Another side-trip. I am refirbishing a large Townshend Sink that will sit between the stand and the 'Noll. The wall stand is up and secure. Dan Meinwald of "Sound Advice" in Long Beach, Calf. is the Townshend go-to-guy. He kindly provided me with all the information I need to complete the Sink project. Thanks Dan for your advice ! |
I just completed the Towshend project days / weeks ahead of schedule . Dan was taken back. For my fellow AG'ers I am willing to detail the refirb project provided I recieve 5 emails of interest. My sink was an early unit . Many are out there teetering on the brink or in closets. I understand there operation & I am willing to start a new thread on there repair . Dan is a world class expert on all sinks and even he had not thought of the manner in which I referbed mine. Should I not receive 5 emails requesting a thread , that's ok I'll keep the information to my self. Your email is a vote. Let me know. |
Well, at least one of you is interested ... Ok I'll start a new thread on the Townshend Sink refirb project soon. |
A little math is in order. Now, my tonearm wireing is too short to connect to my Preamp from its new location. RATS ! Twice over. I just luged out 31 ga. 9x9 copper via Nisson Japan, I scored 20 years ago. Back to work... |
Thank goodness for "rats". Rather than another tear down , I relied on suggestions contained in Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound". I then repositioned the Table just outside of the room where it sits atop a refirbished Townshend Turntable Sink that sits upon a Target Wall Stand. The equipment rack was re-aligned to sit side by side facing into the Listening Room. Next to the equipment rack sits a solid oak shirt & tie cabinet that's been converted to hold audio supplies. The SP 10 MKI (late edition) controller sits atop a 4x15x18" maple block, over the top shelf of the Target Stand that comes with a spiked underside that itself rests on solid brass inverted cups to seat the 4 spikes in the cross-member of the 5 shelf stand itself that has been modified with a special dampner to suppress "ringing" without destroying the harmonic decay inherient in the stands. Each shelf is lightly dampted in the corners as are all spikes in the set-up. The Target Stand sits upon a Karastan carpet square (@$50 per yd. retail) , as does the supply cabinet. I scored the squares from a local carpet shop all bound for a handshake. Sometimes "Rats" are good. |
Charlie---If you need some tonearm wire--AMsystems or Phoenix wire sells medical grade teflon coated silver wire that will work well and can be cut to length. It can be all the way to 0.001 diameter (i did 0.003) and is wonderful if you are handy with solder iron. Makes a big difference and the thin wire helps from a tonearm standpoint. I tried the thicker wire but did not work well because it impacted the free play of the tonearm. Piedpiper warned me about that and he was right. |
Oilmanmojo: Many thanks for the information. I hope wrote clearly on the set-up. Smith recommends several ideas that I incorperated into the room that is far from done. I highly recommend his book. My "rats" take was my version of "lemons make lemonaide". Charlie |
Checked out the sites. Thank You ! More to come , Charlie |
I have an Ariadne that was recently purchased for me by my wife for our anniversary! Anyway, the previous owner had owned the table since new and apparently this table was used at a Chicago CES almost 20 years ago. He said he bought the table directly from Bob Dilger. The owner said that this table was plug and play and it rarely required adjustment. Anyway, I took the turntable home and was able to quickly set it up (1/2 hour) and it played amazingly well for a couple of hours. I put on an old Grado Reference Sonata and I never heard it sound better. I was really captivated by the performance of this turntable.
Then the original silent pump overheated and no longer works! I can't believe it!
I called Lloyd Walker who told me that it was a 1/6 horsepower Refrigerator compressor with the coolant drained and with oil poured in as a lubricant. The pump has wooden decorative exterior cover. The pump itself is attached to a small air chamber and there are 2 larger air chambers (the very large one was apparently called a Scud by Bob Dilger) that are connected by 500 feet of hose. Anyway, my question is if anyone else has replaced this pump with a modern equivalent refrigerator compressor? Any other suggestions regarding air pumps. My version has the 50 pound platter.
Also the original owner said he never used the oil trough because it was not worth the trouble and sonically it really didn't make that much of a difference. Would like to know your opinions of the oil trough. Bob |
Baranyi--Not sure if anyone ever called a maplenoll a plug and play unit:>) However, i do think the maplenoll ariadne is one of the better tables out there. I currently own the white ariadne reference, grey ariadne signature, and the apollo heavily modified by Lloyd Walker.
Your first question, i changed out my air pump to a JUNAIR compressor back in 2006 and have not looked back. The compressor is one used a lot in the medical/dental field so is pretty quiet, reliable, and clean smelling (not always the case with the original pumps). If you look on this string you will see MEDO and WISA pumps also mentioned. I like the Junair because it has a rather large surge tank and great pressure control regulator that matches well with my air system. Clean, pulse free air at a pressure your arm likes is key to keeping these machines happy. The Junair uses a synthetic oil that is odorless and does not bleed off very much even with heavy use.
