New Teres Direct Drive Motor Available as Option

An interesting question. Maybe Teres will offer up some info.

I think that Teres uses a mix of oil and poly as the finish. I don't think the o-ring would wear it off, but it may cause a track to become visible after a while. There is not much pressure on the platter from the mylar belts so I wouldn't expect there to be much from this drive. Although it would be concentrated at on spot and not distributed around the edge as with the belts. The cocobolo is really hard, it machines nicely and can be threaded.

I wonder what a little wax around the edge would do?

Johnbrown, contact from the o-ring will cause some wear on the platter, but so do belts and strings. It seems that the amount of wear would be proportional to the size of the contact area. So the amount of wear would probably be about the same as with a narrow belt or a string. But the forces involved here are very small so this is not a big issue.

I have no concerns about the o-ring damaging wood platters. Cocobolo is very hard and is considerably more durable than PVC and would have about the same durability as aluminum. Cocobolo is quite unlike common north American hardwoods. It is one of the few woods that sinks in water and has rigidity and hardness that approaches brass and aluminum. So there is no need to add a contact surface.

Chris

Thanks Doug-

As I said in the first post, knowing the Teres quest for quality, I assume a platter designed for an outboard drive would have a ring of alumininum/pvc/or etc because, at the very least, the drive will take the finish off of the wood. And, eventually, work into the wood itself

I realize this has nothing to do with sonics, but the Teres models are sold not only on their musical merits, but also on their gorgeous looks, so I'm wondering if owners looking to upgrade have any reservations.

Believe me, not trying to rain on a parade-just curious, because if (when) I own a Teres, I want it to look 'as new' for as long as possible.

Johnbrown,

Sorry your very interesting question got lost in the (fascinating) noise floor of that other discussion.

Cocobolo is pretty durable of course. I imagine the O-ring will wear about 100 X faster. I'm certainly not worried about any short term wear or damage during listening tests.

Still, it's a valid question. Even if the wood doesn't wear, any material worn off the O-ring could get deposited in the grain and leave a permanent ring.

How about a strip of metal? A flat black finish would virtually disappear against the cocobolo background. Might even look nice...

This discussion of business/marketing/sales has been truly, um, fascinating, but still no replies to what the 'Verus' option will do the finish of the Teres wood platter. I won't fully repeat my post, but any thoughts and or concerns? Will new owners be applying 'friction' tape to the platter to protect it? Can no one hear my cries of pain and anguish?

Pauly,

Kudos to the 3 Ds and Cello,

"Taking a chance," might be considered to be a badge of honor, unless you have the hours, years, and dollars, AND WILL, to make a mistake by trying something that might make a difference. If proven performance is what you're looking for , check out the Audiogon listings for " The best of everything," on the market yesterday, you can't beat the price.-----The price is BANKABLE.


I spoke with Chris at Teres, thanks Larry, regarding TT isolation and the conversation was beneficial. True gentleman in the audio industry will impart their knowledge without a ulterior motive-- financial.


I've been reading the Icons of Audiogon for a few years and finally decided to couple their TT knowledge and experience with my DIY gene. I've spent enough building a TT, that should be up and running in a month or two, that would have enabled me to purchase a Walker, or the Continuum, the cheap model!!. When it's done, I'll love the way it sounds, after all , half of enjoying music is the mood you're in when the stylus drops. When you couple technology with musical passion, you win, regardless of the price you've paid for the gear.


Being a small business owner in Virginia, with only one competitor 40 times my size, on the California - Mexico border, I realize that value and service is what it takes to survive.

If you rely on, and buy, the tried and true engineering of yesterday, Just buy USED.

Ken

I'd like to get back to the original topic. Since there are no "Primate Reports" to read I guess I'll play along.

I'm sorry. I can't any of this "investment" argument seriously at all! C'mon, we're talking about depreciable consumer goods here! There's no investment. You'd better be spending play money on this stuff or you're going to be in the soup lines later in life. I can just see me taking this idea to my investment dudes. "Hey, guys! I've got this great idea! Audio equipment!" I'm sure I could still go on with my great idea even after they all tell me to take my business elsewhere.

It's o.k., Banker Boy. I'm sure your Oracle is a fine 'table.

Oh! And since we're waggling packages at each other, every time you use the internet, pick up a phone, turn on your t.v., your helping fund my toys. Thanks, Banker Boy!

+++ I was going to mention the hole in Pauly's economics +++

Yep, not having a dealer network does save money. 100% correct. But who do you think pays for R&D? Who pays for the machine tools? Yep, you guessed it … you do.

Sunk costs such as R&D and tooling costs are factored in the price, and low retail prices can be achieved only through economies of scale. The more units that can be moved, the lower the cost assigned to each unit. This is economics, pure and simple.

Besides, you think Oracle still has outstanding liabilities on the Delphi tooling machines? On R&D? I would think zero, no? The overheads on a Delphi is potentially much lower than that on a Teres.

If that sounds far fetched to you, consider a DL103. Dirt cheap with amazing performance. Denon can sell them at this low price via a dealer network because ALL
sunk cost pertaining to machine tools and R&D have been written off many years ago.

+++ His dealer may not itemize inventory carrying costs and GSA expenses on their invoices, but they certainly built them into their markup before quoting Pauly a selling price +++

My dealer doesn’t carry stock.

