New Technics SL 1200 GAE

Mr. Fremer just revealed which table was playing in the comparison of the GAE and the Caliburn. I correctly identified the GAE in the fist YouTube video he posted. 

Mr. Fremer wrote:

"The file labels were not reversed in this story!
In this case the Technics should have sounded better and I’m glad many people heard that, but there’s a good reason and it's why i asked you to listen and look!"

He goes on to discuss a problem with the pressing and is going to perform comparison with another pressing.

Regardless of the pressing this verifies what some of us have stated about how good this table is. It is not good for the money, it is just plain exceptional.

I hope he performs the next comparison with the GAE in manual mode and with the torque set to 20%. 


Read more at http://www.analogplanet.com/content/technics-sl-1200g-versus-continuum-caliburn-and-sat-arm-file-ide...

@audiofun , Yes, I do still here the same boogie and drive in manual setting with the torque down to about 1/4 or less of max.  

Jbhiller:

Your analogy of the table sounding like it couldn't loosen its top button when it is in auto mode is a perfect description!

In life we are always presented with choice and I feel i took the right one. I owned a Clearaudio performance DC and then upgraded to Gyro SE which I still own. Then i heard the GAE at Fidelis Audio in NH and completely fell in love with it. I bought it right away and rushed home to install. I'm using Ortofon Cadenza Black MC cartridge right now on the technics and a Lyra Delos on the Gyro. I am also using a Record weight with the GAE. After a year of side by side use i've come to the conclusion that I will put for sale my Gyro SE since it is not used as often. every time i get a new record or want to enjoy one of the  best for my collection the GAE is the indisputable choice. I Agree with the other owners in the forum about the build quality and sound. I just don't feel the itch of upgrading anymore with this TT. Speed control is also way better than the Clearaudio and Gyro. I don't think i will ever sell my GAE. I might get another turntable to replace the Gyro eventually but the Technics will stay with me forever

Just a quick post to say thanks for sharing the evolution of your TT journey balboahu.

Yours is the kind of post I like to read.  Someone who comments and makes a decision based on three quality components of the same type that you have owned, in this case TT's.

The Clearaudio and Gyro SE are no slouches so when you say you are only keeping the Technics, that speaks volumes!  Good for you and enjoy it as it will be around a long, long time.  They last forever.

Just a FWIW y'all, regarding the original post.

We have successfully mounted a 12" Triplanar to the SL1200GAE. The combination is fabulous!

That's Super!!! I would be interested in the details! Especially the music. Kept wondering if you really accomplished it. I would think that this will impact All TTs.
Can you give me hint at cost beside TT and Triplanar ???

Thanks
Norbert

I have now owned my GAE for about 10 months and it has gotten plenty of play time. I generally play it more often than my Sp10 mk3 as I save the MC Anna's stylus life for hard-core listening sessions whereas it's far less expensive in the long run to listen to my 103R for non-critical sessions or background music and for less than pristine pressings :)

I have a habit of every 3-6 months reverting back to a former configuration to make sure what I thought I heard previously is in fact what I'm hearing now (I do this for my whole listening chain) I did this with the GAE regarding the "auto" vs "manual" mode. I went back to auto mode about 3 months ago. I was shocked at how much better it was. I have some original recordings of the deck in auto and manual mode during its break-in period and I can tell you without a doubt it sounded far better in manual mode when the unit was newly arrived.

So what changed? Obviously I can't definitively answer that, however, I can speculate. The bearing would have run in and it is possible that the electronic mechanism that this table has to quell vibrations is not working nearly as hard, perhaps translating to a more airy languid and relaxed sound, i.e. It no longer sounds like a good (but not exceptional dac) when in auto mode.

I went back and forth many times and sure enough, once run-in I am firmly on the "auto-mode" side of the fence now, but when the table was new? No way!!!

Based on what I could glean from Mr. Fremers review of this table, he had it in his possession for some time. Perhaps his unit was fully run-in when he attempted the comparison between manual and auto mode, I don't know but that would explain at least to me why he preferred auto-mode.

