing me some good? And if I used a heavy platter mat I would use the shield directly beneath it--but the boston audio mat 2 wasn't heavy enough to flatten the piece I cut. I think the mu metal is thinner. |
