Dan. I guess my response would be two fold.
First, I don't need to hop on a plane to meet good people. I happen to know many that stay within ten minutes drive from me.
Second, my manufacturer of choice allows me to evaluate the product of my choice in my own system, in my own sound room, in a matter weeks, two to be exact.
You sound like a nice chap, so please don't take this the wrong way. But I wish I had clients like you and competitors like Chris and Thom. I'd have 100% market share today.
Regards
Paul |
Hi Tim
I dont think a brick and mortar established dealer network is the way to go either. As you correctly point out, it takes significant investment. I doubt it will produce a significant enough increase in sales to cover the costs and even when finances is available and cost could be covered, cutting cost is always a good idea.
I was thinking more down the lines of an informal reference based system. The model I normally use to explain is that of a small builder. (I used to deal with small business loans some time ago and spent countless hours advising the business owners) Rather than having to build a spec house, pool, roof, deck etc., a builder can refer prospective clients to jobs he has done. I recently had my driveway paved and had a look at couple of jobs in the neighborhood before choosing the builder. A simple but very effective what to demonstrate your products and services.
There is a tremendous amount of goodwill in the audio community, so I am sure there will not be a shortage of folks who would participate. Their benefit would be a closer relationship with the manufacturer, and the prospective buyer has the benefit of talking to a real owner rather than a pushy salesman. I have been invited into homes to look at both DIY speakers and amps, so I have no doubts this model would for a TT manufacturer also.
In short, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I am somewhat surprised at some of the responses I saw on the thread. It seems taking a risk is worn as a badge of honor.
As for trade-offs and the costs. Distribution channels and the convenience thereof has cost associated to them, that is true. So has machine tools and R&D. So to minimize cost, I chose a product where the sunk cost of R&D and machine tools were already written off, and not factored in the price.
I agree Teres is a successful enterprise and I wish them all the best. Hopefully one day I will have the opportunity to audition some of their products in the Philly/DC area.
Regards
Paul |
From the Teres website
"Direct Coupling utilizes a large diameter pulley, an o-ring and gravity to directly couple the motor to the platter eliminating the degradations introduced by belts and idler wheels"
How is this anything other than an idler wheel?
Methinks I'll pass on this one. |
I must agree with Willster (to some extent)
While Teres has by far the most liberal return policy I have seen, the long delay in largely negates it.
Had I the opportunity to audition, I would considered Teres when I replaced my table earlier this year. However, having to pay my $10K and than wait 6 to 12 months only to find I dislike the table was not a risk I was willing to take. If I invest $10K for 6 to 12 months, getting my money back is nothing other than a loss. For the risk and time elapsed, I would want some return on my investment.
Disclaimer: Yes, I am a banker and you can be quite sure my customers pay (a lot) for credit
That said, from what I read Teres is a very reputable company that produce a very high quality product. I may potentially become a client if given the opportunity to audition.
Regards
Paul |
Hi Cello
I have no idea what the wait period is, but I have read one post were a gent stated he waited almost 12 months. I do not know what the background is pertaining to that particular transaction, and concur that it could be an anomaly and not the norm.
My post was to elude that I will not purchase sight unseen (or unheard) even if Teres has a liberal return policy, due to the extended waiting period. If, god forbid, I dislike the table, both my money (deposit) and time would be locked for the waiting period with zero benefit for me. I suppose due to my line of business I view time = money. Money not earning a return = loss.
I ended up purchasing an Oracle and which arrived in two weeks. Since it was to my satisfaction, I kept it. If I did not like the table, I could have returned it and purchased something else within a reasonable time. That said, I had heard an Delphi some time ago (10 years or so) and really liked it, so I was confident I would not be disappointed.
Regards
Paul |
+++ Now why would I take your comment the wrong way +++
Perhaps because you react to my posts without giving it proper thought? My statement was not meant in any derogatory fashion, and I am somewhat perplexed at unkind your response. But I choose to take no offense you obviously did not do marketing 101 at school.
Faced with the choice of going with a known quantity (Oracle/VPI) with no up front expenses vs. suffering a total loss expense (airplane tickets, hotel accommodation and time spent) on a totally unknown (Teres/Galabier/Red point) the choice is somewhat of a no brainier.
As I mentioned in prior posts, if a viable audition opportunity was available, I would most certainly have taken the opportunity.
In order to gain new clients and keep existing ones, we go great lengths and expense. Expecting prospective clients to suffer an expense will not work at all. In short, if somebody wants to sell me a product, I expect them to suffer the expense to market to me and not vice versa.
And BTW, if you make use of a credit or debit card, you are quite likely one of my clients already. If not, my competitors are just like me. So I ultimately you probably do not recognize my type even when we make money off you.
Kind Regards
Paul |
Dan, it seems you have an issue because you perceive I dissed your idols. I give you my apologies but assure you any disrespect on my regard is limited to your imagination only.
Asking a retailer to make a product accessible for audition is not disrespectful. Nor is declining the suggestion to personally spend many hundreds of dollars to do so. I doubt Chris or Thom take offense in what I say, and are more than likely aware that they could have access to a bigger market if they could accommodate folks such as myself.
As for discussing the thread, again I have no way to evaluate the product at hand except at great expense too myself. The sum total of your 'technical' discussion is a combination of accepting the product as sound because you 'know' the manufacturer, and by responding in a regrettable tone when your suggestions are not found to acceptable.
As for rain or urine, I will leave the puerile aggression all to you.
Dgarretson, I understand marketing a product like a $5000 turn table would take on a much different from the product I market. However, companies like VPI, Oracle, Basis etc. do make some of their products available for review. I would like Teres and Galabier to provide me with the same opportunity.
