No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
It goes back to cable manufaturars, mostly provide no relevant data! to sales and the users. None will answer this! Whay do you think that you own now the optimal cable to your setup? I think I've figured it out.
Most times when values are minor regarding the other major circuit values, they tend to be ignored. Otherwise, it may complicate a lot the calculations. When it must be meticulously engineered (NASA, military, medical life saving etc’) no short cuts are allowed.
If you would like to dig into it, the path between the amplifier’s power supply back to ground, through the speaker cables and the speaker components, could be represented by a series of resistors (in the speaker there are also non resistive elements, as capacitors and coils). R=R1+R2+R3…+Rn. https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/res_3.html
That would also apply to the cable part as a standalone.
Each piece in that puzzler equals to some R:
· The banana plug contact area with the binding post’s,
· The banana plug itself,
· The short cable between that plug and the 0 AWG cable,
· The two connections: between the banana and the short cable,
· The short cable with the 0 AWG, to be applied in both ends (added twice).
On top, the R should be doubled, as we have two cables per channel: the red and the black.
For some you might need to do a measurement as it might be impossible to calculate.
For some reason, you are now digging into the most minor details of a 0 AWG cable, at a time before this thread, all were good so with a 12-14 AWG cables!
I was not talking about real fuse or about placing one anywhere. It was a hypothetical question "how thin does the connecting wire have to be before it is called a fuse?". It may not be 12-14 AWG, but at what AWG would it be? Now, when I think about it, that is the question that could probably be answered with a calculation. Not by me, but by some reasonably experienced electrical engineer.
"This whole thread is about minimizing the resistance of that loop, so
a fuse will not do well to that."
and
"Some
short and not so thin (I always repeated to use as thick as possible) wires at
the end, won't change the cables resistance by much."
I fully understand what you mean by both statements, but also do notice that you decide to downplay/ignore ("won't change by much") increased resistance on one part while considering the resistance of the other significant. At the same time, both of those resistances cannot be that huge and that is what your "opponents" claim.
1.
"How thin is
that last connecting piece on the 0 AWG wire allowed to be before it can be
considered a fuse?"
The 0 AWG is not for the current. It is for
low resistance to match the relative low resistance of the amp. (DF). Some
short and not so thin (I always repeated to use as thick as possible) wires at
the end, won't change the cables resistance by much. Even a 12-14 AWG is no
fuse. Most speaker cables on the market today are about that thick.
2.
My two cents on fuse in
Audio:
I don't think that on the amp – speaker's path,
a fuse is a good idea. I would rather prefer some sought of electronic protection
in the amp. This whole thread is about minimizing the resistance of that loop, so
a fuse will not do well to that.
That fuse you are talking about, what is its
purpose? To protect the amp from short circuit or to protect the speakers from
a faulty amp.?
Most damage to speakers is caused by using a
low power amp. that might go over derived (volume) to get it play louder. When
that happens the amp. might go into clipping (saturation). That’s a situation
when it runs from positive to negative saturation, causing a very steep transient
(dv/dt) that has a nature of high frequency and high energy. The speaker's
cross over passes it to the tweeter, that in no way can handle it and its very
thin wire coil, fries. A fuse in series with the speaker wire won't protect
your tweeters from that.
Most of my systems since I'm in this hobby,
never had a fuse on the audio path. On the mains supply: yes.
"Those observations were both for the reporter and his spouse that confirmed his impression of grate sound improvement. It’s on this the thread, you can find it and read it."
I read it. In fact I think I read about 95 % of this thread and I hope it will not count against me on judgment day.
Still, my point was only that logic would tell me that thicker wire, as you suggest in all of your responses, conducts better and would measure/calculate better. On the other hand, some would say that measured differences at realistic cable lengths are so small that they could be considered negligible. The only way to determine what happens sonically would be to listen. Which is exactly what you reported in your response above. That would make calculations/measurements marginally useful for anyone interested in sound and not technical lamentations.