+++ If they didn't do so, they'd go out of business +++

This will come as a big surprise to him.

+++ Saving 1-2% via improved cash flow by paying 80-100% more to subsidize dealer and distributor inventories is no savings, and believing so is naïve +++

I cannot comment on your numbers other than to say that if they are indeed accurate no audio dealer on the planet should make use of a dealer network. Since the majority do, and I assume they have sound business plans, I can only surmise your numbers are either totally fictitious and/or you have left some ‘minor’ facts out to ‘prove’ your point.

That’s really not nice Doug.

+++ If there's a distributor in the chain between Oracle and the dealer then there are two margins. +++

Actually, there are many more margins than only two. Unless Oracle mine the metals and manufacture all the components themselves, I paid multiple margins. I do believe Teres also has suppliers, so you paid multiple margins also.

And if you used a credit card or cash card, you possibly help finance my Oracle. Thanks Doug.

+++ That's my idea of a good ROI. +++

Indeed. Since ROI is Net income/Investment, ROI is 0% if you keep the product, < 0% if you return it. To me, <0% ROI is not a good thing.

+++ naïve economics +++

LOL. Yep, it sure is.

Regards
Paul

Hi Tim

I don’t think a brick and mortar established dealer network is the way to go either. As you correctly point out, it takes significant investment. I doubt it will produce a significant enough increase in sales to cover the costs and even when finances is available and cost could be covered, cutting cost is always a good idea.

I was thinking more down the lines of an informal reference based system. The model I normally use to explain is that of a small builder. (I used to deal with small business loans some time ago and spent countless hours advising the business owners) Rather than having to build a spec house, pool, roof, deck etc., a builder can refer prospective clients to jobs he has done. I recently had my driveway paved and had a look at couple of jobs in the neighborhood before choosing the builder. A simple but very effective what to demonstrate your products and services.

There is a tremendous amount of goodwill in the audio community, so I am sure there will not be a shortage of folks who would participate. Their benefit would be a closer relationship with the manufacturer, and the prospective buyer has the benefit of talking to a ‘real’ owner rather than a pushy salesman. I have been invited into homes to look at both DIY speakers and amps, so I have no doubts this model would for a TT manufacturer also.

In short, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I am somewhat surprised at some of the responses I saw on the thread. It seems taking a risk is worn as a badge of honor.

As for trade-offs and the costs. Distribution channels and the convenience thereof has cost associated to them, that is true. So has machine tools and R&D. So to minimize cost, I chose a product where the sunk cost of R&D and machine tools were already written off, and not factored in the price.

I agree Teres is a successful enterprise and I wish them all the best. Hopefully one day I will have the opportunity to audition some of their products in the Philly/DC area.

Regards
Paul

I was going to mention the hole in Pauly's economics, but Jtimothya and Cello beat me to it.

Saving 1-2% via improved cash flow by paying 80-100% more to subsidize dealer and distributor inventories is no savings, and believing so is naive.

Our banker friend didn't get a "free" trial, nothing in business is free. He paid for the convenience he demands and delivery on demand in higher prices. His dealer may not itemize inventory carrying costs and GSA expenses on their invoices, but they certainly built them into their markup before quoting Pauly a selling price. If they didn't do so, they'd go out of business.

Dealers charge margins to cover their costs and a profit. If there's a distributor in the chain between Oracle and the dealer then there are two margins. If Pauly were comfortable with a manufacturer-direct product he could have kept those margins for himself, at the cost of 1-2% cash flow and a waiting period. That's my idea of a good ROI.

This conversation is a diversion from the OP's question about comparative drive technologies and the Verus as a specific implementation. If it were entertaining it might be worthwhile, but it's just naive economics with an attitude.

Doug

Kostas 1,

I may have gotten the model name wrong, but it was the one with three motors. If that's the Maximum Solution, I apologize for the confusion.

I haven't heard this rig myself, the owner doesn't live near me. But he sent photos and we traded emails. His report was similar to what I've heard when comparing elastic drive belts to the non-elastic drive tape used on most Teres-type tables: less slewing of leading edge transients, better pitch accuracy on sustained notes, slightly more dynamic.

I'd expect his improvement was not as large on the big CA table as on mine. After all, he did have three motors and three belts vs. my one, but it was an audible uprgade and he's sticking with it (unless he decides to try the Verus of course).