I can still hear a sizable delta between auto and manual mode it's just that the advantage now goes to auto-mode. 

My my advice is run the thing in manual mode until you get about a 500 to a 1000 hours on the bearing and then start switching and comparing the playback modes. You may be surprised; I was literally SHOCKED and for a minute didn't believe my own ears.

Bearings in turntable are immensely important! I look at it like new rings on a piston seating themselves along the cylinder walls of an auto engine :)

I would like to hear from some owners who have some mileage, figuratively writing, on their SL-1200 G or GAE.

That's Super!!! I would be interested in the details! Especially the music. Kept wondering if you really accomplished it. I would think that this will impact All TTs.
Can you give me hint at cost beside TT and Triplanar ???

@nkonor take a look at this link:
 https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=vinyl&n=1149409&highlight=Technics+Ralph&r...

atmasphere:

May I inquire if you actually drilled into the top 10mil aluminum plate in order to mount that arm?

atmasphere,

Thanks,

From the pic on my IPhone it looks like a Fine effort! Will take a look at the link you provided tonight.
 
nkonor

May I inquire if you actually drilled into the top 10mil aluminum plate in order to mount that arm?

One hole is drilled into the original plinth.  The other two are on the armboard we fabricated.

I see. I noted that this is a 'G' and not a "GAE" so some of the shock I initially felt subsided LOL

Atmasphere, how do you compare your own Empire based direct drive turntable offering against the Technics 1200 GAE ?

As both a WIS (I favor traditional Rolex and Omega designs) and a GAE owner I think your observations are apt.  In both cases the concept and cliche that form follows function is total.

Atmasphere, how do you compare your own Empire based direct drive turntable offering against the Technics 1200 GAE ?

While over the years the model 2098 we've built has acquitted itself very nicely over 'tables costing a lot more, overall I think the Technics is a better machine.

Its biggest weakness is the arm (which should not be mistaken for the original even though it looks the part just as the 'table does), so that is why we looked see if the Triplanar 12" could be installed. Quite literally, the SL1200 is now the most speed-stable machine in production and it is well-damped right out of the box. So mating a state of the art arm to it was a no-brainer.

atmasphere,

Looked at the link you provided last night. All it does; is make me want a full review and cost for you to build one for me. Looking to me as if others are pondering the same. Your thoughts are much appreciated.

Thank You,
nkonor

Contact me via email.

We've only done this with the Triplanar. Not sure how well it will work with other 12" arms! But IMO the Triplanar is one of the very best out there.

atmasphere,

Still pondering TTs. 

GAE w/ 12" Triplanar if you would accomplish the build.

Kuzmz Stabi M w/4 point arm

TW Acoustic Black Knight 

Tech Das III w/Graham arm


I think so far, the GAE w/12" Triplanar makes the most sense.
And best value.

 The TT world seems like it has so many choices that are good. Hearing them is getting harder.

Just wanted to respond, since you give so much of your time and thoughts to this site.

Will contact you when I stop pondering and decide to pull the trigger on my retirement TT.

Thank You
Norb

Hello Norb, the nice thing about the Technics is its reliable and is not likely to need any service likely for decades if its not abused.

Its a bit of a statement that no turntable has been more speed stable than the SP10 MkIII  in the succeeding decades since its production; the SL-1200 is now the 2nd most speed stable machine ever made, being about 90% the difference between an SP10 MkII and SP10MkIII.

Add to that one of the finest arms in production and you have a very nice and timely machine.

Atmasphere,

I appreciate your input on all subjects on this forum as do many others. Always Sound and sensible advice.

Recovering from back surgery and finally was able to sit in the "Sweet Spot" for the first time since Sept/Oct 2016; just this 4th of July weekend.

Want to finish my room acoustics 1st. Still cannot be steady on a ladder to do the ceiling treatments yet.

 I agree with your thoughts on the Technics and Triplanar arm.

Thank You and Best to You 
Norb

@nkonor I hope you are feeling better! 