As for all the good reports I have heard, I find it very difficult to take individuals seriously who lack even the basic ability to control their emotions on a bulletin board. Quite sad really.
Regards
Paul |
+++ I was going to mention the hole in Pauly's economics +++
Yep, not having a dealer network does save money. 100% correct. But who do you think pays for R&D? Who pays for the machine tools? Yep, you guessed it
you do.
Sunk costs such as R&D and tooling costs are factored in the price, and low retail prices can be achieved only through economies of scale. The more units that can be moved, the lower the cost assigned to each unit. This is economics, pure and simple.
Besides, you think Oracle still has outstanding liabilities on the Delphi tooling machines? On R&D? I would think zero, no? The overheads on a Delphi is potentially much lower than that on a Teres.
If that sounds far fetched to you, consider a DL103. Dirt cheap with amazing performance. Denon can sell them at this low price via a dealer network because ALL
sunk cost pertaining to machine tools and R&D have been written off many years ago.
+++ His dealer may not itemize inventory carrying costs and GSA expenses on their invoices, but they certainly built them into their markup before quoting Pauly a selling price +++
My dealer doesnt carry stock.
+++ If they didn't do so, they'd go out of business +++
This will come as a big surprise to him.
+++ Saving 1-2% via improved cash flow by paying 80-100% more to subsidize dealer and distributor inventories is no savings, and believing so is naïve +++
I cannot comment on your numbers other than to say that if they are indeed accurate no audio dealer on the planet should make use of a dealer network. Since the majority do, and I assume they have sound business plans, I can only surmise your numbers are either totally fictitious and/or you have left some minor facts out to prove your point.
Thats really not nice Doug.
+++ If there's a distributor in the chain between Oracle and the dealer then there are two margins. +++
Actually, there are many more margins than only two. Unless Oracle mine the metals and manufacture all the components themselves, I paid multiple margins. I do believe Teres also has suppliers, so you paid multiple margins also.
And if you used a credit card or cash card, you possibly help finance my Oracle. Thanks Doug.
+++ That's my idea of a good ROI. +++
Indeed. Since ROI is Net income/Investment, ROI is 0% if you keep the product, < 0% if you return it. To me, <0% ROI is not a good thing.
+++ naïve economics +++
LOL. Yep, it sure is.
Regards
Paul |
Stylus drag real or myth?
Some time ago I did an experiment to determine just what effect stylus drag would have on an LP. I used a DL103 set to 2.5 gram tracking weight and used a regular 120 gram LP on a cheap mat felt mat (I believe off one of my old Regas). I made a small notch in the edge of the record and aligned it to a piece of tape on the platter. Looking up the edge of the tape (akin to looking down the sights of rifle) I could line up the notch in the LP very precisely.
The one side of the record was played (approx 20 min). The record was unclamped.
Now if the average groove speed is about 14.1 inch per second (20 inch per second on the outer grooves, 8.3 on the inner most groove), that means I am looking at about 1410 feet (16920 inches) of groove length.
After playing, the record shifted at the very most, not more than 1/64 of an inch. That means that over a period of 20 minutes and distance of 16920 inches, stylus drag amounted to only 1/64 of an inch of record slippage; or stated differently 9.235e-5 % slippage.
I did not bother to measure/calculate and compare the amount of drag needed to slide the unclamped LP on the felt mat vs. the drag need to overcome the rotational inertia of a 12 pound platter (never mind the 30 plus lbs Teres platters). I simply cannot buy into the idea that the force of the rotational mass of a platter would be less than the force required to make a 120gram LP slip.
I have not heard a Teres as yet, but I did own an idler wheel (TD124). The idler wheel had no more speed stability than any of my AC motored belt drive turntables.
Regards
Paul |
Lewm, empirical research (i.e. observation) for something as subjective as audio presents a very weak argument. I think Ketchup brought up a very valid point.
If we are to assume that physics tells us a platter will decelerate due to stylus drag, we would be mistaken if we were ignore the fact that the same force acting on the cutting lathe will have the very same effect.
From my own experience I have a few LPs that when listening to I have always thought that the transients were a little bit too quick and sharp to be real. (I am sure everybody on the BB has a few LPs that). I always put that down to the sound engineering tweaking the recording a little, but Ketchups postulation does go some ways to explain the phenomenon. Simply put, it is not inconceivable that the cutting lathes used to create those LPs slowed down more on transients than what my current TT slows down.
Sadly, we do not have any numbers or hard data pertaining to the amount of stylus drag and the effect said stylus drag has on a platter.
Regards
Paul |
Hi Ketchup. Agreed. I think it is folly to believe cutting lathes have perfect speed stability. I came across this site where the sell cutting lathes. http://www.vinylrecorder.com/index-e.html. One of the tweaks they offer is a 3.8 kg platter to reduce wow and flutter.
I guess like everything else in life, not all cutting lathes are equal. Some would undoubtedly have less stability that others.
Lewn, my bad I do not mean to be combative. I understand your point BUT nobody can really prove that stylus drag decelerates a platter to soften transients. We accept that as it is based on sound physics and what some folks have heard seem to tie in with that. A cutter slowing down the cutting lathe is based on the same physics. You cannot simply accept the physics for the one and reject the same physics for the other.
Also, I am not saying what I hear is proof that this happens, rather the cutter drag on the cutting lathe goes a long way to explain something I have heard on some of my LP's. I may be totally wrong, but I think physics back this one up.
Regards
Paul |
+++ I think the proponents of belt driven turntables will disagree with this: they will miss the sight of the big external motor with the rotating belt +++
The Verus is external and not direct drive ... |