Now, why thinness of the wire is such a huge factor while it is not a factor when attached between the thick one and a banana plug is a little confusing. I do not expect that answer. Not from you, not from anyone. I feel that answer may have less to do with electrical properties and more with other characteristics of human nature.
You misunderstood my (fully hypothetical) question and cut it in pieces that lost the original meaning in the process.
"How thin is that last connecting piece on the 0 AWG
wire allowed to be" I'd answered that already before! It should
be as thick as possible, or as thick as the banana plug can get.
The question was, in fact,...
How thin is that last connecting piece on the 0 AWG wire allowed to be before it can be considered a fuse?
Not that I expect anyone to have an answer, or speaker cable to become a fuse, but there is a conceptual similarity in things I mentioned (fuses and thin wire attached to the thick wire).
"If you think of an 8-10
gauge wire as a fuse, you are wrong! The 0 AWG is the fuse in that system…"
You got me on this one. I could have sworn that every fuse I have ever encountered had a filament inside that was thinner than the wires it was placed between. I stand corrected although puzzled by this development in electrical engineering. I will blame the dogma they taught me in elementary school and my lack of keeping up with reality. I am too scared to find out why thicker wire would, in a fuse, burn sooner than the thin one. In my, admittedly mislead, mind I thought the thicker one conducts better and, sort of, more. Not to make it a wall wire thread, although it deserves comparison, but I cannot but think that we should have been putting thinner and thinner wires in the wall if we wanted carefree conduction.
Which might have been the point of all those manufacturers selling hair-thin speaker cables.
Mr. ppc67 This thread is about speaker cables. I would prefer not to open her a discusion on electrical wiring in the walls. Please fell free to open your own thread. Thanks.
I just want to listen to my music. I like what Steve said. And I dont want to spend a ton of cash on cables. I do understand powering my equipment. Mainly the amp. I have 4 double gang boxes on the back wall, each is a 20 amp circuit. So my amp is dedicated to a single circuit. I will eventually use a 12 awg cord to get the full power from the circuit. I do understand one thing about electric, the long you run the thicker the awg. 12/2 is in the wall and going any larger will not get me anymore power. Actually it would be dangerous to go a higher awg off the wall, don't want to heat up the lines in the wall. 20 amp from the breaker is all u will ever get and 12/2 is the feed. 12/2 does have distance limits. Unless u have 10/2 or 8/2 in your walls which no homes have except for dryers, ovens. Or you ran your own wiring. I know we are talking about speaker wire. But I thought I would throw in my electrical experience. My 2 cents.
Single speaker cable sounds way better than two wires (red and black).
Its SNR is phenomenal. It is hard to find those days' speakers and amplifiers
with two binding posts per channel.
Impedance is very important when two separate cables are used. I wonder
if you took the time to read my say about it on this thread.
"No aircraft carrier. Also no one should place his amplifier 1000m from its speaker. That’s common sense. It seems to me that you could use some more of it!"
And you sir, may I suggest that you, in turn, try to develop a bit of a sense of humor? Also, you are totally wrong about the effective doubling of length of speaker wire (nice try!) because you aberrantly believe that the signal goes out and then returns. Where the heck did you get your electrical engineering education and experience? That is total horse hockey. Impedance is impedance is impedance and you are not going to change physics just because you want to.
Mr b4icu Abtenet (batenet) is not from Germany,but not so far away, Scandinavium Sweden.My reason for not having my amplifiers more close to speakers is just cosmetic.The speaker placement is about 7 foot from backwall of my room,and with all electronic equipment more than 10 monoblocks and everything else i had to organize it a bit.
I asked you some very specific questions, and you answered all around
with lots of other things, I didn't ask. I couldn't stop myself from using some
humor regarding your say about Mr. Low. It must be even more hilarious if Mr.