Norbert,
That's quite a leap going from the standard spec 1200gae to TW Black Night or the AF3 with Phantom. If your search radius has expanded to that extent I can guarantee the 1200 in basic form will not satisfy you. (Although I admit I've not heard one with a triplanar so that could be something of a game changer ;)

Your most recent alternatives are sound choices short of going for a 6 figure table. ;)
 Suggest the inclusion of the Avid Acutus which is also superb. I don't own one BTW but would like one for Christmas if anybody's listening. :D

All the best for the future.

moonglum,

Yes, my mind is in a tizzy about choosing my last retirement TT. So hard to get auditions nowadays. An in home audition; Good luck with that.
 I have plenty of AMEX pts. Should get me air tickets, rental car and hotel for my 1st RMAF in Oct and I live in Chicago; so Axpona is a slam dunk. I have heard an Avid at Music Direct many times when I lived just 10min away.Although they did not have a real room.
Agree that could be a possibility that would add to my already confused process.

Although I have not PM 'd Ralph yet about modding a 1200GAE to take the 12" Triplanar; I lean strongly to this option ; I too think that this option would be a game changer. It's why I started this thread.

 I am open to thoughts about all this and happy that you chimed in.

Thanks
Norb

Hi Norb.
There are a few Black Night users on the forum who will be able to describe the intricacies of that table in detail.
 Earlier in the thread there was a lot of comment regarding MF's Continuum comparison and being honest some were getting slightly carried away with the potential of the 1200. Once Mikey had stopped fooling around with the troublesome warped disc and did a simple vocal comparison the superiority of the Caliburn was clear to hear. IMO it was an easy kill despite my desire to cheer on the underdog. It does make me wonder how the 1200g twin rotor platform could be elevated to anything close to that standard or if we're just "chasing shadows" by trying to do so.
At the end of the day tables such as the 1200 & the Prime are built down to a price and good though they are we have to be realistic. With the best will in the world there are better albeit more expensive tables out there. I genuinely like these 2 tables but that's just my feeling on the matter.
Best regards,

Yes, That's part of my quandary.

Leads me back to a Black Night, Tech Das III even a Kronos..

Think it was a Dual 1229 and a V15 Ty III that made it all so easy in the Day.

Best

The SL 1200 G/GAE is is every bit as good as I and others have stated. It is far beyond anything I've heard from VPI although I've not heard the VPI DD.  Much as I love my Kuzma 4 Point and I'm buying an Airline I prefer the GAE to the Xl DC which I had a nice session with.

The TW's sound dark to me but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Different systems, different likes.  I'm not saying that it's as good as a Caliburn although I have no idea why Mr. Fremer would choose that messed up record with a collection so vast.  I definitely could hear the superior timeline of the GAE and I could definitely hear the superior decay and body of the Caliburn. Like I've written before, remove that horrible rubber mat and the GAE takes on a whole new character for the better.

The stock mat is horrid and sucks life and light from the sound. 

I have a buddy with a +20k TT and a Triplanar with a very expensive cartridge and it will not touch the GAE for corporeal real-ness. The turntable belonging to my friend is a DD and so the timing is nearly perfect as is the GAE. 

Again, it sounds like my SP10mk 3 NG only less grand. Like a Steinway Parlor Grand compared to a Concert Grand.

i did recently have a $10k phono stage which was superb connected to the GAE.  It is the third best stage I've heard. I didn't buy it because in the end, although I absolutely loved the aesthetic, it was bested to my and my gf's ears by the iPhono 2 + linear PS. Now, it was close enough that I could very very easily see the choice coming down to personal taste. 

blouse: 

if you have a warm and/or lush sounding phonostage or overall system sound, try removing the mat and placing the record directly on the brass platter. If you have a neutral to just shy of neutral try an acrylic mat. I am using a mat I received from Chris Thornton which is acrylic. I was the guinea pig for this mat. contact Chris at Artisan Fidelity or find another acrylic mat.

obviously mats are very important and can make or break a system. The stock silicon feet are warm sounding and lean towards a bit of lushness. I experimented with different combinations until I arrived at a balance which I loved. 

