New system has fatiguing, harsh high frequency sounds. How to fix?
I just purchased my first audio and home theater system (other than a bluetooth speaker or computer speaker system). I use it for listening to music as well as watching movies. It is a tremendous upgrade and I’m enjoying it. It has clarity and detail that I have never heard before. However, I notice a harshness in the high frequency sounds when listening to music.
I would like my treble to be smooth, sweet, soft, silky and gentle. Right now it is the opposite of that. It is annoying, screechy, metallic and harsh.
I am seeking a solution to that issue. From the little I have been able to find on this subject, it seems that room acoustics might be a big part of my solution. Is that true? If not, what is my next step? An equalizer? I can’t see many options for big changes in speaker placement. At most I can move them a few inches or change the angles.
My listening room is about 11.5 feet by 11.5 feet and square except for the doorway in the back corner which protrudes into the room 18 inches x 44 inches. In the room are a bookcase, couch, end table, media center stand (holding TV, center speaker, receiver, disc player and Roku), computer & computer monitor, my speakers (and rear speaker stands), a ceiling fan and that’s about it... I’m describing the room on the assumption that the room (or its contents) are relevant to the treble problem I’m describing. (However, throwing some thick blankets over my TV and computer monitor, as a test, did not change the issue.)
Disc Player: LG UP875 4K BLU-RAY PLAYER BestBuy SKU 5979504
Streaming Box: Roku Ultra streaming player (model 4660)
I mention the monitors (and their size) in case they play a role in reflecting sounds.
Speakers:
Front 1: Polk Audio RTi A7 floorstanding speakers
Front 2: Polk Audio RTi A5 floorstanding speakers
Center Speaker: Klipsch RP-250C Center Channel Speaker
Subwoofer 1: Polk Audio PSW125 Subwoofer
Subwoofer 2: Klipsch R-112SW Subwoofer
Rear/Surround: Polk Audio RTI A3
Speaker Layout: 5.1 layout with two pair of front speakers and two subwoofers.
The front speakers are on either side of the LG TV on the front wall (and near the room corners. The front speakers are angled in. Minimum distance to wall is 10", but measuring straight/parallel from back of speaker to wall is at least 18". From side of speaker to wall is at least a foot (one side of room has 30 inches). There is only 3" between each RTi A5 and RTi A7 speaker.
The rear speakers are behind the couch at each corner and against the back wall.
One subwoofer is in the back corner. The other is midway on the other wall and angled toward listening area.
For music, I usually prefer listening in 2-channel stereo. The dual pairs of front speakers are awesome. (I initially started out with a 7.1 layout but I prefer this layout now.) The high frequency problem exists even in 2-channel stereo. It also exists if I use only 1 pair of front speakers.
Wiring All speakers are bi-wired, except the center (and subwoofers), which don’t support it. (Not bi-amp’d, just bi-wired*.)
Ocelot Banana Plugs, 24k Gold Plated Connectors, Open Screw Type
BTW, my prior speakers were the Edifier e25 Luna Eclipse. I thought they sounded good and I did not remember them having these harsh high frequency sounds. After listening to my new system for a week, I went back to those for a test and they sounded horrible in comparison. The harsh high frequency sounds are much worse, and every other aspect is worse as well. (That shouldn’t be a surprise given the price ranges being compared, but my incorrect memory had been that they didn’t have this issue.)
For 2-channel listening I'd recommend a tube amp, room treatments, and possibly speaker toe-in/out adjustments. Borrowing a partial quote posted by a very knowledgeable man from another thread touting an advantage of employing a tube amplifier ...
although solid state amps appear to have less distortion, the distortion that they do have is far more audible and objectionable to the human ear.
@kosst - Not sure who voted you king and supreme intellect. I am sharing my opinion based on experience. If you disagree with my opinion you can simply disagree (as in your sentences which follow your first). No need to make disparaging comments as in your first sentence.
The disadvantages of tubes are clear: 1 high energy consumption (think of the environment) 2 often very speaker load dependent frequency response (i.e. tube sound where an amplifier should not have a sound of its own. 3 often pretty bad measured test results. 4 Often quite low output 5 expensive 6 hassle
"I would like my treble to be smooth, sweet, soft, silky and gentle. Right now it is the opposite of that. It is annoying, screechy, metallic and harsh."