Low is tall…
The cable you mentioned, has no technical values (spec.!) but a bizarre
say about its look…If so far, people were told by the industry to pick their
cables by listening, now Mr. Low (or you) offer a cable for the way it looks. That's
a new low for me.
In your case, rather than get focused with my questions, I would go
spread all around with your answer. Most of it was useless and off subject.
Why?
This is a technical speaker cable thread and not how sales people are serving
a customer, to get their attention, trust and money.
The 1000m resistance is given as the 1m is of a very low value. From
that figure, it can be calculated by dividing it by 1000 and multiplied by the
actual length (number of meters) and also by 2. Any speaker cable of a given
length (2.5m) has a wire that goes to the speaker (red) and one coming back
(black) so it is 5m all together.
No aircraft carrier. Also no one should place his amplifier 1000m from
its speaker. That’s common sense. It seems to me that you could use some more of it!
I sent a question to the amp. maker about the DF. I’m waiting for its answer.
Connecting amplifiers in mono bridge mode is not such a good idea. Even thou your https://www.audioartistry.com/products_dvorak_specs.htm do not specify a spec for impedance as a speaker, only per unit. The bottom value is 3.2 ohm min. at 2.1 kHz.
When a load is driven by a bridge configuration, you gain a 4x power but the load on the amp. is 2x harder. The 3.2 ohm becomes 1.6 ohm!
If you use multiple amplification and mono, with XLR inputs, why 8’ long? Can’t you place the amp’s next to the speakers and get them way shorter? That might save you big time.
From the klass (class) and the AUDI, I assume you are from Germany. Am I right?
For the Q: "How thin is that last connecting piece on the 0 AWG
wire allowed to be" I'd answered that already before! It should
be as thick as possible, or as thick as the banana plug can get.
From your question, and the way of wording, I assume that you are
into getting a fuse between your amp and speakers. If you think of an 8-10
gauge wire as a fuse, you are wrong! The 0 AWG is the fuse in that system…When
that will happened, it will light your room like a Christmas tree. That’s not
only calculated and listened to, but also a visual spectacle. I feel like you got into
something big!
Please be kind to share your "listened to and not calculated"
experience with that event.
For your educated statement "I doubt many would claim that
thicker wire is detrimental to the sound". My answerer is: Not
so many, but all who did try it reported undoubt
that "listened
to the calculated speaker cable" had a significant improvement!
Those observations were both for the reporter and his spouse that confirmed his
impression of grate sound improvement. It's on this the thread, you can find it
and read it.
Why do you think mr Geoffkait i´m the ideal candidate because only of spelling and grammar?Have been in this hobby for more than 35 years,have done construction audi components,tested many things and listened to many differnt configurations.
Big entertainment here,sorry for gramma and spelling!!But i´m very openminded,so going to to try bigger gauge cables just for fun,have order 0 gauge cable 8 feet pure ofc each channel copper to my speakers,have active crossover so start with mid and top to my brigded amplifiers,and wait with bass to here if some improvments.Have Artistry Dvorak speakers and have unknown Interrim 500m amplifiers so DF?
I am not. I am barely a cable buyer. Every quarter of a century or so.
I really doubt there are many "cable professionals" here. b4icu did imply that geoffkait was also "working for someone" in that sense which even I think is far from correct. It may be a lot of windmills perceived here.
I doubt many would claim that thicker wire is detrimental to the sound.
However we look at it, the narrowing of the conductor at the end is the weak spot. Theoretically, it has to be. Practically, maybe negligible. But many might say that for common cable lengths (2-3-4 meters) it is all negligible anyway. So, if we are talking in technical/calculations terms, decreasing the wire gauge must be of some importance. If we are talking about sound quality, it may not be important at all and the only way to find out is to listen to it.
Which makes calculations redundant and those who claimed that cables have to be listened to and not calculated, sort of, right.
How thin is that last connecting piece on the 0 AWG wire allowed to be before it can be considered a fuse? Should I ask that on some fuse thread? People there have some strong opinions about similar filaments' impact on the sound.
