Not Another NuForce thread......

Thank you for the info Ggil!!!
AudioOracle, given my prior quotation and the following you wrote:

"The Nuforce Version 2 amplifiers are a true breakthrough, compared with amplifiers which are four times the price the Nuforce in most respects sounds better,
these amplifiers really are very special. I have to agree with JB8312, I would compare the Nuforce with many of the 20k and above amplifiers, in fact I
am actively searching to find an amplifier which really does outperform these little marvels."

I am not sure if your claims of holding 'certain loyalties" have much merit. Declining to reveal the identity of 'leading brand X', does not hide the undeniable fact that you seem to favor NewForce over your other more expensive brands. Nothing wrong with that in my view, except for the self-delusional coyness.

yet, I am positive that there are aspects in brand x that may be desirable over NewForce. If would be helpful to both us and to your manufacturers if you could enlighten us over the relative strengths of New Force and the yet unnamed leading brand X amp.

To Guido,

I am a dealer with certain loyalties to my brands, and not in every circumstance will the Nuforce sound better.

So I don't want to slander my own brands by naming names, but with a little research you could find out what brands I am comparing to.
The best thing if you are skeptical is to hear these amps for yourself, the tide is turning, and many people are starting to realize that Class D can have real magic and are not just technological freaks, but real instruments.

There will always be people who are drawn to the massive metal and sound of some of these conventional class A or Class A/B monster amps, but I am also willing to bet many consumers are going to rethink that Class D can't get me there, line of reasoning.

OK Guido, I'll bite. One of the amps that my little Nuforce Ref. 9 (v1) "behumbled" was the prized darTZeel NHB-108, weighing in at a hefty 65 lbs!

However, we only listened to 3 tracks or so, and as I said previously, synergy is everything with these amps... as I suspect it is with the darTZeel.

And I don't believe, based on such a short listening comparison, one can draw the conclusion that "this sounds better than that." But nonetheless, it was a very fascinating -- even shocking evaluation.

P.S. Your writing is fantastic!!!

Stlrains is right!!!!

You serotonin deficient people are hunting the wrong dog.

My upgrade price is the current new price and the warranty starts over.

Negative for the sake of negative boys and girls.

Stop it.

first off i owned ref 9, then ref 9se, i will be sending them in i a few weeks for V2, now let me see my initial investment is now current with whats sold new today. for cash up front, then some cash a year later, and again for the latest, deferred payment for current technology, IMO a great way of doing business. i am in great anticipation on getting V2 as reviews in positive feedback, stereo times, and others are so positive,
i am sorry that some find upgrading such a bad thing by nuforce but i surly dont see it that way,
i got my P-9 preamp several months ago, this preamp is the real deal, super quite, quite simple, motorized volume, two box design, that throws a super musical performance with the rest of my system. a huge up grade from p-8. but darn i had to buy new with out upgrading p-8, nuforce being the company that keeps there customers first give full retail trade in on p-8 even if you got it for less,
guys and gals how in the name of audio can you complain about nuforce. yes they may be nu on the scene. but i think they are bringing a needed breath of fresh air to the audio world.

I just love the caginess of all these pseudo findings like "competes favorably with amps 4 times its price." And of course, our most audiophillically morbid curiosity having been duly peaked. . . we will be kept hence and forever in the dark. Who are the megagalactic heavies that have been thussly behumbled? What does the ever-so-generic "competes favorably" even mean? And then there is peap show part 2, where a yet unnamed and strangely unmentionable former 'belle'--"one of the most regarded American made solid state amplifiers on the market [. . . costing] $21,000.00"--is almost coquettishly hidden from full public view by a gauzy veil of hints and tantalizing innuendos about her most electrical of aging prowess.
May I suggest that comparative findings should either be made openly, honestly and forthrightly. . . or mercifully not even hinted at all?
Seems to me this is almost like the old drole commercial for CountryCrotch margarine which 'research proves' is invariably so much preferable to the ever unmentionable 'leading brand'. . . of course costing 'up to' 4 times as much.

Just give me a break!

Marty: Your feedback is perhaps double in quantity, but obviously not in quality. They are both 100 percent positive. With 36 transactions, I think I have a pretty good handle on how these things go. You know darn well that stuff that isn't current takes a HUGE hit. It isn't worthless, but it's pretty close. The very first question is always whether it's the latest greatest. If it's not, a lot of people don't want it. Period.

Viridian: Just try selling a piece of audio equipment on Audiogon that isn't current. You'll quickly discover what I'm saying.

