Well it looks like the not so old Samsung 50 inch plasma is on its last legs. It has a blue vertical band running down the left side and repair folks are telling me it is likely the display panel which cost as much or more than a new TV to repair. So what are you folks liking these days as the best TV for home theater? This is a set up with an oppo 103 and NAD integrated amp and Sonus fabar toy towers. We are looking for a 55 inch set and are wondering if plasma is still the best way to go? As always thanks for any suggestions.
I've seen both the 65" Panny ZT and the 64" Samsung PS64F500 at a local Best Buy.
The Sansung is brighter (I checked to make sure the brightness levels were the same on each TV). They both have exceptional picture quality, clearly better than the LEDs nearby.
If I had a dark room I'd buy the Panny, though it'd be only to get the extra 1" diagonal.
Since my room is pretty bright during the day, I'm going to get the Samsung during the black friday sales. Well, that's my plan anyway...
Audiowoman, I found this album since Christian McBride (Bass) plays on it: Danilo Perez (Piano) "Across The Crystal Sea" (NICE) It turned out to have Cassandra Wilson sing on two tracks, which had Initially SOLD me on her, hence I had to go for your recommendation. (VERY NICE) The Ikea racks will hold much more and for much le$$. The "Black and Blue" will be very cool together!! Reminds me of the Gino Vannelli song title, which is the on only G.V. album I'd actually suggest. "A Pauper In Paradise"
I did test many hdmi cables and there is one wich is superior to all I test. It is not cheap. Maybe even the most expensive one you can buy. But in audio and in picture it is the absolute king: Audioquest Diamond hdmi pure silver. It gives you even more light output. Sounds crazy but after you test it and compared it you understand. Also in definition and in blacks it is f...awesome!
So which screen is the best if money doens't matter?
In my world this is the Samsung 64F8500 plasma. Even over the VT60 and ZT60 from Panasonic.......why?
To all the parts which are there to Judge for a screen it is more complete and more stunning to watch. WHich are these parts?
- wenn it is off the Samsung is superior to look at. The shape and material ( blue steel) of the F8500 is a lot more high quality compared to the cheaper look and material use of the Panasonic ZT60 and VT60.
- white is a lot cleaner and more realistic to the less white of the Pannasonic.
- The image is sharper. The extra light output makes it more easy to see more information.
- the extra light output gives you stunning image even at daylight. Even at maximum sun blacks are still inky black. I never have seen a screens which this dynamic blacks even at daytime.
- the extra light output give an even more 3-d image.
- The extra light output give you the best realistic feeling in watching video what was shot during daytime. This gives me a big smile wenn I am aware how special this is. The Panasonic misses this part and it does more than most people think.
- menu settings are easier to use and more advanged compared to Panasonic there menu
- I was amazed that I like this screen for app and internet use. Panasonic is far away from this level in use.
* Watching tv and video never was this thrilling. For the higher quality it gives it is a bargan for the pleasure it can give. I CAN SAY; I LOVE MY SAMSUNG 64 INCH F8500.
wenn you have 1000 dollar to spend I would go for a Panasonic. It is more complete over the Samsung.
wenn you have 2000-3000 to spend I also would go for the Panasonic.
wenn You have over 3000 dollar to spend I would go for a Samsung.
Wenn You see to all price tags and sizes Panansonic does a better job in the lower price tags compared to Samsung. I am always looking for the best in every price tag. This is why I sell more Panasonic plasma.s. Because I want always want my client to get the best there is for the money the spend.