The one one thing I can tell you is that I've never had a combination where the stock mat didn't absolutely destroy the sound and that goes for the original stock rubber mat which came with my SP10 mk3, I use a custom copper mat which I purchased from Artisan Fidelity. 

The copper mat mat does NOT work on the GAE! It was immediately evident that this was a bad combo but to Technics credit I believe the manual states that if you use a record weight or such the mass should under a certain amount (would have to refer to he manual again) and my copper mat did exceed the recommended weight limit.

I think it was Mr. Fremer who recommended the Holger Stein mat. I may try that mat one day.

I for one do not use clamps or weights. Everyone I've tried has shut the music down on both of my tables.

That table and arm will tell you Everything with regards to the sound based on your decisions, it is very very revealing.

I can clearly hear the differences between feet, mats and head shells.

Experiment and listen deeply into the music. I find small ensembles with accompanying vocals to be some of the best music to hear these types of changes.

Audiofun, for the record, let me get this straight. You are asserting that your 1200GAE “is FAR BEYOND anything VPI have ever produced” except the one you haven’t heard? Isn’t that a tad disrespectful?

Furthermore, you claim that whilst creating a technological marvel of a turntable (NC machining from solid, engineering a new “non-cogging” twin rotor DD motor etc) Panasonic/Technics then decided to RUIN the whole thing by putting a “crappy” rubber mat on it as their standard, deeply researched, recommendation?

If things really are as bad as you describe you need to have a word with the manufacturer as a matter of urgency! ;^)

Ironically, Stereophile’s reviewer states that his favourite part of the T/T, old & new, was the “thick rubber mat”!

You can’t both be right?!?!  ;^)

(Well, in reality, you can because it's an arbitrary choice)

Enjoy the music!

@moonglum i will add my 50 cents

Panasonic/Technics then decided to RUIN the whole thing by putting a “crappy” rubber mat on it as their standard, deeply researched, recommendation?

If things really are as bad as you describe you need to have a word with the manufacturer as a matter of urgency! ;^)

I think he’s right. When i replaced rubber mat on my Technics Sp10mk2 with Micro Seiki CU-500 is was a huge upgrade, seriously. I have not tried the CU-180 which i have as a spare (if anyone need it), unfirtunately it does not fit into my Luxman PD-444 platter as good as on Technics. The CU-500 is thicker, but both the CU-180 and CU-500 fits the Technics SP-10mk2 (and mk3) platter like it was made especially for Technics. I can’t use rubber mats anymore. On LUX i use Saec SS-300 mat. 

Here is a picture of my spare CU-180 https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19748589_1777769435574549_8730619823982480662_n.jpg?oh...

And this is CU-500 on my SP-10mk2 https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12923282_1223524284332403_4878242080706096266_n.jpg?oh...

moonglum:

the tone of your post seems adversarial, but I could be wrong. I will try to address yours questions/points succinctly.

Audiofun, for the record, let me get this straight. You are asserting that your 1200GAE “is FAR BEYOND anything VPI have ever produced” except the one you haven’t heard? No. I clearly wrote "It is far beyond anything I've heard from VPI although I've not heard the VPI DD".

Isn’t that a tad disrespectful? As your quote is misrepresentative (innacurate) of what I had actually posted I view this question as non relevant to my post.

If things really are as bad as you describe you need to have a word with the manufacturer as a matter of urgency! ;^)
I needn't have a word with Matsushita. Urgency on what scale? People starving, or needing housing? It's a $4k record player. It's a toy I use it to enjoy my evenings and relax after work. It is not urgent to me. I remedied the situation by tuning it to my ears as most people do with their  gear no matter the cost. If I were to follow your line of reasoning, by now I would have contacted nearly every manufacturer of audio equipment  I've owned throughout the years to  chide them over the crappy power cords they send with their respective products. As it stands, most manufacturers will inform you that they include a standard P.C. for the sake of convenience, knowing that if they installed a high-end P.C. it would drive up the cost and most people would still most likely choose their own flavor of P.C.