Not much, but I hope that helps,
Doug

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Pauly,
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The original question for this thread that was asked was “ Has anyone tried the new motor on their existing/old Teres, and does it seem like the upgrade is worth it ? “
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Let’s see if we can at least initially agree that you have made an effort to divert this thread to an assault (please use another adjective if you believe “assault” to be inaccurate or over stated) on the Teres / Galibier business model.
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The premise from your earlier postings was that you are a banker and want to see a return on your investment and that you are losing money by having it tied up for 6-12 months. The waiting periods are generally far less than 6 – 12 months.
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The failing in your logic and comments is that you have neglected to account for the fact that the vendor for your table of preference that distributes through the normal reatail distribution chain is charing more or less twice the price that he would charge if he were using the Teres business model.
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So, at this point you would have to begin your financial comparisons by doubling the cost of your table (assuming that the tables are equal in sonic value). You would need to check with Chris / Thom to see what arrangements are possible for auditions before you comment that there is no system provided for auditions.
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You are more than welcome to bring your current table down to Miami for a comparison to see if the Teres does in fact stand up from a sonic perspective and provides twice the value.
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Unless you are in a position to earn well over 100 % per annum on your cash in hand to cover savings created by the price differential emanating from buying through the normal retail distribution chain versus vs. buying direct from either Chris or Thom, your logic is quite flawed. If you are able to earn over 100 % per annum without risk, please clue me in to your methodology of investing so that I can shift my investment strategies and allow me to not have to go to the office on Monday or any day there after
.
Your point: “ Second, my manufacturer of choice allows me to evaluate the product of my choice in my own system, in my own sound room, in a matter weeks, two to be exact. “ Again, you or anyone working through the normal retail chain can buy something out of inventory and that would facilitate an audition with little lead time , but the Teres and Galibier tables are built to order and there is no inventory and are selling at more or less have the price. I am sure that Chris and Thom would be delighted to keep an inventory of all their models on hand if you and or their customers would allow them to charge twice the selling price..
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If you are put off by Dan’s reaction to your snippy and condescending comments, you might want to try putting yourself in his place having had your postings directed at you by someone else. You can go through Dan’s postings on previous threads and with the exception of him rising against aggressive posts like yours, his time has been spent offering positive and helpful comments. He just seems not to suffer fools well and I more than forgive him for that (actually, I smile and cheer him on).
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I am sorry and quite sure that you will not accept my appraisal that your postings have been delivered with an arrogant and pompous tone, but as a bystander, that is my initial reaction.

As a final comment, I would say that many and most that have heard a recent production Teres Turntable in their own systems would agree that the Teres TT’s best most of what is out there. That being said, Teres tables are certainly in the upper echelon of tables that are available from a sonics, value to price, and reliability point of view.
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Rgds,
Larry
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hi all
i personally feel that the better you know someone the better the chances of a better service
many audiophiles evaluate components by living with them
the biggest problem [at least here in the uk] is the limited stock of the audio outlet
the system i am using at the moment COULD NOT be supplied to me by any uk dealer
so for me at least getting it right has been a case of trial and error
probably not the most cost effective method but you do get to hear a lot of good audio products in the process

Dear Dougdeacon,

*I know a Clearaudio Master Ref owner who dumped his three stock motors in favor of one retrofitted Teres motor/controller unit, with improved results*

Could you confirm that you are indeed referring to the Clearaudio Master Reference (and not the Maximum Solution)-in which case I would appreciate more info on the results of the motor swapping.

Many thanks in advance,

Kostas

Some manufacturers may have enough capital to invest (risk) in making their turntables available through a dealer network while building a sufficient number of tables in advance that they are at hand for purchase. Hi-end audio may have as many who took that route and failed as there are still around. Nowadays, only those already established or financially well-heeled manufacturers can go it soley with a bricks n mortar retailer distribution model.

A build on demand business model - especially where the market is small - is one that were I a banker - heh - I might be more inclined to back. It would seem a much lower risk for the manufacturer and his creditors to take on.

When I bought my first Teres (a 255) I did a half year of research. I wanted sonics at a price point and the most TT for my dollar. Frankly there was very little in the marketplace at that time that could match the Teres build quality and sonic capability for the dollar. To get that I traded my money and three weeks of waiting. I was buying a hand-crafted turntable, not a CD ladder - frankly I wasn't concerned about the fact that my audio dollars weren't working for me while I was waiting.

A Web-based high-end is not everyone's cup of tea. Some people are not comfortable with a purchase if they cannot touch the product before they buy. If you need a box on a dealer's shelf then that's what you need. I have no problem with that and wish there were more dealers with stores I could visit. However, it is unclear why someone who prefers that approach would come to this thread with contrary observations about products whose distribution doesn't suit them.

I seriously doubt you can get comparable quality for the same price when a dealer mark-up is factored in. Its a trade-off - it may not be for everyone. To me Teres is a damn fine table, sonically, ergonomically, visually, and in its quality of components and construction. Customer service beyond reproach. Continuing innovation. I had no problem with that trade-off. And apparently - if the marketplace is the judge - it seems to be working. It is extremely rare to hear someone who is not a satisfied Teres customer, and Chris & co. appear very much in business, so regardless what someone might say, it seems like Teres is a successful enterprise with products people want to buy.

Tim

Pauly,

I think it's unfortunate to critique business issues that are premature and distract from consideration of the Verus motor as an engineered product that arrives at a timely moment in TT design.

Recent evolution in TT design seems to have mostly divided between belt-driven models with heroically massive platters & high-torque motors vs. lightweight born-again idlers & direct-drive models both new and remanufactured vintage. I've heard enough people whose ears I trust get excited about those damned Lencos to pique my curiousity. But intuition tells me that direct-coupled motors, together with the more sophisticated bearings, platters, and plinths of a modern TT (maybe almost ANY good modern TT), may be the next big thing. The Verus is the only solution I'm aware of that lets one test this proposition by performing a user-friendly heart transplate on his own TT in the privacy of his living room. It's an appealing idea. It might just upset the received wisdom that any given manufacturer's TT design is to be viewed as painstakingly cut from one piece of cloth that can't be improved upon outside of arm, cartridge, and platform substitutions. Of course if enough people find that this motor can make any belt-drive TT sound better, then how long will it be before the direct-coupled paradigm replaces belt drive altogether? And if heavy platters and their robust bearing assemblies are unnecessary with a direct-coupled motor, then how long before lighter assemblies take over & drive down costs of top models?