They both did a great job in improving there plasma's. This is the first year I love Panasonic as I loved it in the past. Blacks are at both inky Black. Colours are realistic and dynamic. They both give a very 3-d image even without glasses. The thing I am most exited for is the motion. Mannnn I try to find flaws in speed but they have done a great job to make it smooth to die for. Another important improvement is the light output. They both improved this part a lot. This makes a big difference, even bigger than I thought. I do not see any reason to buy a led over a plasma anymore. The Samsung F8500 is the strongest screen in the world wenn we look at the light output.( almost at 11000 ansilumen) Many people think that ansilumen is only an advantage in brither rooms. Yes it is an advantage, bur it does even more. It gives the F8500 from Samsung a even more 3-d image. Cause of the extra light on the moving subjects there is more depth. The blacks are already inky black, but the extra light makes the difference in more depth. Wenn you watch the F8500 with video which is shot during daytime you get a much higher realistic feel if you are there in real. This part I do not find in tests, but gives you a big advantage. You also see more definition. Clouds, blue sky's are more realistic of the extra light output. White is maybe the most difficult colour for plasma. Samsung does this better, it is more clean. Panasonic does it a lot better compared to a few years ago.
In the last few months I did a lot of research in the 2013 screens. There is one simple conclusion I can make. Plasma is still superior to LED. Wenn I watch at the best LED screens I am watching to flaws all the time. ONLY PEOPLE WITH LESS KNOWLEDGE ARE CAPABLE OF BUYING A LED SCREEN. So what are these flaws? First the motion is still inferior to Plasma. Even at bluray you see the problems. I get f..irritated wenn i see this. Many peole are f.. blind because they buy them. How stuppid you can be in my world. Colours are far from realistic. I see one positive thing in the best LED screens these days, there is a little depth. But compared to the best Panasonic and Samsung plasma's which can give a 3d image even without glasses it is still inferior. Watch a movie with a led screen and compare it with a plasma. You will understand that the led screen will make you feel if the movie was recorded with a cheep videocamera. Only with a plasma you can watch it with the feeling of a real movie.
Isochronism: Nice to hear from you! I never found the fancy cd racks either, but I bought 6 blue IKEA dvd/cd towers and put them together on one wall. Holds about 900+ cd's and just about full! Of course, they no longer make them in blue, but I think in the next house I'll do a long wall with 6 more black ones in between the blue - kinda cool looking actually and cheap!
Glad you are enjoying Blue LIght Till Dawn - very nice indeed.
Audiowomen, to sidetrack: I just got a copy of one of your reference CDs because of your listing in a thread (what's your reference music) of Cassandra Wilson "Blue Lights 'Til Dawn" (especially tracks 8&9) EXTREMELY NICE!!!!!!
It is the Diamond from Audioquest. I use now three of them. One as a monitor cable to my Samsung PS64F8500, one for my Humax decoder and one for my Bluray player. It is both in vision and sound the best I have seen and heard sofar. Pure silver does bring it to another level.
One day ago I was on the AVS website. There was a discussion about the ZT60/VT60 and F8500. So I thought I will make an account as well. Mannnnnnn I was very popular.....hahahahahaha. I asked people with there expierence in HDMI cables. I said I tested many and there is one which is by far the most convincing. They all believe in calibrate your screen but not in difference between hdmi cables. They did not appriciate my thoughts about cables. I even got banned from the website. And no I did not insult any person. Maybe a website not for persons like me?
This year's contenders for flatpanel shootout included three plasmas and three LED-lit LCD TVs. The models were: •Panasonic TC-P65ZT60 65-inch Plasma HDTV •Samsung PN64F8500 64-inch Plasma HDTV •Panasonic TC-P65VT60 65-inch Plasma HDTV •Sony XBR-65X900A 65-inch LED-lit LCD Ultra HD TV •Panasonic TC-L55WT60 55-inch LED-lit LCD HDTV •Samsung UN55F8000 55-inch LED-lit LCD HDTV
As was the case last year, the plasma TVs outperformed the LED/LCD sets overall, by a fairly wide margin. Even the mighty 4K "Ultra HD" Sony LED TV was bested by the three 1080p plasma sets from Panasonic and Samsung. Of course, we did not view any native 4K content (of which there is currently very little) on the Sony. Doing so would surely have highlighted its strengths in picture detail. But one might have expected its greater resolution and scaling would have given it an edge over the competition even on regular HD material. It turns out many other areas of display performance are more important than the number of pixels, so the Sony finished off around the middle of the pack.
The other important thing what I miss is: sharpness. Samsung is a lot sharper than Panasonic. For me this is a lot more important than the best blacks. Light output is also much more important. The other problem of the Panasonics is the fan noise. Samsung is more silent.