Viridian:It makes your amp obsolete -- and worthless in the Audiogon world because it's not the latest greatest. It's a great marketing scheme.

Yeah, whatever. So will someone please tell me how many versions of the NuForce amp there have been -- and in what time span? Also, please get back to me when the NuForce people have been around even half as long as Audio Research. But, hey, enjoy your amps. That's what this hobby is all about.

to Lacee,

your response is quite puzzling. Would you prefer to have a company that offers no upgrade pathways or no evolution?

The fact that Nuforce is offering an evolutionary and revolutionary product which for a reasonable fee keeps on improving is a testament to how good a company they are.

In my 20 years of selling equipment, I can't tell you how many times customers were upset that Mark Levinson or Krell had come up with a new product, which made their current models obsolete, and in most cases there was no upgrade path. Most high end companies come out with new models every four to five years.

You also forget how many revisions ARC came up with for many of their preamp models!

In reality this is only the second generation for the Ref 9 in two years. The 9Se is a different model entirely!

Also after talking with Jason, the V2 board will be very hard to better, so you can be assured that the V2 versions will be current for quite a while, but even if that is not the case, the upgrade costs with Nuforce for an original owner are very reasonable and is testament to the kind of customer support that will make Nuforce a real player in
the industry!

Lacee

Is your glass half full? What in life doesn't chance. Cars are updated every year, TV's just about every week (lol)everything is improved for the better or cheapened to sell more. This is a young company that makes a great product. $800 to upgrade from V1 to V2 is cheap considering. I could live ever happy with my 9SE's they are that good. $800 to upgrade them to even better--- WOW! My glass is always full and running over. Everyone that listens to my system is amazed at the sound. I am not affiliated with the company in any way, I am just a consumer.

Oh but it's OK for brands like Audio Research, Wilson Audio, etc. to bring out "MK II", "MK III", "MK IV" versions and constantly improve THEIR stuff, right? Man! Where do all these vitriolic comments come from anyway? Have either of you (Lacee, 9rw) actually LISTENED to the damn things? What the heck is wrong with a company constantly striving to improve their products? Are you guys still using 486 based PCs at home? ("We'll I'm just gonna wait until the new Vista 'verion 20' comes out, then maybe they'll have gotten it right!") Sheesh. Give it a rest or audition a pair already.

I don't even currently own a pair, but did have the 9SE's for about a year and they were amoung the finest amps (glass, hybrid, or SS) that I've ever heard. And YES, I've owned my fair share of amps over the last 30+ years (well over twenty). I'm currently running a pair of heavily modded Joilda JD3000 mono block tube amps, but with heat, high operating cost, etc. am once again considering another pair of NuForce - ESPECIALLY now that they have an even better V2.

Well I am going to wait for the ref 10v,or better yet the 20v2,by then I will be convinced that they have gotten it right.I sincerely hope they have with the 9v2.

John

I own the Reference 9SE's and have been blow away with the sound. I run them with Dali MS5's and experience ZERO listener fatigue. For me cables and power conditioning seem to be a moot point. This has never been the case with any other amplifier that I have owned. The 9SE's are so clean and clear that I find myself pushing the volume to insane levels. I am in the line to get the upgrade to 9SE V2's. I should be sending mine in, in about two to three weeks. My Cd player is a Modwright 999ES without the clock or new power supply. Everyone that listens agrees the sound is simply awesome. The 9SE's are the best amps that I have heard or owned.
To the person that said "zippy highs" I say huh? That describes most other amps I have heard, not these. I know as I have suffered from "bleeding ears" my entire audio life until I got the BAT 300XSE and now these.
Can't wait for the upgrade!!

Versions - I asked Jason about the market perception (and reality) that NuForce makes revisions weekly. Because I, like you all, don't like to feel I am behind the ball from the get go. Basically, with the V2 came some new "patented" technology and other propritory changes. So, when will the V3 introduced, I asked? I was "told" that NuForce plans to stand on this Version for some time as they beleive, and I agree, that the changes made are so significant that improvment on it will take another major change in technology or the sort.

Yes, I may have bit off more than I should have when I claimed "one of the top 5", but I was (am) so impressed and amazed at the improved preformance that such a statement is not far off. I challange anyone to give a good listen to the 9 SE V2, I strongly suspect that you too will be amazed and find your self thinking and saying things about it performance that you would not have thought before about any amp.

My reviews? Both the Ref 9 SE and the 9 V2 are posted and the Ref 9 SE V2 is a while off...I have some others in line first.

Zing? With the V2 there simply is none.