Dgarretson,
Dougdeacon is completely right about the profile of the motor pulley being slightly bulged in the center. While my Delphi uses a belt, the convex profile of the pulley keeps the belt perfectly centered. It never touches the flanges above and below the belt during operation.

Dan, it seems you have an issue because you perceive I dissed your idols. I give you my apologies but assure you any disrespect on my regard is limited to your imagination only.

Asking a retailer to make a product accessible for audition is not disrespectful. Nor is declining the suggestion to personally spend many hundreds of dollars to do so. I doubt Chris or Thom take offense in what I say, and are more than likely aware that they could have access to a bigger market if they could accommodate folks such as myself.

As for discussing the thread, again I have no way to evaluate the product at hand except at great expense too myself. The sum total of your 'technical' discussion is a combination of accepting the product as sound because you 'know' the manufacturer, and by responding in a regrettable tone when your suggestions are not found to acceptable.

As for rain or urine, I will leave the puerile aggression all to you.

Dgarretson, I understand marketing a product like a $5000 turn table would take on a much different from the product I market. However, companies like VPI, Oracle, Basis etc. do make some of their products available for review. I would like Teres and Galabier to provide me with the same opportunity.

As for all the good reports I have heard, I find it very difficult to take individuals seriously who lack even the basic ability to control their emotions on a bulletin board. Quite sad really.

Regards
Paul

Doug,

Thanks for suggesting a fly fisherman's blood knot. Now the thread runs smooth & quiet. Using this type of knot it's pretty much impossible to make two threads of identical length in order to run multiple threads. But a single thread works well if pulled tight.

Pauly,
Just what is your agenda here? We've been blessed to hear your ramblings on physics and how non-suspended tables can never be the equal of suspended tables. That's the kind of discussion I'll never have with you again as it only makes you look smarter than you are and me foolish. Now you come here to this thread and instead of discussing the subject from a scientific /engineering point of view, you just start throwing stones about how you'd never do business with Thom, Chris, or any other small business. I read your post several times. Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. You meant that to be condescending because that has always been the tone of your posts.

Pauly,

Thankfully, market forces in this cottage industry are quite different from banking, and time-value-of-money calculations are mostly irrelevant. Perhaps the hedge fund crowd would do better to maximize utility & profit margins all down the supply chain by sticking to oenophilia, art auctions, and the outsourcing of decisions regarding statement audio systems to Sound by Singer.

I bet it is a fine design. From the early days of DD motors being the standard cheap design, my worry would be rapir costs if something went wrong with the motor. It may be a silly worry with a motor this quality, but on a belt drive table and awful lot of things can be fixed by changing a belt. Short term flutter is something I find really annoying and the deveil of old DD tables, even the much (over) liked sp-10, was when the motor went bad, you basically threw the table away.

Obviously this has different qualities and froma good designed I can see it working. However, long term speed stability and rumble are tough issues to tackle.

Emailists,

The Verus was designed for and tested on tables with platters ranging from 25 lb. (the 265) to 35 lb. (my 320) to 70 lb. (Cello's 360). A 20 lb. platter will present no problems.

According to emails from Chris, the performance jump vs. belt drive is inversely proportional to the weight of the platter. Lighter platters have less rotational inertia, so they benefit most. I don't know if the Verus has been tested on a platter as light as 20 lb., but one might predict the biggest performance jump to date.

Dgarretson,
The best pulley profile is very slightly convex, with a small flange at top and bottom. Like a spool of sewing thread bulging very slightly in the middle. The bulge helps the tape self-center. The flanges provide a safety backstop.

Low mass seems to work better than high mass, so try delrin and yes, make it smooth.

Your present setup makes sense to me. Seems like the best arrangement of those materials: linearity close to the stylus where it's most audible, isolation as needed farther away. Somewhere on the Teres site there's a diagram of how to tie something called a 'blood knot'. It provides a long, relatively smooth join that helps minimize pinging as the knot rounds the pulley.

Heavy platter or light? See my response to Emailists above. As for including the flywheel as you described, you'll have to try it and tell us! It would indeed be an interesting experiment.

Doug

+++ Now why would I take your comment the wrong way +++

Perhaps because you react to my posts without giving it proper thought? My statement was not meant in any derogatory fashion, and I am somewhat perplexed at unkind your response. But I choose to take no offense – you obviously did not do marketing 101 at school.

Faced with the choice of going with a known quantity (Oracle/VPI) with no up front expenses vs. suffering a total loss expense (airplane tickets, hotel accommodation and time spent) on a totally unknown (Teres/Galabier/Red point) the choice is somewhat of a no brainier.

As I mentioned in prior posts, if a viable audition opportunity was available, I would most certainly have taken the opportunity.