In my experience, assuming everything is working as expected and nothing is broken, the metallic and harsh sound is a by product of excessive distortion. That can be caused by poor quality components and/or poor electrical matching among the components. If the sound quality is harsh even at low listening volumes, my guess would be its the CD player causing most of the harshness. The easiest way to reduce treble harshness is to set up the speakers such that the listening position is off-axis of the tweeters, e.g. no toe-in, tilt back, etc.
kalali: "The easiest way to reduce treble harshness is to set up the speakers
such that the listening position is off-axis of the tweeters, e.g. no
toe-in, tilt back, etc. "
I don't remember who recommended that earlier in this thread, but I did try it and, you are right, it did make a significant difference. Thanks for expanding on why it can be a good remedy.
When I worked in QA they told us "You can't fix what you can't measure."
So start by getting the Real Time Analyzer app for your smart phone and do some measurements. My recent listening rooms have been on the small side with lots of plaster/sheetrock and bare wood floors.
When measured (I used MathAudioRoomEQ and a RatShack digital meter) there's a +15db peak centered around 7khz.
Knowing what the problem was, I could fix it with EQ. If I owned rather than rented, I'd have used room treatments as some are advising here, but the point is, I knew what the problem was.\
Take some measurements. See where the problems are. Then ask for advice again.
One of the best quotes I've seen about audio gear that has helped me understand how things interact is "the volume knob on an amp is like the focus ring on a camera". There's definitely a sweet spot with an amp/speaker combo where things come alive a bit more, sometimes it's a broader range than others but in my experience bigger speakers usually make me want to turn up the volume to hear them at their best. At which point a certain significant other turns it down again.
Speakers vibrate the air around them and bigger speakers vibrate more of it. Those vibrations interact with the walls, ceiling, floor etc and cause issues. As you've found, smaller speakers often work better than bigger ones in a small room. The important thing is to match your setup to your preferred listening level in the particular room.
There's a harshness associated with digital reproduction and also sometimes around the crossover frequencies of speakers. I've found having tubes somewhere in the chain helps, before I switched to a tube pre/power combo I tried an ifi itube tube buffer, which definitely got rid of a lot of the annoying harshness in the upper mids.
@corparehippie "There's a harshness associated with digital reproduction". That certainly is true up to a point of quality (which we're obviously dealing with in this case), but the upper echelons of today's digital reproduction have no such harshness and are frankly, unparalleled by any other sources. Check out an EMM Labs DA2 with V2 firmware (or based on reports, the top of the line MSB DACs).
To be honest, I have never noticed such harshness, even using modest digital sources in a revealing system. There is clarity compared to vinyl, which is not surprising if you look at the high frequency drop off in plots of many pickup cartridges. Reality takes getting used to. If there is harshness, it is usually either the speakers or a reflective room. One other thing could be clipping distortion on the input stage of the amplifier. Most digital sources conform to the Red Book standard of 2.0 Volt output, and that is a lot for the line input of many traditional amplifiers. Amplifier designers would do well to take notice, but if they don’t, inline attenuators are the easy cure.
@willemj It really depends upon what we’re talking about. Most of the low to mid audiophile digital isn’t harsh because it’s artificially smooth and lacking in detail retrieval and dynamics. In that regard, you are absolutely correct in that most audiophile digital these days is not harsh, but it is lacking in many other ways. If that same digital actually revealed the detail that’s there in a proper system that is capable of revealing such detail, they would certainly be quite harsh almost across the board. But this is all besides the point here; in this case we’re talking about a blu ray player and a receiver - that’s quite low end and is going to be harsh in almost any system (it certainly also doesn’t help that the OP is using four speakers for two channel - that can’t help, not to mention that such speakers are low end to boot).
I suspect people get used to certain types of distortion, including high frequency harshness. Distortion is a very relative thing. You often don’t realize exactly how much distortion there is in the sound until you eliminate some or most of it. Almost all system I’ve ever heard, including those at shows, exhibit gross distortion when the volume is greader than average volume. It’s as if the system just can’t maintain its composure at higher volumes and blows its cool. A great many causes of distortion, especially in the high frequencies, have been identified. But not all of them.