I have to concede and be more practical so with the brighter whites and overall performance, not to mention my current use and experience with my Samsung 7000 Plasma (which is no slouch), I give the nod to the 8500 as well.
Yess I know about this. The F8500 is the first Plasma with a light output of a LED screen. This makes it during daytime a lot more pleasant to watch. This is a very important part. We are not talking only in my house, in most of every person there house. The other thing is sharpness and speed. The Panasonic is a lot better in this part this year, but Samsung is still better in this part as well. Ofcourse with both ( F8500/ZT60) you cannot go wrong.
IME, light output is only more important than black levels in a room where you can not control the ambient light. If that is the issue than LED's are even better as they do not have as a reflective screen surface as a plasma and are capable of even more light output.
Without excellent black levels as well as evenly spaced "shades of gray" a TV has no hope of accurately rendering a color image properly. Kuro's did both of these things better than other plasma's available at the time. Panasonic now owns the Kuro tech and has been integrating it into their plasma's over the last two years.
Many magazines and also internet review forget some very important parts which are more important than the things they test. For example the VT30 had a very irritating low light output. Watching during daytime irritated me very fast. I did not see any test who talked about this big flaw.
- looks; on the wall it looks 3 times more expensive than a zt60. Material and shape are superior over Panasonic ZT60.
- Light output is superior. This part is a lot more important than the best black levels. This gives you much more quality and pleasure in watching tv during daytime. Why magzines and the internet tests do not talk about this.
White is the most difficult colour for plasma. White is a lot better at Samsung plasma.
I still have not seen the New topmodel of the Samsung Plasma. Maybe I will buy one this year. I still use the Samsung PS64D8000. 2 years ago this one was a lot more sharp and had a lot more light output compared to the VT30 of Panasonic. Last year model E8000 had a very low light output. A big mistake of Samsung. The thing I still don't like about the Panasonics is the material they use. It still looks cheep and plastico fantastico. Lastb year the output still was not a lot. This year this is a lot better. Samsung clames to have the best blacks and light output of a screen this year. Could become the new for me....
Bo, I'd be interested in your opinion of the Panny vs. the Sammy once the former is broken in and calibrated and what the major differences are. Thanks for any thoughts.
One day later I have to admit that the Panasonic GT60 is exeptional good. Blacks are f..awesome, was already more fluied than the first day. Colours are greet. Depth is because of the blacks also very good. You must be a big fool to buy a LED screen!!! Screen's with a lot of flaw's!!
Yess it does, and I use a device to calibrate. First we have to wait for this. But that will not solve the output in light issue. Plasma will become more smooth after breaking in. Samsung plasma looks a lot more different than Panasonic Plasma. I prefer Samsung over Panasonic, no doubt about it. Also from this screen I do not like the cheep material on the Plasma. The more expensive Samsung use better and a lot more appealing material Panasonis uses.
Bo, once the TV has been on for I believe it is 200 hours, you should have it professionally calibrated, unless you know how to do this yourself. I watched the guy do it, and could do it myself now. I could not believe the difference this made. But it has to break in first before this can be/should be done.
Today I installed a new Panasonic plasma. GT60, black were stunning and yess they are more dynamic in light over last year. But Samsung is still sharper and there topmodels have more output in light.
I have a Fujitsu plasma that is at least 10 years old and Sony's xbr lcd from 2 years ago. Not too close. Fujitsu plasma is still better in all respects.
Jjrenman, Great link, thank you. It would appear that plasma vs LCD is a little bit like inkjet vs. laser. Laser cannot create shades of gray (or color) so it uses halftoning - pretty much the same as one used in publishing (newspapers magazines etc). Plasma halftones by manipulating time instead of space for black or white dots. To me it would sound really like only 60Hz rate but eyes might see it differently. As I sad before - any new TV would be good for me. I decided on Samsung because it looked better in the store but half of TVs there are set wrong and work much better at home. Perhaps I would like plasma more - who knows. I had older Samsung DLP before and this new LED is much better. Originally I planned for Panasonic but it doesn't have 2 channel digital audio out.