In order to gain new clients and keep existing ones, we go great lengths and expense. Expecting prospective clients to suffer an expense will not work at all. In short, if somebody wants to sell me a product, I expect them to suffer the expense to market to me and not vice versa.

And BTW, if you make use of a credit or debit card, you are quite likely one of my clients already. If not, my competitors are just like me. So I ultimately you probably do not recognize my type even when we make money off you.

Kind Regards
Paul

Yeah, Pauly. Now why would I take your comment the wrong way. Thanks for giving me a real good look at who you are. You would not be able to get 100% market share in any market I'd be in because I can recognize your kind as soon as your mouth starts moving.

Doug,

While waiting for Verus I am considering adapting tape drive to the VPI TNT by machining new pulleys for motor & flywheel. In order to prevent tape crawl, would cutting 1/2" channels into the pulleys be desireable? What is the best material for a pulley (e.g. hardwood, brass, delrin)? I suppose you'd want something smooth but not slippery.

Currently to get traction I'm using three threads between flywheel & platter, and the stock round rubber belt between outboard motor & flywheel. This probably offers most of benefits of an all thread-drive system. By using threads to tightly couple the inertial masses of the flywheel & platter, the system is more stable & the motor has less work to do in dealing with the drag of the stylus. A rubber belt between motor and flywheel may actually help smooth out AC cogging & the flywheel should act as barrier to the rubber belt's torquing effects. In any case, the result is a much livelier, focused sound than you'd expect from a TNT. The only thing I don't like about it is the occasional pinging of the thread knots as they circulate through the grooves of the pulley on the flywheel.

With rim drive applied, do you think the ideal platter should be light or heavy? If heavy, it would be an interesting experiment to retain the flywheel and relocate it outboard of the Verus motor. The flywheel could be driven by a long tape loop from the platter. This would have the added benefit of snugging up the platter against the Verus motor capstan & centering the platter bearing. Centering the bearing was the purpose of the old TNT three-pulley system, which I needed to remove to enable thread drive around the platter.

I wonder what this motor would sound like on a Raven One (or AC)?

Would the platter be too heavy for it? I think my One platter is about 20 lbs.

The Raven motors are very high torque, and excellent though driven by a belt.

I'm really curious.

Dgarretson,

Using a thread drive is a challenge, for just the reason you stated. I've tried it with Teres motors (which also have small diameter pulleys) and could not prevent audible slippage. A larger diameter pulley that provided more surface area would probably help.

The taller pulley and 1/2" tape most Teres/Galibier/Redpoint owners use works better. The height provides enough surface area to avoid slippage and dimensionally stable tape won't stretch and rebound. The only trick is getting the motor exactly level relative to the platter, else the tape crawls off the pulley. We also have to site the motor in a way that doesn't let belt tension pull it toward the table. Non-elastic belts just leave no room for error.

The Verus is an interesting concept. My one real worry is the elasticity in the O-ring that couples motor to platter. We have heard elasticity any time we've introduced it into the motor-platter-plinth relationship. I once tried very thin discs of rubber under the spike protectors beneath my motor's feet. No dice, the sound got notably softer. Thin, hard rubber discs beneath the three feet of this 80 lb. table had the same effect. Rubber belts? You know about them already. Motor, platter and plinth must act as one unit, as far as possible. As Chris reports, direct drive is best. The Verus may be next best. We'll know soon.

I'll leave comparisons of CB to Mrs. W to others braver than I. I've been raked over the coals by Mr. W without ever mentioning his wife, so I can only imagine how much worse that would make it! ;-)

Dan. I guess my response would be two fold.

First, I don't need to hop on a plane to meet good people. I happen to know many that stay within ten minutes drive from me.

Second, my manufacturer of choice allows me to evaluate the product of my choice in my own system, in my own sound room, in a matter weeks, two to be exact.

You sound like a nice chap, so please don't take this the wrong way. But I wish I had clients like you and competitors like Chris and Thom. I'd have 100% market share today.

Regards
Paul

One could do what I and others who were planning on spending this kind of money on a table did. Make a few arrangements with Chris, Thom, whoever else, get on a plane to Denver and listen to the products and talk face to face. Maybe that's not as good as getting the 'table in your own room but with the satisfaction guarantee I can't really see the down side.

And best of all you'll have a chance to meet some really great people!

Hi Cello

I have no idea what the wait period is, but I have read one post were a gent stated he waited almost 12 months. I do not know what the background is pertaining to that particular transaction, and concur that it could be an anomaly and not the norm.

My post was to elude that I will not purchase sight unseen (or unheard) even if Teres has a liberal return policy, due to the extended waiting period. If, god forbid, I dislike the table, both my money (deposit) and time would be locked for the waiting period with zero benefit for me. I suppose due to my line of business I view time = money. Money not earning a return = loss.

I ended up purchasing an Oracle and which arrived in two weeks. Since it was to my satisfaction, I kept it. If I did not like the table, I could have returned it and purchased something else within a reasonable time. That said, I had heard an Delphi some time ago (10 years or so) and really liked it, so I was confident I would not be disappointed.