1. Another person mentioned a break in period for the speakers. Correct! Very, very, important. Pound them with bass within reason to loosen the woofers. Just play it all day at low volume all day for the tweets and mid for a week And I bet they will start settling down. The Klipsch will especially be harsh at first because of their high efficieny. 2. You mentioned room acoustics. This is also correct. After speaker break in, if not good then I would change the room with absorbsion material to deaden the ’biting" frequency. A decorative quilt or something on a back wall might be enough so experiment. The highs will hit the quilt and not reflect as much. 3. An equalizer will also work to locate the hot frequency. The EQ is just another piece of equipment in the audio path so do not let it be the weak Link in your system. Make sure the signal to noise ratio and dynamic range can complement your system. 4. Some people in the blog mention distorion is expected in a lower end system. Somewhat correct? You can have a system like yours in an acoustically good room outperform a very hi-end system in a bad acoustic room. You have a nice system for the room size and it will not take much power to have great sound under the correct acoustical condition.EQ alone may not totally fix the problem but could make a huge diffetence. An EQ worked for me. Rooms highs were absorbed
I am not denying that his system sounds harsh, only that this is not because he uses a digital source. Earlier in this thread I have given a checklist of possibilities. By the way, there is nothing wrong with Bluray players as disc spinners (think Oppo). In this case the BD player was even used with an external DAC, so the sonic signature would be that of the DAC. Anyway, the harshness in that small room system has already been cured. As for harshness at higher levels, and it is indeed real, ceteris paribus the root cause of that is insufficient amplifier power. I fail to understand why self professed audiophiles do not understand that moving a lot of air simply requires a lot of energy. Fortunately for him the OP has solved that potential problem with his 2x500 watt rms amplifier.
As for break in, not surprisingly as mechanical devices speakers need a bit of that. Harbeth say a few hours will do, and that was indeed my experience, even if the difference was never more than minor.
Using toe in on most speakers will have very notable changes on upper treble response for wide range of speaker designs, primarily because of greater degree of output fall off at the side is greater in the upper treble range over others. That said, I find that sense of brightness people mention is more often related to mid treble response instead. Add the fact that hearing acuity and energy levels of the recorded music is typically less at the upper range only is compounding. Still, even mid treble response will fall off faster over its range as compared to the bass or mids.
You will impact the sound stage and central imaging as you experiment, so take your time with a new position. Changes like placement time to determine the overall effect. You do get an idea if its close early on, but fine tuning is an effort over time.
Speakers do break in, likely more so than most others in the audio chain. Spiders, roll surrounds, and even certain cone materials will adjust over the initial hours of use.
Looking at your set up it is clear to me that you are sitting way too close to all those speakers especially given how tall/big they are. No wonder the sound is not too your liking. You need another 3 to 5 more feet away from them. Maybe go for a smaller speaker like a bookshelf. You don't need to get rid of your Sony. It's not the problem.
@lowerdrive, There’s always the $3 Wal-Mart experiment. Buy a pair of white winter socks and hang them over the tweeters, see if that doesn’t smooth things out. Also. I think break-in is only an issue for tube gear.
I did not read all the previous replies, but You did quite the detailed write up for your equipment, but you left out the most important thing. What kind of music do you listen to?
Many mass speaker manufactures try to impress you out of the gate so they design speakers to be very reveling on the top. You can hear highhsts like you never heard before but after a couple of hours it’s painful. Pop / electronic music suffers in many areas of SQ.
I had purchased B&W cm601, impressive on top, but painful with my Puoneer Elite receiver. Replaced the receiver and sonos connect for Primaluna Dialog HP and Schiit Yggy DAC. Still harsh with some female and poorly mixed and electronic instruments. Acoustic music all wonderful. Next replaced B&W with Aerial Acoustics 5T. Ah ........ finally.
So, if you don’t want to spend 12k on a new system here are my suggestions:
1) Replace your digital sources with a TT. That will effectively cut the digital harshenes you are hearing.
2). Listen to acoustic music mostly.
3). Try Roon and Educate yourself on how to use a 3rd party software to apply convolution filter to improve the room Acoustics and EQ.
fraterperdurabo: "...the Real Time Analyzer app for your smart phone and do some measurements." Awesome suggestion. Thank you. I didn't know about those apps. I found a couple different Android apps including these:
RTA Audio Analyzer by RadonSoft Spectroid by Carl Reinke Sound Level Meter by BOLDEN Advanced Spectrum Analyzer PRO by Vuche Labs
I have to learn how to use that information, but in playing around with Spectroid for 5 minutes I already see how useful this will be. It does seem like the frequencies around 7kHz are the ones that sound harsh to me when the level is too high. I'll keep measuring.
psickerson: "What kind of music do you listen to?" The harshness I was describing is most apparent to me in classical Indian music (sitar, sarangi, etc.), which is acoustic. However, it was also apparent in alternative rock.
"Roon" - interesting. Had never heard of it, but Roon opens up a whole new can of worms for me, starting with the fact that it won't run on my operating system (Linux). I"ll leave that aside for another time.