Concerning oil trough, i find it is a very good tool to get the utmost out of the system. it tends to solidify the bass in my opinion. I personally do not like the tonearms that came with the maplenoll and have modified both the ariadne to carbon fiber arms and relocated the oil bath to directly below the air spindle using a tapered pen similar to current walker tables. This way, the mess of the oil trough is eliminated. Its a little complicated to do this modification but i get a maplenoll with on the fly VTA adjustment, better dampening of the arm, and a stiffer assembly with the carbon fiber arm and headshell. There is a difference with using the oil trough versus not.
Hope this helps |
Well, Baranyi brought the Ariadne from me, and for me it was indeed plug and play. Set it up on a stable shelf, and just play your music. No tweaking or fiddling involved. It sat in my music room for 10 years, as was just as it was when I set it up when Baranyi acquired it.
My oil trough notions were rooted in a blind listening test (as per usual), back in the day. We played the same track with and without the trough, and didn't hear a bit of difference, though one person claimed the treble was smoother, after asking "Was that the oil one?" It did help stiff-cantilevered Grados like the TLZ track a bit better, but that was about it.
I think you can fiddle with these things and MAKE them more complicated than they need to be. But the beauty of them for me is that they are big, heavy, inert and relatively fiddle-resistant. Set it and forget it.
Your mods are nice ideas. Carbon fiber linear tracking arm? Pretty slick. Would love to see pictures.
I think that Lloyd Walker's work is the ultimate realization of these turntables, and I probably don't ever want to hear one, since I'd rather spend $35k on a car or something. He's brilliant. |
Is there anyone out there that can provide the measurements for an Ariadne Signature where the sub platter is driven by the belt ? |
Still wondering about buying another refrigerator compressor to replace my bad compressor. I had an HVAC person on another website say that draining the coolant (R22) would cause the compressor to fail. This dies not seem to have been a problem with all the Maplenoll Super quiet pumps that have functioned for so long. Any thoughts? |
Refridgerant compressors like those used by Maplenoll are lubricated by oil, not freon. Freon is not a lubricant. Most HVAC guys know that they need to add oil to a new install and/or pump replacement. It's HVAC 101.
I'd strongly suggest going to a rotary vane oil less pump myself. Near zero pulsation and no worries about seperating oil from the air feeding your table. Open the scud and replace the foam. The foam has likely seen oil, as that it is the nature of inexpensive oil lubed refridgerant pumps. Or, just build new ones.
Let's face it, we want to feed the arm tube and platter with the cleanest, pulse free air, right?
Oikmanmojo gave you a wonderful recommendation. I've used a Techumseh pulse free rotary vane pump on my Airiadne Signature for years. And while the multiple stages of oil and water seperators are still in place, they don't require anywhere near the maintenance that they used to.
I have added several extra air tanks, too.
Have fun. Bruce Thigpen never got the respect that he deserved for this table. |
Brian is right about the superquiet pumps used with the original maplenoll. It is a "lube" oil, most likely Mobil one or equivalent. I do not like this set up because the refrigeration compressor does heat up and entrain oil throughout the system. This is also one of the reasons some maplenolls put a burnt oil smell into your listening room. if you are going to repair the existing pump. I would recommend draining and replacing the oil with a modern synthetic oil or true compressor oil Most of these are odorless and are more stable to heat.
Again he is right on point about the arm. It likes clean, smooth flowing air. I also recommend flushing the airbearing sleeve with isopropyl alcohol to clean out the ports if you are having any sticking problems
I like the concept of the oil-less compressors but the two i tried (not the one Brian recommended)were just too loud for my taste.
Finally to Markim, I am traveling today, but if you are looking for the belt measurement, i will post tommorrow once i return. I have the signature set up and can get that measurement pretty quickly for you |
Oilmanjoe,
Which Juneair did you buy? |
Oilman: LOL, The nice thing about a wife's sewing room is that the buzz of an oil less rotary vane pump is quiter than the sewing machine. :) I have a very understanding wife.
Which Junaire model did use and do you have any specs? CFM @ PSI, etc?
You are spot on with the oil smell and the need to flush that sticky mess from your air bearings and air line with isopropyl. Cleanliness is essential. I'd recommend installing new air line after flushing the bearings and making new "scuds" with PVC tubing or buy a couple of 5 gallon paint pots, or those 5 gallon air tanks without the compressor that youy can buy at O'Reillys or the Pepe Boys for $30 each.