Regards
Paul

Wilster,
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I echo Doug’s comments about the Teres Bearings and would feel quite certain that what was once an issue with the bearings on some of the tables for a short period is no longer problem.
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I just bought my 3rd Teres table and have had wonderful experiences all 3 times and no down time in 4 years. Chris took the first two tables back in trade and made the process dead simple and financially comfortable.
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I have heard the Verus prototype run on my 360 and it out performed my 360 motor by a clear margin (I now have a Certus Direct Drive). The Verus will probably show a much greater level of improvement on tables with lighter platters and or lesser quality motors than those of my 360.
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The fact that Chris allows a test drive and you don’t have to leave your house to receive it (I seriously doubt that you will want to return it), makes this a pretty much of a no brainer for someone whose sonic goals and budget permits owning a Verus.
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In short order, once the first flurry of Verus motors are in some customer’s hands, I suspect you will have some quite positive feedback that should make one feel quite comfortable demoing a Verus.
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Pauly,
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I am a bit confused with your post. Were you required to pay for the whole table in advance while you would wait for it ? In the past, Chris required a partial deposit and the waits were not in the order of 6 months.
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Dgarreston,
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Your question was to Doug, but I will tell you that Chris is a gentleman and a pleasure to work with.
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Rgds,
Larry
.

Pauly- I would strongly recommend jumping on the next used/demo Teres that shows up here. It does happen from time to time. At a discounted price, there is virtually no risk. Also, I guess one way to look at the "investment" end of it that you talked/balked about is this way. If the table you are interested in provides an equivalent audio experience that is 15% higher than what you could get for the same price elsewheres, and if it requires you to pay up front and get delivery 1 year later, (at no risk, see the no questions asked return policy) then you have gotten a 15% return on a one year term investment with no risk. How much are 1 year CDs (no not the silver disks!!) at your bank paying this year? If its 15%, please provide your swift #s so I can wire you some money ;~) Seriously, dealing with boutique manufacturers has some pluses and some minuses. The pluses generally tend to be on the performance side, the minuses tend to be on the convenience and risk side. Here, I think its mostly on the convenience side. AND you get the satisfaction of a handmade product and the ability to deal directly with the builder.

I'm not trying to start a war here and yes I have a Teres TT (bought used; I only had to wait 1 week for mine (thanks Nick)! But its hard to use steely-eyed banker logic to evaluate a product that contributes to such an emotional experience as music (live or recorded, if its not evoking an emotional response, why listen?)

Doug,

I am a VPI TNT III owner with a poorly designed & now broken PLC controller that VPI no longer supports. I've also observed that the TT sounds better on thread drive than the stock rubber belts. However, slippage of the thread on the small pulley on the old 600 RPM motor makes thread drive difficult to keep in tune. I have been evaluating purchase of a Verus motor in comparison to VPI's upgrade path of SDS and newer motor. The Verus looks like the better alternative. Now if Chris is half as charming as Harry W's wife on the phone (answer: yes, he must be, even though I have never spoken to him), then I'll be buying a Verus.

I must agree with Willster (to some extent)

While Teres has by far the most liberal return policy I have seen, the long delay in largely negates it.

Had I the opportunity to audition, I would considered Teres when I replaced my table earlier this year. However, having to pay my $10K and than wait 6 to 12 months only to find I dislike the table was not a risk I was willing to take. If I invest $10K for 6 to 12 months, getting my money back is nothing other than a loss. For the risk and time elapsed, I would want some return on my investment.

Disclaimer: Yes, I am a banker and you can be quite sure my customers pay (a lot) for credit

That said, from what I read Teres is a very reputable company that produce a very high quality product. I may potentially become a client if given the opportunity to audition.

Regards
Paul

Willster raises some interesting questions. Chris has already discussed the DIY comment, which no longer applies to a Teres. Here's my take on some of his other points/questions.

Chris would never maintain his judgement is infallible, but his designs are proceeding forward on a progressive and logical path. He values owner input so he offered Tim, me and others a trial period for the Verus. We like our tables not because everything Chris does is perfect, but because his support is generously offered and upgrades - some expensive, some not - are readily forthcoming.

Chris once mailed me a better performing drive belt out of the blue. No charge. No demands. Just wanted us to hear it. This led us to experiment with multiple drive belts, a lively interchange of emails and better performance for all Teres owners. It may even have encouraged Chris's interest in new drive technologies, which led to the Certus and now the Verus. Playing some small part in the ongoing developments of an already excellent product line is FUN.

VERUS - VALUE OR OVERPRICED?
To get anywhere close to Teres-level performance from some belt drive tables (to pick one example) the owner has to add both a SAMA ($400) and an SDS ($1,000). Those options do nothing more than a stock Teres (or Galibier, or Redpoint) motor and controller. This manufacturer sells you motors that need isolation from the platter and controllers that don't keep even speed. Then they sell you upgrades to fix them. That, IMO, is a better example of poor value.

I know a Clearaudio Master Ref owner who dumped his three stock motors in favor of one retrofitted Teres motor/controller unit, with improved results. So have several Platine Verdier owners. Teres motors and controllers routinely improve the performance of competitors' $10-25K tables. How much more value can you get from one little company?

Well, maybe Chris has a new answer. The Verus upgrade will cost me less than VPI's, but I get a completely new motor design purposely optimized for LP playback and a radically different (and reportedly superior) platter/motor linkage. Oh, and I get a no risk trial. Sounds like value to me.