The snag with smartphone apps is that they use the phone's microphone. In the case of the Iphone that is not such a problem because there are few models and therefore they can be calibrated for. In the case of Android, the variety is enormous. The best way to measure is to use the free REW software with the UMIK-1 usb microphone ($85 from PartsExpress). Unfortunately there is a learning curve, but fortunately YouTube is full of instructional videos. Since you use Linux you are unlikely to be very bad with software.
psickerson RE: "Roon - since you never heard of it, how can you make assertions about the configuration requirements. "
I simply quoted from their website. Core doesn't run on Linux according to their own site. Do you know otherwise?
willemj - I have a couple mics I could try with my Samsung Galaxy S8. For example a Sennheiser e835. I also have a Rode NTG4 and a couple others. I haven't tried connecting directly to phone yet, but would expect I can make it work.
It's good you're going to separate your systems. If u just have to have a receiver, find one that has MOSFET transistors, instead of IC chips. Your sound will be much fuller and not as tinny sounding. There were many good suggestions about the room, contents and treatments. Glass is not conducive to good sound. It WILL take hours, for a new system to start sounding its best. Have a friend help set up your speakers. Inches and quarter of inches makes a huge difference. Try raising your speakers up a bit. Try one thing at a time, then add the things that worked together. Avoid square rooms. You can start with one, then do things to make the room rectangular. Concentrate on a mosfet amp. You'll be amazed at the difference.
The one thing I have not seen addressed is what type media you are using? If you are streaming, what are you streaming? Mp3,? Flac? other lossless ? If you are streaming Mp3, there is much of your trouble. I only ask because I have been surprised at how many people know very little about bitrate and its influence on music.
@lowoverdrive. I kinda figured you knew an Mp3 from Flac, wav, etc since you are running linux. I'd guess your problem is the HT receiver. They usually put all their marbles in the pursuit of video which calls mostly for a narrow range of midrange with powered Subs doing the explosions. I know Outlaw used to make a music friendly HT receiver. But its been a long time since I've heard anything about them You may do something like take the $1k you were willing to spend on acoustic treatments and spend it on a Tube integrated amp instead. Here's an example. Not necessarily my 1st choice. Just an example. There are also some small one man companies which are producing very good tube products for a small price Also keep your eyes open for PrimaLuna integrated which often come up for sale on the used market. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jolida-Fusion-1102-Integrated-Stereo-Tube-Amplifier-Silver-/122608274219?_t...
The OP has already sorted the harshness of his HT system. As for the idea to go for tube amplification, I think that is unwise. Many tube amplifiers do indeed have a warm top end, but that is quite simply because their frequency response is not flat. In short, they function as a very expensive and non-adjustable equalizer. As fh says, one can achieve the same with tone controls or an equalizer.
Its obvious that you dislike tubes. That's fine. Just as obvious is your lack of experience and knowledge of them. The blanket statements below are wrong. Lets put them to rest
The disadvantages of tubes are clear:
Not to tube users. Many have traded multi thousand dollar amps, preamps, etc for cheaper tube amps which sounded better
1 high energy consumption (think of the environment)
Really. Many if not most SS amps are left on continuously. Not the case with tubes. If you are that concerned with the environment you shouldn't have music and video systems which use energy anyway. read a book by candlelight. That's easier on the environment.
2 often very speaker load dependent frequency response (i.e. tube sound where an amplifier should not have a sound of its own.
. What are you talking about....speaker efficiency? Everything has effect on the sound. I can change the sound of the music just by changing the roller ball material in my roller block footers. Wood is warmer than steel. My wife could hear the difference. bet you could too.
3 often pretty bad measured test results
.The worst piece of equipment I ever had, also had the best specs. Your ears are the best measurement
4 Often quite low output
Whats wrong with low output? My Silverline speakers were exhibited with a 7 watt SET amp by the mfg. My amp is 35wpc. I would be glad to have you hear it. AAMOF the best sounding systems I've had were a 45wpc Harmon Kardon and this 35wpc Dynaco. The worst was 200wpc and 250wpc. You need to check into lower watt amps with 90-93db efficienct speakers.
5 expensive
My Latino ST-70 was $1100. it replaced a $4k SS amp. There are many good tube amps for $1500 or under. I bought mine just to check into tubes. It was a keeper and the $4k SS amp was sold. BTW That amp has many great reviews. Its all about synergy.