Regarding your lead-out termination and the issue of going from 0 awg to a smaller gauge wire - why bother with crimping, soldering, or a transition of any type to a different wire? You could simply strip the insulation from the final 6 to 10 inches of the large wire, and then remove wire material from the perimeter of the bundle until you have the desired lead-out size that can then be covered with heat shrink for isolation and attached to a typical audio connector (banana or spade). This would provide a direct connection from one end of the cable to the other without the need for transitions but still allowing the benefit of the larger 0 awg wire throughout most of the cable run. BTW, Furez offers some copper connectors that have very large wire openings to keep the lead-out as large as possible.
Some of the large-sized (0 awg) wire I am looking at uses multiple bundles of wire such as in the linked example below. If you count bundles, you can easily leave the same number of wire bundles for the lead-out resulting in a consistent lead-out size from cable to cable. Looking at the linked wire picture, it appears one could simply remove the outer wire bundles and use the smaller inner bundles as the lead-out.
Mister b4icu...your snarky and condescending response is weird since I was simply responding to YOUR question, but based on your posts I suppose I really shouldn't be surprised. Bill Low on the other hand was helpful and respectful during our conversation, and the logical and well thought out descriptions of what these cables do and why they do it are succinct and relevant, and proven by their performance in my system.
"Open-minded, ready to accept different views when presented in
a reasonable fashion, willing to improve, not stubborn, not arrogant "my
way or no way", etc. In short, great bright people. Hardly lizards".
I thing different.
Most people on this thread (many silent), are in this hobby from love their
audio hobby. You know that the upgrade bug is very active, from the obvious reason
that all want a better sound. If not now, for sure later. This thread, and
threads like this should serve that well. I would expect them to listen to new
ideas, to try (for a reasonable expense of under $100) and to make up their mind,
if they were skeptic.
For those I called "naggers", they had a different
agenda. They do not love the audio as we do. They love the income from it. This
thread is a serious threat on their income and industry. It is hard to accept
and admit that for so long they had no idea what they are doing, at a time they
were telling the most convincing urban myths and charging for that an arm and a
leg. They are to lose trust and face toward their clients. What can they say to
justify an entire industry that was so ignorant for so long, telling lies and
myths while their cables were far from what they should be.
At this point of the thread, their reaction is well aligned with that behavior
along the rest of this thread.
1.
"How does going
from a thick (0 AWG) cable to the connecting piece (8? 14)?"
Solutions were provided by some who
implemented their DIY solution, so did I with a crimping device and some
soldering. I used 8 AWG.
The ends of such a cable have some
contribution to the total resistance, but it is negligible because
they are very short. That ending has also a physical benefit of strain relief over
the rest of the thick cable.
It was answered by me.
2.
"That most of
you are having the wrong cable connected in your system!", "It
may be true".
As no one ever thought his cable needs to be
calculated, the industry and the sales people made and sale cables of thin wire
with thick urban myth crap, for reasons of par. 1 and costs, and as most that
have an amplifier with better DF than 150 are in this category. As a fact, for
all those, they use and hear only a fraction of their system potential! No matter
what they've told about the 14 AWG cable of how hi end it is and what story it
has to justify a hefty rip off.
3.
My thread is no clutter. I
stand behind my word and those who gave it a try approve it loud and clear. You
are invited to give it a try too. You have more to gain than to lose.
I think you made a few quick statements that are incorrect or, at least partial.
"Till my thread you were thinking it is good only for jump start cables!"
It may be that way, but it did not seem to me. However, inconvenience of very thick cables is a big factor, as reported by a few people who tried it on this thread, including yourself. What good is a perfection when it is hard to implement? I am not saying that in theory or practice the sound will not be "better" but that for many that may be impossible to achieve due to practical constraints. I was hoping to try and then realized it simply would not work for me in the long run (timewise, not wirewise). So, for many, thick wire may really be good only for jump start cables.