BEARING WEAR
The bearing wear Willster's friend experienced probably resulted from one of Chris's less successful early experiments, of which we were also participants (or victims, if you insist). For a time Chris was supplying brass ball bearings. Our 320 came with one. Paul (a metallurgist) predicted it wouldn't work in this application - and it didn't. The ball deteriorated quickly and bearing wear was both audible and visible.

To his credit, CB replaced our entire bearing assembly. He now supplies a durable stainless steel ball. We've been using that for several years with no audible problems. Last time we pulled it for inspection there were no visible problems either.

TRY B4 U BUY
As Tim is, so are we going to try the Verus in our system before committing to it. If it sounds better we'll buy it. If not, back it goes.

Even a non-Teres owner wanting to try a Verus on some other table would be taking virtually no risk. Let's remember Chris's amazing warranty, which precious few manufacturers would dare to offer. To quote the website, "If you are unhappy FOR ANY REASON with a Teres purchase you are entitled to return it for a full refund at any time." (My emphasis.) That applies to ANY purchaser of ANY Teres product, including Verus motors for use on non-Teres tables. Chris has never failed to stand behind any product 100%. Try telling another equipment manufacturer you just don't like your new Super XXX gizmo and want a full refund. Good luck.

ESCALATING ENTRY COSTS
I agree with Willster, it's regrettable that Teres no longer offers easily affordable/entry-level tables. It's not that prices have gone up so much, it's that less costly models (135, 150, 155, 165, 245) have been dropped while new, top performing models have been added. It's as if Toyota stopped making Corollas, and then Camry's, in order to sell only Lexuses. Nothing wrong with a Lexus, but...

It is difficult for a small manufacturer to support a wide range of models made in tiny production runs. Toyota can afford to sell Corollas at slim margins because they make and sell them by the millions. Everything becomes a LOT harder when you're talking monthly unit sales in the single digits. I give Galibier great credit for trying to serve this market with the new Serac. More than that, I've given any number of people a recommendation to try it. But look how long it's taken Thom to achieve a marketable, high quality product at a limited price point. He finalized the design nearly a year ago and he STILL can't get some components made to Galibier BQ standards. His frustration level must be even higher than the expectations of his lengthy waiting list. Top quality + short production run + low cost = a sourcing challenge that's very tough to meet.

My $.02, fire away.
Doug

Hi Willster. I'm interested in knowing more about your friend's bearing. You said the bearing was worn upon disassembling in order to move it to another base. You do not say what part was worn. Do you know? How old was it? What oil was used? What platter did it have? Was it a kit or a specific Teres model? What did your friend's machinist come up with to better it? i.e. what improvement did he make? I note that you did not say the bearing was disassembled because it was noisy so he must have been happy to go to all the effort of making a new base until he found this problem. In what way did he feel it was noisy?

A lot of questions I know but a simple statement round here can cause people to wonder :-)

cheers,

Stephen

Willster, I think I see what you're getting at and your experience through your friend has obviously given you a perception of Teres which i think is in the minority of experiences here and in general. Which is not to say you're wrong at all I just wanted to make the comment (btw, I've never heard any Teres gear) that for some people, I'm thinking about myself here; the development by people like Chris Brady of motors and motor controllers is a real asset to TT playback. Not just for his tables but for 'upgrading' otherwise fine TT's, vintage included, where the motor & PS are perhaps a weakness or getting a bit long in the tooth and reliability may soon be an issue.
If the cartridge provides half the analog waveform and the TT pitch/timing the other half. Then if one can afford it and the improvement is valuable enough, $1600 is well worth it imho. Of course as you say an audition is best advised.
FWIW, I did consider/look at the Teres motor but decided instead to buy something else. I mention that only because the money is about the same which I didn't consider unreasonable.

To be clear we have a no time limit full refund policy so trying out a Verus motor is a low risk proposition. We are encouraging Teres customers to keep their existing motor for a week or two so that they can do side by side comparisons.

The Verus motor came from our attempt to make our Certus direct drive technology available at a more reasonable price. After careful evaluation we decided that a lower cost direct drive implementation would be too compromised and didn't make sense. We think that the direct coupled topology is the next best option to direct drive and can be implemented for a fraction of the cost.

Wilster, we sell components to DIY'ers but we don't sell kits of any kind. So it's interesting that you consider Teres turntables to be DIY and therefor expect lower pricing. We are a manufacturer with overhead and expenses and are in business to make a profit. Because we sell direct we are able to operate with lower profit margins and can offer correspondingly lower prices. But this has nothing to do with DIY. The downside is that as you pointed out most buyers are not able hear our products before purchasing. So as a generalization buying direct saves the buyer money but at the same time the risk is a bit higher. There's no free lunch...

Chris

Concerning the 'Verus', any thoughts about what it's use will do to the finish, and more long term, the wood itself, of the platter?

I.e., a rim drive system engineered from the ground up would probably dictate a ring of another, more friction-tolerant material, built into the platter . Aluminum. Steel. PVC. Etc.

Dan_ed, thanks for your comments but you are not quite correct. I don't own a Teres but that doesn't mean I don't have any experience with their products. A close friend has been using their gear for years and I've listened numerous times. He decided to build his own plinth for his Teres and when he dis-assembled his setup he found that the platter bearing was already very worn and noisy and he replace it with something a local machinist came up with. The new bearing was much superior. This kind of begged the question as to whether Chris Brady's judgment was always infallible.