My friend Jack bought his Signature from Mark Schneider at Music Direct. He had a plastics fabricator build him a plexiglass cover which covers the entire table, arm and all, so that his arm tube doesn't get any dust on it, while not in use. Probably not a bad idea. |
Jun Air has got several models including an oil less pump. I chose the 6-15 model because of the low noise threshold (40 db), pressure 125psig (found my air really likes 40 psig) and the pressure regulation/surge tank. The volume it produces is about 37 cfm, far more than needed but this means the unit only runs maybe 30% of the time. The pressure regulation off the surge tank is very good with no noticeable drop in pressure when machine is not running. This particular model is used by i believe Pluto electronics on their airbearing table.
I have cleaned the damping tubes and replaced with new fiber and replaced air lines as part of my compressor change out. Jun Air uses a compressor oil that is odorless and does not flash over during operation to any extent. Condensed water is a bigger problem due to the humidity
good tip on the cover, i really need to get one.
good luck baranyi, keep us informed on your progress. Love to share ideas about these great tables |
I also bought the highest quality regulators that I could find, with the thought that less regulator flutter would equate to less air pulsation. I discarded the PVC plastic "scuds" with air tanks, one large 15 gallon tank back where I store the air pump and the other, a new 5 gallon "airpot" just behind the turntable stand. I'd also purchased the best quality water seperators and dessicant driers at the output of each tank, too.
One warning: with 15 gallons of airtank storage, you'll need to turn on your air compressor 5 or 10 minutes before listening, but the extra storage area made an audible difference.
Oilman: 37 cfm? That thing must be the size of a car. :) |
oops, 37 liters/min (1.31 cfm), its actually pretty small with the exception of the tank. I really like the large air tank, got to help the stability of the air system. |
any recommended source for a round belt I believe is aprox 1/16" or 3/32" x 38"? circumference drive belt that wraps around lead platter on Ariadne to plinth pulley. Let me know if measurement is different and best source. Thanks |
the ariadne belts are usually flat, but LPgear might have a round belt of that dimension |
Life has gotten in the way and I finally acquired a Silentaire 20A pump for my Ariadne. I hooked it up this morning with a friend and the Silentaire could not keep up 45 PSI in the turntable. This is obviously ridiculous and there must be a leak somewhere. I wonder if this is how I fried my original silent pump. My question is if you typically can hear air flow under the turntable? I definitely can hear this but really can't isolate where it is coming from. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. I still have all the original Maplenoll filtering scuds are air chambers. |
sorry, took to long to get back to you. couple of points. First if you hear air from the bottom then you are either leaking at the connection or you have too high of pressure at the platter. One way to optimize is put a needle valve on the platter and close it. At this point there is no air going to the platter. See if you can hear any. There should only be air going to the arm. you should be able to keep 45psig with the arm alone. Assuming this is the case, turn on your motor and slowly open the air until the platter lifts. You might have to spin the platter with your hand to get it started. Listen for a rub. if it is not rubbing, lower the air until you hear a slight rub. then raise the air slightly to the rub sound stops. remember the arm can siphon a lot of air away from the arm.The needle valve will help you fix this.
Finally make sure you are perfect level. If not, it takes a lot more air to float the platter.also, make sure you clean the arm spindle and arm bearing housing. You will find that you can lower the air some by doing that also. |
I’ve just acquired a grey base Ariadne Signature with QP. I would like to learn what to look for in order to assess the condition so I can plot the changes needed to get this table reach it’s potential.
through the kind help from Scott Leventhal I’ve got the correct owners manual with some recommendations. The thread has folks (like Crem1 and Oilmanmojo) push this to greater highs still. For instance:
“Concerning oil trough, i find it is a very good tool to get the utmost out of the system. it tends to solidify the bass in my opinion. I personally do not like the tonearms that came with the maplenoll and have modified both the ariadne to carbon fiber arms and relocated the oil bath to directly below the air spindle using a tapered pen similar to current walker tables. This way, the mess of the oil trough is eliminated. Its a little complicated to do this modification but i get a maplenollwith on the fly VTA adjustment, better dampening of the arm, and a stiffer assembly with the carbon fiber arm and headshell. There is a difference with using the oil trough versus not.”
Plus there is talk about outboarding the motor and L Walkers suggestion about the Arm & Bearing, anything to helps get this table back running properly would be greatly appreciated - thanks!
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I had a Maplenoll Ariadne Special Edition with 50 lb platter back in the late 90s. Here are a few tips. When I first set mine up the large metal piece that is part of the platter support didn’t fit right and I had to order another one. I used 500 feet of air tubing with 2 air buffers and high quality pump. I isolated the Ariadne on a 1 Hz iso platform that included 100 lb of ballast. I used an oil bath for the tonearm with the paddle just barely immersed in the oil. I had a Grado cartridge and naked Quad 57s on Arcicci stands and upgraded power cords. All tube electronics with regulated everything, including filament supplies. |
Hi,
Does anybody know of how to clean up the plenum please? Also, what materials does the manufacture put inside?
It looks completely enclosed and there is no way to open it up to clean inside.
Thanks,
Calvin
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