This article mentions at the end silly claims made by sales people and I think they are absolutely right about it. A lot of idiots there in sales (young and old). I think that it is getting worse every year. A while ago I asked for plastic Toslink in Best Buy and they couldn't find anybody in store who knew what it was, until I finally found it myself. The worse is when instead of saying "I don't know" they make up things.
I still think my Panasonic plasma beats anything else other than that Pioneer Kuro that I have ever seen. Nice to hear the Samsungs have improved. However, I think it is still true that Panasonic's customer service is considered FAR better than Samsung. Never had a problem with my Panasonic, though, in almost four years now.
I don't thing that images are "drawn" anymore. Each pixel on the screen of LCD TV has corresponding bit in frame memory buffer and whole frame appears at once.
Correct. I apologize for the over simplification. You are also correct in that there is a conversion that happens when showing a 24fps film on a video screen. The simplest is often called 2:3 pulldown but there are much better versions available.
At this point it seems that we both have a problem with trying to smooth up the image to much. However I believe that happens more with the "psuedo" or an artificially derived higher frame rate, not a display with a very high native frame rate. Again, FWIU, you can turn off any artificially drived higher frame rate NOT a high NATIVE frame rate. Just like there is nothing in a plasma that allows you to turn off their Native 600hz frame rate.
Here's agood article, for those so inclined, on frame rate.
There is only limited number of frames/s in TV transmission. Many stations like FOX or ABC broadcast everything in 60fps 720p. When 24fps movie is broadcasted they just repeat frames. Digital TV set adds (interpolates) additional frames, so if you set it to 240Hz it will add 3 interpolated frames to each "real" frame. It would be even better if TV would send movies in original 24fps because TV would be able to interpolate, especially at 120Hz that is even multiple of 24fps.
I don't thing that images are "drawn" anymore. Each pixel on the screen of LCD TV has corresponding bit in frame memory buffer and whole frame appears at once. Frames itself are very sharp even with 24fps because shutters in film cameras are very fast. The problem is transition between frames that appear to be jittery with fast motion. If you smooth it up too much, tossing in too many interpolated frames, you'll get "soap opera effect". I'm still trying to find optimal setting for movies on my TV - not too fast and not too slow.
There is plasma and there is LCD. Who makes an LED TV?
LED is really an LCD diplay using a LED to backlight the panel instead of a flourescent tube light bulb. Some of the the newer panels add to the confusion by calling them LCD/LED Tv's which although is more accurate is not anyless confusing.
Bob, That is hard to understand - why to stop making something that was the best. On the other hand quality of all TVs improved so much that any choice would be good for me. Sharpness is so high, without any artifacts, that I can see tiny scratches on football players' helmets. Colors seem very accurate and natural to me, while brightness and black levels are amazing (I use only fraction of the brightness). There might be better TVs, according to tests and measurements, but I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Another point is quality of broadcasting. Live sports are often very high quality but movies are pretty bad. Even with just regular DVD quality I can see dramatic difference in sharpness, colors and noise between them. Best are very good (so it is possible) while most of them are less than perfect. Why to even bother with Blu-ray when movie is noisy?
when I set mine to highest rate (240Hz) movies look like video made by home camera (soap opera effect). There is a reason why movie makers still record exactly 24 frames/s while technology allows for much more
Lets not confuse pseudo higher frame rates with native rates, as in if you can turn it off it is not the native frame rate. IME, my comments only apply to native frame rates.
Also, frame rate, in video terms, and frames per secound, in film terms, are not the same thing. Our eyes can not differentiate between individual still images when the frames per secound are above 16fps or so. Although original movies used a lower FPS it was moved up to 24 FPS. Now if a TV would create an entire still image and then presented them it at 24 FPS or more (read still images per secound) this whole discussion would be moot. The problem arises in how TV images are drawn. If you look up close at a very large flat panel that has a low frame rate you will easily notice how the image will start pixelizing or breaking up, when presented with fast motion. The problem is probably more in the scaler circuit than in the frame rate of a LCD/LED TV but either way the higher the frame rate the faster the scaler.