Your comment about Chris telling folks that he has something new worth listening to speaks directly to what I was getting at. Several on this thread have implied that they are considering buying this motor without doing what you just suggested, i.e. listening to it first.

Also, if I read between the lines, you seem to imply that perhaps I don't have experience with top notch gear. This is not the case. My reaction was more based on my original impression of the Teres gear being presented as a way to get top performance without paying supertable prices because of the diy aspect, yet Teres tables and parts just seem to be getting more and more expensive.

Of course, as always, you spend your own money anyway you see fit. What is it about a stand alone motor of this type that would cause it to cost over $1600? I've spent considerably more on many things in my system, but not without a listen first.

Well, Willster. It's like this. Many of us have first hand experience with the high level of quality of Chris Brady's work. So, when Chris tells folks that he's developed something worth listening to many of us tend to take notice.

I can understand your questioning, but you are speaking from a position of having no knowledge of the direct drive controller that Teres has developed or even of how Teres tables sound. Many of us are using tonearms and cartridges that are several times more that the cost of this new drive unit. I guess it's all relative.

Wrt the Verus, I think "try it" means exactly that - try it in your system. Most of those interested are Teres owners for whom the Verus is available for a trial period and as an upgrade at a different price than a new motor only purchase. Whether on the inside of the platter or the outside of the platter, whether the friction comes from a mechanism or from gravity, the architecture seems basically the same, compared to, say, a belt drive.

Willster, I do agree one cannot fully appreciate the quality and value of Teres tables by looking at their website.

Tim

I've been watching the Teres website on an off for a long time and one disturbing trend (from my point of view) is the escalating price structure. What surprises me here on this thread is how several people commented that this new motor sounded interesting and they were going to try it, seemingly without ever even having had it in there system. You can buy a very nice turntable for the price of this motor and I fail to see why it should cost this much. Perhaps participants here have a lot more disposable income to throw around than I do. As for myself, if I were planning to drop this kind of money on a diy turntable, I'd go for a real direct drive. There is something about this idea of the motor leaning against the edge of the platter that strikes me as kludgy.

"A good customer of Frank Schroeder owns a Loricraft 301 and 501. They sit adjacent to each other on a wide shelf.

You know how he drives them? Using the 'table which isn't playing as a motor pod belt drive system for the other one.

It's the only modular belt drive system I know of whose motor pod comes with its own Schroeder Reference tonearm (grin)."

Sounds like a waste of a couple of really nice turntables to me.. ;-) Although I have heard from one person who has owned both the Loricraft 501, and the Shindo 301 that Loricraft is not the best of the Garrard platform.

"People incorrectly attribute the "goodness" of a component to the chosen architecture instead of the fact that they are experiencing a mature, well thought out design developed by someone who knows what real music sounds like."

Thom, IMHO this works both ways..... When one see's a SET amp(no matter the model) I think they pretty much asume it's going to have a certain sound (i.e. not of the transistor variety). There are obviously widely varying degrees of sound to be had within this design parameter.... But, I have never heard a tansistor amp sound like an SET yet (or at least as good to my ears).

Chris

Thom, what a cool idea! By using one platter as the pulley to drive the other, I think (if I remember my Newtonian mechanics correctly) there is less stretching force on the belt and a lower likelihood of slippage, ergo less speed irregularity (because the driving platter will have a huge mechanical advantage compared to a tiny pulley). Moreover, the driver Loricraft constitutes a high torque motor, as opposed to the very low torque motors favored by some designers for use with high mass platters. So, I see that 2-Loricraft idea (if it sounds good) as support for the idler drive/rim drive/high torque motor school. This is not to say that I disagree with your basic premise as stated.

Thom has hit this one right on the money. Its so easy to attribute the success or failure of a component to a specific element of the design or architecture when it is the series of design decisions and the implementation of the design that makes the most difference. Otherwise, there would be very little difference in components. You could just cookie cut any component "Add 2 of these caps, three of these resistors, simmer with tubes and install in a resonance proof case". Burn in for 250 hours and listen ;~)

Provocative comment:

Fella's I have to say after switching to a Garrard 301 idler drive I'll nver go back to a belt. This seems like the same premise and is very interesting IMHO.

A good customer of Frank Schroeder owns a Loricraft 301 and 501. They sit adjacent to each other on a wide shelf.

You know how he drives them? Using the 'table which isn't playing as a motor pod belt drive system for the other one.

It's the only modular belt drive system I know of whose motor pod comes with its own Schroeder Reference tonearm (grin).

There are lots of ways to solve a problem, and saying that the architecture dictates success or failure (rather than the design and implementation), is drawing the wrong conclusion.

This dialog comes up time and again whether it involves electronics, turntables, speakers, etc.

People incorrectly attribute the "goodness" of a component to the chosen architecture instead of the fact that they are experiencing a mature, well thought out design developed by someone who knows what real music sounds like.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

A birdy recently chirped about suppliers who miss deadlines, and suggested the monkey watch his mailbox in late July.

This one looks real interesting. I might have to give it a shot.