It all about the V2. As good at the none V2 units are, the V2 is really something else.

John

Stehno: I assume you're a dealer for all of the other products you are recommending. That's fine, but you should mention that up front -- like in your first post on this thread. That's just the ethical thing to do.

To my knowledge, no one has ever accused Cardas cables of being zingy or having an exaggerated high end. And, by the way, my system is not bright at all yet it is highly resolving and highly musical. Also, my amp has a dedicated 20-amp circuit, which is far better than any line conditioning. I've tried probably 10 and while they may help in some areas the tradeoffs were unacceptable to me. I forgot to mention that my amp sits on a Sound Anchor spiked stand.

While the Wadia -- with the SE transport and GNSC extensive damping and isolation -- is fairly immune to vibration, that is one area that I could probably improve upon. I'll check into that with Steve at GNSC. Thanks for reminding me.

Incidentally, with your Legacy speakers (and the Aerials for that matter), which are neither phase- nor time-aligned, more time smear is coming from the speakers than any cable could cause. But I'll bet they sound incredible on highly processed rock 'n' roll recordings played real loud!

I have never heard a non-phase or time-aligned speaker that has as natural a presentation and imaging as speakers that are. You should check some of them out. It's amazing how everything falls into place when a speaker has coherency. Such speakers are ruthlessly revealing of problems with upstream components, even those that are enjoying some almost certainly short-lived popularity.

9rw, yes, I am a Nuforce and Legacy dealer but I'm also an enthusiast. And though the Aerial 10Ts would hold their own against many speakers, the ribbon tweeters and ribbon midranges on the Legacys provide a more complete and refined musical presentation than the Aerial 10Ts and perhaps many other dynamic-driver speakers. Amazing how much more complete horns, vocals, and strings sound. And the 10Ts were never a bad speaker in my opinion.

BTW, you never did expand on your experience about what you heard specifically with the Nuforce amps. In fact, your comment to Ggil almost sounds as though you never auditioned the Nuforce amps. I hope that's not the case.

Nevertheless, based on the system you listed I would like to take a stab at some comments and suggestions as to why I think you may be hearing 'zingy' highs in your own system.

Speaker Cables and Interconnects
I would recommend auditioning other ics and scs. I've never heard the Cardas in my own system but I've heard them in others and I've heard what others have compared them to and based on that information I would not hesitate to audition other ics. Seven years ago, I owned both the AZ Satori (shotgun bi-wire) and Harmonic Technology Pro-9 speaker cables (both engineered by Robert Lee of AZ). In my experience the Harmonic Technology Pro 9s and AZ Satoris were loaded with time-smear as are many cables. But that only became evident when I replaced them with the similarly-priced Audience Au24 speaker cables. Even better cables are the Paul Speltz Anti-cables and Anti-ics, Balanced Power Technology, and Audio Tekne cables. But the Audio Tekne scs and ics are far better than any of these and are almost identical in price. I still am not aware of a better ic or sc. Installing any one of these other cables could easily minimize the so-called zingy highs that you claim to hear while also providing much greater bass definition and a far more musical and pristine presentation.

Line Conditioning
I've heard good things about the Audio Magic lc, but it sounds like you have no line-conditioning for your other components. This is a big and obvious area of concern and could make any revealing component sound weird in the highs. Any component that is not receiving proper line-conditioning is passing much AC noise into the presentation. One of the most obvious side affects of improper or no line conditioning is negative sibilance and the affects can easily be interpreted as zingy highs, fatiguing, etc..

Vibration Management
To the best of my knowledge there's near zero if not zero performance gains in the Target rack and perhaps just a bit more performance with the BDR cones. In either case if either one of these items has no performance value, then the other item will not be able to perform either because they must work together. This area of vibration mgmt may not seem significant at the moment but properly addressing vibrations can bring by far the greatest performance gains you may ever hear. If you've ever been in your car at a stoplight with some kid blasting his subwoofer two cars behind wreaking havoc on your car in the outdoors, you can begin to get an understanding of the absolute havoc caused by vibrations trapped inside your components in a closed-in room. Obviously Robert Harley (editor of The Absolute Sound) is not aware of this fact, otherwise he would never have admitted to auditioning the lightweight Nuforce amps by placing them on the carpet as he claimed in an issue about 9 months ago in TAS where they systematically tried to pooh-pooh all Class D technology in general and essentially retracted their Nuforce amp the Amp of the Year award. Still Harley said that he enjoyed the Nuforce amps. But when Jonathan Valin claimed that all the Class D amps just sounded weird in the highs makes me think perhaps he had his digital amps hanging from a chandelier. At the very least you could audition Star Sound's Audio Points. This may only get you about 5 or 10% gain simply because of the rack you are using. But that's still a pretty good and inexpensive improvement and would help minimize the so-called zingy highs you claim to hear. To realize more benefits, you would have to replace your rack with a performance-oriented one.