"All the sudden, DF is a factor to choose a speaker cable!"
Some posters have disputed the importance of DF earlier in the thread. I have not followed that closely so I am not sure if those are the ones you consider "changing skin" in the meantime but I do remember people trying to argue their view of it. It may not be that DF became important but simply that people took your statements seriously, thought of them, and extended their opinion to you/us. Some might have gotten enlightened along the way. Nothing wrong with that.
"None of you went into the understanding how and why this additional resistance of a cable is effecting your sound."
I am technical-knowledge-challenged but I did ask how does going from a thick (0 AWG) cable to the connecting piece (8? 14?, I forgot but it looked much thinner on the picture) influence the whole cable system. Does it negate, or at least diminish, the benefits of that thick cable that came before it? I would guess, correct me if I am wrong, that it adds resistance so I asked. You might have overlooked my question or I might have overlooked your answer. Either way, someone did think about additional resistance.
"Going back to my say, that most of you are having the wrong cable connected in your system!"
It may be true, but claiming something so sternly about thousands of systems around the world that one has never heard or combinations that one could hardly imagine may not be the best approach. In some church-like environment, maybe, but, in going "against" multiple adults who may posses many skills you are not aware of, it comes across as a bit arrogant. And, easily, silly in its error. Better leave the door open that you are not infallible, either.
"For the naggers, you changed your skin in a second, as a salamander camouflage, even thou nothing really changed in my claim. Is that shows what kind of people you are?"
Open-minded, ready to accept different views when presented in a reasonable fashion, willing to improve, not stubborn, not arrogant "my way or no way", etc. In short, great bright people. Hardly lizards.
"Do you know how much clutter is on the web?"
We all do. This thread is not the only one. It is a fun clutter, though.
1. This is not a formula to provide the gauge out of length and DF.
2. You need to feed the wire gauge till you tune out a close DF to
the amp's DF.
How close is close
enough?
3. This calculator will accept wire gauge only up to 0 AWG. Some
longer cables or higher DF are out of range!
What is the formula when
a 0 AWG at some DF or length doesn't get the results?
4. The speaker's impedance, should not impact the amp's DF. So why
going from 8 Ohms to 4 Ohms changes the calculated DF figure?
Even if this would be the
solution (and it is not), how many cable makers use (or used) such a
calculator, to figure out what is the required cable to your setup? NONE!
Let's look back and see what
we had here:
1. People claimed that the speaker cable should be chosen by
listening and not by calculation. If it comes through Google or the web, than
it is O.k. If I say it…No!
Do you know how much
clutter is on the web? Not all on the web is a holy bible. Even the bible was
written by man.
2. All the sudden, DF is a factor to choose a speaker cable! Till
my thread no one connected between the two?
3. All the sudden a thick cable (4 to 000 AWG or more) seems to be O.k.
Till my thread you were
thinking it is good only for jump start cables!
4. None of you went into the understanding how and why this
additional resistance of a cable is effecting your sound. Or giving it a solid ratio
between a bad cable and a good cable. Till now the difference was told by a
sales man who pushed you the cable he would benefit from most, not the one your
system really needs.
5. Going back to my say, that most of you are having the wrong
cable connected in your system!
6. How many cable manufacturers you know, that offer cables of 4
AWG and thicker? What kind of money do they charge for it?
7. For the naggers, you changed your skin in a second, as a
salamander camouflage, even thou nothing really changed in my claim. Is that
shows what kind of people you are?
According to that calculator, I need 0 AWG to have the final (calculated) damping factor about the same as what amplifier instructions say it is. Not much of a revelation. Didn't we already conclude that it all comes down to 0 AWG? Making the cable 10 (ten) times longer does bring it down some but 15 meters per channel would mean 30 meters between speakers and that must be a rare occasion in real life.
Thanks mitch, secret revealed! Well, what do you know, used the formula and my speaker cables are just a few inches longer than optimum. All done by ear and the formula verifies it.