You can’t both be right?!?! ;^)

(Well, in reality, you can because it's an arbitrary choice)  You answered your own question.

Chakster:

that mat looks gorgeous! I need to polish mine :) now that I've viewed your picture.

Audiofun,
You have no sense of humour ;^)
Sorry about the misquote.

I re-read my post and can see why you might think that but did insert some "winks" as this is the standard way of showing that the post is light-hearted.

Ok, you felt earlier that the 1200 beats your buddy's 20k+ T/T with triplanar and expensive cart (hope I got that right as I'm using the power of recall) whereas IMO, not having heard yours, I don't think the standard 1200GAE will convincingly beat a VPI Prime (or even beat it at all) hence my humorous reaction. We all have our respective opinions and I'm not a VPI user.

I would encourage the OP to listen to as many as possible to form his own opinion even if someone turns up enthusing " I own both Prime & 1200 and feel turntable X just edges it".

Enjoy the music and have a nice day! ;)

On the contrary :) I have a very good sense of humor, at least my mom thinks I do :) my girl friend, not so much all the time, especially when I try to justify why buying another piece of expensive gear is a smart financial move :) 

I take you at your word, no harm no foul. I really just wanted to make sure my words were quoted correctly. 

You mention ion you have a 1200, it it a SL 1200 mk X or one of the newer generation SL 1200's (GAE, G or GR). Their is a world of difference between the prior generation of SL 1200's and the new twin rotor core-less design (the GR is a single rotor core-less design)

i do realize there is not right answer regarding your choice as it is just that, your choice and preference.

Listening to Stevie R. Vaughn on 200g/45 on the GAE as I type this, good times!

Now I've misread you. It appears you were making the point that if someone owns both tables..,etc. i see that you were positing a hypothetcial scenario, my bad.

@audiofun 

Chakster:
that mat looks gorgeous! I need to polish mine :) now that I've viewed your picture.

Thanks, but may i ask what do you use to polish those mats? 

Yes, I use Weiman Silver Wipes, works great with copper. There is another, I'll get the name and let you know.

No problem Audiofun :)

We had to replace the stock mat on the Technics as well. It posed a bit of a problem, as a proper mat should have a very intimate relationship with the platter (in this case, glued down). That meant that we couldn't use the screws that hold the platter to the motor unless we drilled holes in the platter pad, which would have made a mess of it.

The stock platter pad is IMO one of the weaker aspects of the new Technics but none of their machines have ever had a good one so this is not surprising.

@audiofun

Yes, I use Weiman Silver Wipes, works great with copper. There is another, I’ll get the name and let you know.

Nice, i think Weiman Silver Wipes will help me to polish my Luxmans 444 and probably Victor UA-7045 tonearms.

I'm always entertained how everyone thinks what they own is the very best.....

@stringreen wrote.   I’m always entertained how everyone thinks what they own is the very best.....

You forgot to complete your sentence..... "what they own is the very best for them"

brf:

HA!!! You read my thoughts.

Ralph, "we couldn't use the screws that hold the platter to the motor unless we drilled holes in the platter pad".

What about something like rubber cement that makes a bond but can be peeled away?  Rubber cement itself may not be best, I don't know how effective that would be between rubber and metal?

More importantly, how many other mats are glued down?  I'm not aware of aftermarket options, but then I never looked for this consideration.

@pryso  The mat employs a permanent-stick mounting with a peel-off. Its not rubber.

Ralph, sorry, I meant trying some means of gluing the stock rubber mat that would not be permanent.

The stock mat is too soft in my opinion.

So, is there any update on the Technics 1200 GAE vs the SP10 mk2 ?
I am considering one of these TTs. Either I will get the 1200 G/GAE with the Time-Step mods (linear PSU) or the SP10 mk2 refurbished by Krebs or Albert Porter. Do we have a clarity on which one is the better TT ?