In summary, any one of these deficiencies will make any truly revealing component sound fatiguing, 'zingy', hyper-detailed, etc. I can all but guarantee that if you or anybody else (including TAS) claims that weird things are happening in the high frequencies with the Nuforce amps in place, it's simply not the amps. Rather for the first time deficiencies within the system may be exposed because of the extremely revealing Nuforce amps.

Bottom line is a truly revealing component is not so common in high-end audio. And when such a component does come along its revealing beauty for what it does with music also becomes its own worst enemy simply because a truly revealing component must be indiscriminate about what it's revealing. Whether it's musical information, time-smear, AC noise, or trapped resonance energy.

But then again, it's all too common to shoot the messenger.

-IMO

I know a friend that sold his Pass Labs x250.5 in favour of the NuForce Reference 9.02 SE

Ggil: I may do that audition some day, but unless the NuForce is better than the Pass X350, I'll keep my ARC. Also -- and I'm sure you're aware of this -- the VT100MII and MKIII don't sound all that much alike. I've owned all three versions. Regardless, I'm glad you're enjoying your system with the 4-Jrs. They're incredible for the money.

9rw: My system consists of the an APL Denon 3910 with all the latest upgrades run directly to a pair of Nuforce Ref 9s (recently upgraded to V2) and Von Schweikert VR4jrs. I used to use the Audio Research VT100MkII until I auditioned the unassuming pair of Nuforce Ref 9s (V1). It was no contest!

A local Nuforce dealer (who is also a friend of mine), another friend who is a member of our local audio society and myself did an A/B comparison in my system between the Nuforce and the Audio Research that I had been so happy with for several years. The little Nuforce amps absolutely humiliated my beloved Audio Research VT100MKII. We were all was dumbfounded by what we heard. I purchased the pair right on the spot.

I have since listened to A/B comparisons of my little Nuforce amps with other much higher priced solid state amp and the Nuforce beat them hands down!

I would recommend at the very least, auditioning a pair of the Nuforce. In my experience they mate very well with Von Schweikert speakers. If my recollection is correct, Albert voiced the VR-4 speakers with Class-D amps, I believe they may have been Spectrons. This may account for why the Nuforce sounds so good mated with the VS speakers.

I will say, however, that I have heard my Nuforce paired with other electronics and speakers that resulted in less than stellar sound. System synergy plays a HUGE role, particularly with these amps.

Stehno: You're still a NuForce dealer, aren't you? I'd imagine that your Legacy speakers are less fatiguing in the high end than those Aerial 10Ts that you used to consider a reference. I'd say they're a whole lot more coherent, too. But perhaps that's your preference. No problem with that.

My system? It's a GNSC-modified Wadia 861se (Reference mod), an Audio Research VT100MKIII and Von Schweikert VR-4Srs. I also have a REL Stadium III and a pair of Dunlavy SC-IIs that I pull out of the closet now and then and am amazed at the brilliance of John Dunlavy . Hard to beat those speakers for the money. My cables are Cardas Neutral Reference (XLR interconnects) and Acoustic Zen Satori (shotgun bi-wire). I use a Kimber Palladian PK-10 on the Wadia with an Audio Magic power conditioner. The Wadia is on a spiked Target stand and sits on Black Diamond cones.

So how many versions of the NuForce amps are there by now? I've lost count. And, by the way, are you now a Legacy dealer, too?

there are alot of amplifiers that sound incredible for $5000.
if you take into account the used market, that becomes "a whole lot of amplifiers". as for $20k and above, that usually (okay, they could be hand-built of course) buys you more watts and/or more current into often-times non-existent loads. a pass aleph-3 (30W/ch) will knock most people's socks off for $1000. for $2000 (please correct me if i'm a bit off here), so will a used VTL ST-150. talk about flavor of the month. i've owned some embarrassingly expensive amps, and they made ME (just me) very happy. i've also enjoyed listening to an $1800 Sonus Faber Musica which will more than do justice to SF-Guarneri speakers. i also trust jb8312's ears when he says he loves the sound coming from his present system. i just wish he hadn't used the expression "one of the top 5". stereophile once exclaimed on the COVER that HALCRO-58'S were the best amplifier in the world(?!) yeah, and Motor Trend contends that a model XYZ ferrari goes 5mph faster than a model ZYX porsche... who cares?...