6 hassle
OK, you got me there. I do have to get up and turn the amp on whereas the SS amp was already on. I've had to replace a rectifier tube and a fuse in the 8 yrs I've had it
When stressed and in a panic mode, the first thing to do is take a deep breath and relax. Start with the simplest fixes and the least expensive. If these don't work then escalate your efforts. There are so many well-meaning people -- all with their own ideas, but taking it all in can only cause confusion unless you take charge. Look through the lists of possibilities and then do your homework on each of these changes. Again, you will get many opinions, but you know what you are after . . . and you can decide what is best for you. Remember, experts have their own biases and their own set of ears. Only you can tell if a fix is doing what you expect it to, so don't be mislead into great expense and frustration . . . and thereby give-up or put yourself into higher debt by those who have no stake in your music appreciation, your goals, or your financial situation. As you build upon one change and see what that does, you can decide if you wish to pursue further changes. Best to you.
Unless the amplifier has a sleep mode (many modern ones do, if only because some countries now mandate them), typical idle consumption of an AB amp is some 50-150 watt. Take 100 watt for a calculation: leave it on all day that is 2400 watt per day, or 875 kilowatt per annum. That is about 13% of the annual electricity consumption (much of it own produced by our solar panels) in our large family home with fridges, dishwasher, washing machine, dryer, electric oven, several computers etc. At Dutch electricity prices 875 KW costs about $200 if bought from a utility. So in my mind electricity consumption is worth considering, both financially and environmentally. Therefore, in my view leaving any amplifier on all day is unwise, and similarly I believe Class A and tubes are about to become extinct species because of their high energy consumption. Misery sleep modes will become far more common soon, and after that Class D will replace Class AB (it already has in many mass market units).
The better the sound system, the more you listen to music, the less you leave the house, the less you drive, the less fuel is used. Zero sum energy consumption. Leave the amps on...
Since you seem to like taking to people who know better than you to task,
Not much I can say to someone who has judged a person's abilities or knowledge without even knowing him. If he does that with people, Imagine the judgement he will put forth about hifi equipment he knows nothing about. You talk good theory. But I doubt your experience base. Do you really think that you have more knowledge and experience than the many thousands or millions of people who know the theory and have been an audiophile for 30-40- 50 yrs and prefer tubes because they think they sound better? Really?
Thanks again for that suggestion. I went back and learned a little more about Roon and I also came across HQPlayer by Signalyst. https://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html
I'm going to investigate this direction. This looks like where I need to go next.
It turns out that "Roon supports Native DSD output on Linux." It's just the Core that doesn't run on Linux, but "two packages are available for Linux: Roon Bridge and Roon Server."
HQPlayer by Signalyst also supports Linux.
I envision that I will use either HQPlayer or Roon, and I'm leaning toward trying HQPlayer first.
I'll start a new thread under "PC Audio" to ask a question about getting started.
I also need to pick hardware that would work with either Roon or HQPlayer.
The HQPlayer page has this helpful hardware list that will be a starting point.
Of those, the Teac NT-503 looks most interesting to me (so far). I like that it has XLR balanced outputs which I can connect directly to my Yamaha P5000S amp.
Which Audiogon forum would be best for asking about these hardware choices (DAC, NAA, etc.)? I'll start a new thread in the appropriate place.
Thanks again to everyone for all the interesting feedback!
The
Sony STR-DN1080 offers all of the features you could want in a modern
receiver -- multiroom music, Chromecast streaming, AirPlay, Dolby Atmos
and a slew of 4K-compliant inputs. Sound quality is excellent,
especially for movies. The user interface is easy to follow, and it is
coupled with a friendly remote.
The Bad
** Sound quality is a little less full than on last year's model, meaning it may not be quite as forgiving of bright speakers. **
When you put all those DACs and decoders plus a multi-channel amplifier on a single chassis and aim for a $500-ish retail price, you're just asking for higher noise and vibration levels, crosstalk, compromised compact power supplies that can't deliver current when you need it, etc.
These are all factors that can compress the dynamics and weaken the bass, making for a brighter-sounding tonal balance.
Do you have a power conditioner? Even a <$100 Furman made a huge difference when I was still using a receiver. Should be easy to find one from somewhere with a return policy.
Do you have a power conditioner? Even a <$100 Furman made a huge difference when I was still using a receiver. Should be easy to find one from somewhere with a return policy.
Yeah similar to that one; if you have even basic EMI/RFI filtering, it probably wouldn't do anything more. Even without, its effectiveness may be minimal depending on where you live. But I found it an ear-saver in my an older apartment complex.
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