At this point I will restate that some of my customers were unaffected by any break up or blurring of the image while others find it very objectionable. Not all that different from those who say MP3 files sound just fine while others feel there are issues with them.
For the record most of the newer panels use a psuedo higher frame rate which can actually cause as many issues as they solve. It may be what you mean by a soap opera look. I actually had a customer that was very unhappy with his picture until after much exploration we discovered that the video artifacts created by the pseudo higher frame rate was an issue for him. He turned it off and has been a happy camper ever since.
Finally, I will be tickled pink with either choice the OP makes if they are very happy with it. I was just merely mentioning some of the things an informed buyer should check out before they make a decision.
Colour realism; led is not able in giving realism in colours. Like the colour green. Use a pro camera and record gras. Take a look at the gras in real and to a led screen. The difference is soooo big. Even wenn people give me the best led for free I would not use it. The same a depth. Led often almost look 2-dimensional. Led screen's are sold a lot only cause of less knowledge. Brightness per 1cm2 by plasma is bigger compared to led. People often think that led is a lot brighter. Because the get the wrong information. Wenn I tell the differences most choose for plasma. And not because it is my own preference.
Jjrenman, when I set mine to highest rate (240Hz) movies look like video made by home camera (soap opera effect). There is a reason why movie makers still record exactly 24 frames/s while technology allows for much more.
Perhaps I can train my brain over long time but for now fluid motion at 240Hz looks HORRIBLE. Watching one movie in this mode I felt like seeing "behind the scenes" TV program - all magic was gone. I switched back to low rate and the movie came back. It is nice to have it for sports but I'm not sure how much difference 600Hz offers vs 240Hz.
I forgot one important thing: Samsung is a lot more powerfull in ansilumen compared to Panasonic. Pansonic did improve it compared to last year. But Samsung does this still a lot better. There is almost no content in 4k. At this moment it doesn't matter. In the movie theaters it will come quite soon. But before broakcast is in 4 k, we are many years further. Wenn you see in the past, that this is the main reason why new formats go very very slow.
As I have posted previously I believe that Plasma is the best way to go. However if you do want to consider LED I strongly recommend that you make sure that pixelation caused by motion is not bothersome to you. I, as well as about half of my customers notice it easily, to the rest it does not seem to bother them. Find two LED's in the size you are considering that are side by side, one having a 240hz refresh, the other 120hz and check it out for yourself. Some claim that it only makes a difference with sports but I find that there is plenty of high speed motion in action movies that require a higher refresh rate as well.
As far as waiting for newer tech, 4K is sharper, even with current sources as they can upscale the image. However it does not "knock your socks off" like the OLED tech that MAY BE just around the corner in large screen formats.
One thing I miss in europe and like a lot about the US is the honnesty about screen's. In the US there are enough articles that plasma is better. And yesss it is. Oled will become the new standard. But this year you are still better of with plasma. I would go for the new topmodel of Samsung Plasma. I sell both Samsung and Panansonic. Samsung is sharper and is better in white. White is the most difficult colour for plasma. Panasonic has less white colours. This was the main reason why I went to the Samsung side after Panasonic plasma's. I hate the plastic material Panasonic uses. Samsung does this also a lot better with better materials. Tomorrow I have to install a GT60 Plasma of Panasonic.
There is no Samsung LED tv what is able in giving a cinema smooth image. 1,5 year ago I had to teach people who work for Samsung what the difference is between plasma and LED. I explained all the difference in image. For a person who is taught how to Judge a screen. LED IS FOR DUMMIES!!. Plasma is superior in speed, 3d image. There is a lot more depth. LED backlight filter the cinema look of a movie. Movies look if they were taken with cheeep camera's. I showed this tot he people of Samsung. They were amazed, they never noticed it. Many people with less knowledge these days!!!!
I was in similar situation and got a panasonic 60" (GT) plasma from Magnolia to replace my very nice but old yet very well regarded Philips 50" and I could not be happier with it. Panasonic plasmas are great.
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