JB

What happened to your review in PF, I was looking forward to it?

The V2 versions provided me about 30% improvement over the Special Edition amps. Arbitrarily speaking of course.

But 9rw brings up a very good point. A truly revealing componenent absolutely must be indiscriminate about what it reveals, whether it's musical information, time smear from the ics and scs, grunge from improper or no line conditioners, or perhaps improper vibration management and/or a just a crappy cdp.

Sadly, as 9rw shared in his experience, most of us know least one or more just like him with systems that exemplify one or more of these deficiencies that often times lead the less informed to think the zingy highs or fatiguing sound must be due to the Nuforce amp or whatever other revealing and potentially musical component may be under scrutiny.

9rw, in your own words would you care to describe the zingy highs you heard? Also, please list the components in your system including line conditioners and whichever vibration methodology chosen, and associated products you are using.

Surely, amongst those here one or more of us should be help you get your system on right track. That's what I like about this forum.

-IMO

I am a new force dealer. I also sell one of the most regarded American made solid state amplifiers on the market, this particular amplifier costs $21,000.00 is hand made, runs class A/B and is a 300 watt power house, this amplifier line is beloved by Harry Person and the staff of the Absolute Sound. I also sell a very well respected line of Class A solid state amplifiers as well which are imported and are also well regarded.

I was a new force sceptic, I started with the original Nuforce Model 9 which I liked but honestly I didn't love.

Then the Mike Silverton review of the Se version came out where he compared and bought the 9Se over the huge class A Levinson 33H! At that point my curiosity was piqued so I bought a pair. The 9Se were much better sounding they had a liquid midrange plus the same speed and transparency and bass punch.

I then decided to show the Nuforce amplifiers at the HE 2007 show. Nuforce was excited to be one of our show partners as they had just released the V2 versions and wanted to show them off.

Long story short we produced some very, very, good sound. Many HE 2007 show goers said we had some of the best sound at the show, and our entire room cost half to a third of the price other guys rooms!

The Nuforce Version 2 amplifiers are a true breakthrough, compared with amplifiers which are four times the price the Nuforce in most respects sounds better, these amplifiers really are very special. I have to agree with JB8312, I would compare the Nuforce with many of the 20k and above amplifiers, in fact I am actively searching to find an amplifier which really does outperform these little marvels.

By the way, I worked in high ened retail for 20 years before opening my own shop. I have played with most of the top five amplfiers, and I would disagree with the assertion that there are a hundred top five amplifiers.

I would rate the current top tier amp companies in no particular order: Boulder, Vitus haven't heard but by reputation, Plinius, Edge, BAT, Halcro, Sim, Pass and Lamm.

I would add Nuforce to that very honored list, they are that good!

Jb8312: Not so fast. Next month there will be an 9 SE V3 version that will surpass the previous version in every category. And in September there will be the 9 SE V4, which will make all other NuForce amps obsolete. Gimme a break already. Oh, and pass the ear plugs to protect my ears from the zingy highs.

i wasnt being funny.... i meant there are 'literally' a hundred world class amps......and they 'all' play with amps costing way,way more.

V - Who rained on your parade??

Viridain - No, I have not heard all amps. But, as a reviewer for positive-feedback.com , I have heard many – I suspect, more so then most audiophiles. I have been to many shows where I heard the "best" and the "flavors of the month" as concluded by the crowd. I certainly heard a large enough sample and all the most highly regarded amps to come to my opinion. And, remember, it is only "my" conclusion and making such a statement was born out of a true desire to spread the work about a remarkable product.

Jaybo - Yes, the "top 5" is fluid - But the real kicker here is that the $5k V2 competes favorably with amps 4 times its price. If it is better, is for you to decide. But, I assure you, it will be close.

My experience mirrors yours. The NuForce 9SE V2 (after living with the original SE for a year or so) is quite an improvement. It's an incredibly detailed, dynamic, and musical sounding amplifier. The bass goes deeper and is even more solid, and the highs are more extended and much smoother than the original. The midrange is musical, very detailed, and has a tube-like, relaxed and sweet sound. I'm definitely getting more out of my recordings. It appears that NuForce has hit a home-run with their V2 amps.

Not to change the topic, but has anyone tried the new P9 preamp, and if so, what are your findings?

i'm sure its a winner, but honestly there are about a hundred top 5 amps 'old and new'