Below is a link to a not-so-secret calculator that can show how much your speaker cables affect your damping factor. The calculator is at the bottom of the article on damping factor.
I never asked about how you met Mr. Low. Thanks for the sharing,
I meet yesterday a chair.
Please be kind to answer my questions:
1. What is your amplifier? Tube (KT77s) What model and brand?
2. What is the cable length? 10 foot (3m)
3. What is your speaker? Klipsch Heresy III
4. What gauge is the cable he offered you? "Rocket" cable
does not look normal on the outside" This is the most "technical
data" I'd found on the Rocket 33s. The rest is even more BS
than not normal looking! Very common on cable makers who are amazingly
passionate to rip you off.
I would assume that with your Klipsch (I Have the Forte II with the same
efficiency of 99dB/w/m SPL), the tube amp is a good match. The cable, unless it
has some capacitance or inductive properties, any would be fine. For the rest
of your say about Mr. Low, I would rather meet Miss Pamela Anderson. She seems
to me way more "amazingly passionate"!
Mister b4icu...I met the esteemed Mister Low when talking to a sales dude about speaker cables at a nearby audio "salon" (meaning one of the few hifi joints left) and he introduces me to Low who's standing behind me. Low is amazingly passionate about this stuff...cool guy. I use a pair of 10 foot Rocket 33s (the cheapest of that line of cables) per Bill's suggestion (read the stuff on the AQ site about the bi-wire capabilities of these cables for details) from a 12wpc (likely more like 10wpc with the KT77s I prefer) Dennis Had Inspire Firebottle HO (it's a HO...says so right on the front) single ended amp into 99db efficient Klipsch Heresy IIIs. The resulting sound is magnificent.
I see there is a big
understanding
gap you need to overcome.
The resistance of #14 vs. #0 is remaining relative, no matter of length.
It will apply to any length from 1 m to 1 km or 1 cm.
Who cares? I do. You should too.
If we return to DF and assume it is high (500) it would represent an
output resistance of 8/500=0.016 Ohms. (this been repeated many times along this thread).
A #14 wire of 3m long (actually it is 6m) is: 0.01512 Ohms.
That’s as much as the Ro (DF). If so, the actual DF is reduced from 500 to
264. It is half!
That’s why your amplifier investment and you should care.
If you spent $5k on that amplifier, you have just lost 50% of it, due to
that poor #14 cable.
If you would use a #0 cable, you would get most of the DF, or the entire
$5k you invested in that amp.
What that sounds like? Look at the sharing. More will hopefully follow.
Try it yourself instead wasting your time and energy in something you do not
understand. It is kind of $60 away from you. Nothing in audio for $60 will get you such an improvment. Ask Mr. conradnash or Mr. keppertup.
From what I gather a decent 0 AWG welding cable with suitable connectors (correctly attached) will work with 95% of the speaker/amplifier combinations negating the need for a top secret double probation yadda yadda formula.
And...even if say for the sake of argument, someone uses 10m of these wires, then that is:
0.0252 Ohm for 10 m of 14 AWG 0.00093 Ohm for 10 m of 0 AWG
Who cares? You CANNOT hear any sonic differences due to this resistance difference alone! Electrically, this is chasing angels on a pinhead when it comes to an AC audio signal of a few volts, if that.
I'm sorry but this is biggest bag of (Maritime51 please insert here) ever concocted.
"When you get a 0 AWG cable, that has a 0.1% loss due to none purity dos not equals to a 14 AWG that has a resistance of 2.52 Ohms per 1000m, vs. a 0 AWG that has a resistance of 0.093 ohms per 1000m. This ratio is of x27 times or 2,700% (not 0.1%)."
I cannot believe we are having this discussion. This is not real world. Tell me exactly, please, who, in the reality I live in, uses 1000m of speaker wire? An aircraft carrier? If there are audiophiles on such ships, then they are your market. Go get 'em.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
