Hi,
Does anybody know of how to clean up the plenum please? Also, what materials does the manufacture put inside?
It looks completely enclosed and there is no way to open it up to clean inside.
Thanks,
Calvin
|
I had a Maplenoll Ariadne Special Edition with 50 lb platter back in the late 90s. Here are a few tips. When I first set mine up the large metal piece that is part of the platter support didn’t fit right and I had to order another one. I used 500 feet of air tubing with 2 air buffers and high quality pump. I isolated the Ariadne on a 1 Hz iso platform that included 100 lb of ballast. I used an oil bath for the tonearm with the paddle just barely immersed in the oil. I had a Grado cartridge and naked Quad 57s on Arcicci stands and upgraded power cords. All tube electronics with regulated everything, including filament supplies. |
I’ve just acquired a grey base Ariadne Signature with QP. I would like to learn what to look for in order to assess the condition so I can plot the changes needed to get this table reach it’s potential.
through the kind help from Scott Leventhal I’ve got the correct owners manual with some recommendations. The thread has folks (like Crem1 and Oilmanmojo) push this to greater highs still. For instance:
“Concerning oil trough, i find it is a very good tool to get the utmost out of the system. it tends to solidify the bass in my opinion. I personally do not like the tonearms that came with the maplenoll and have modified both the ariadne to carbon fiber arms and relocated the oil bath to directly below the air spindle using a tapered pen similar to current walker tables. This way, the mess of the oil trough is eliminated. Its a little complicated to do this modification but i get a maplenollwith on the fly VTA adjustment, better dampening of the arm, and a stiffer assembly with the carbon fiber arm and headshell. There is a difference with using the oil trough versus not.”
Plus there is talk about outboarding the motor and L Walkers suggestion about the Arm & Bearing, anything to helps get this table back running properly would be greatly appreciated - thanks!
|
sorry, took to long to get back to you. couple of points. First if you hear air from the bottom then you are either leaking at the connection or you have too high of pressure at the platter. One way to optimize is put a needle valve on the platter and close it. At this point there is no air going to the platter. See if you can hear any. There should only be air going to the arm. you should be able to keep 45psig with the arm alone. Assuming this is the case, turn on your motor and slowly open the air until the platter lifts. You might have to spin the platter with your hand to get it started. Listen for a rub. if it is not rubbing, lower the air until you hear a slight rub. then raise the air slightly to the rub sound stops. remember the arm can siphon a lot of air away from the arm.The needle valve will help you fix this.
Finally make sure you are perfect level. If not, it takes a lot more air to float the platter.also, make sure you clean the arm spindle and arm bearing housing. You will find that you can lower the air some by doing that also. |
Life has gotten in the way and I finally acquired a Silentaire 20A pump for my Ariadne. I hooked it up this morning with a friend and the Silentaire could not keep up 45 PSI in the turntable. This is obviously ridiculous and there must be a leak somewhere. I wonder if this is how I fried my original silent pump. My question is if you typically can hear air flow under the turntable? I definitely can hear this but really can't isolate where it is coming from. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. I still have all the original Maplenoll filtering scuds are air chambers. |
the ariadne belts are usually flat, but LPgear might have a round belt of that dimension |
any recommended source for a round belt I believe is aprox 1/16" or 3/32" x 38"? circumference drive belt that wraps around lead platter on Ariadne to plinth pulley. Let me know if measurement is different and best source. Thanks |
oops, 37 liters/min (1.31 cfm), its actually pretty small with the exception of the tank. I really like the large air tank, got to help the stability of the air system. |
I also bought the highest quality regulators that I could find, with the thought that less regulator flutter would equate to less air pulsation. I discarded the PVC plastic "scuds" with air tanks, one large 15 gallon tank back where I store the air pump and the other, a new 5 gallon "airpot" just behind the turntable stand. I'd also purchased the best quality water seperators and dessicant driers at the output of each tank, too.
One warning: with 15 gallons of airtank storage, you'll need to turn on your air compressor 5 or 10 minutes before listening, but the extra storage area made an audible difference.
Oilman: 37 cfm? That thing must be the size of a car. :) |
Jun Air has got several models including an oil less pump. I chose the 6-15 model because of the low noise threshold (40 db), pressure 125psig (found my air really likes 40 psig) and the pressure regulation/surge tank. The volume it produces is about 37 cfm, far more than needed but this means the unit only runs maybe 30% of the time. The pressure regulation off the surge tank is very good with no noticeable drop in pressure when machine is not running. This particular model is used by i believe Pluto electronics on their airbearing table.
I have cleaned the damping tubes and replaced with new fiber and replaced air lines as part of my compressor change out. Jun Air uses a compressor oil that is odorless and does not flash over during operation to any extent. Condensed water is a bigger problem due to the humidity
good tip on the cover, i really need to get one.
good luck baranyi, keep us informed on your progress. Love to share ideas about these great tables |
Oilman: LOL, The nice thing about a wife's sewing room is that the buzz of an oil less rotary vane pump is quiter than the sewing machine. :) I have a very understanding wife.
Which Junaire model did use and do you have any specs? CFM @ PSI, etc?
You are spot on with the oil smell and the need to flush that sticky mess from your air bearings and air line with isopropyl. Cleanliness is essential. I'd recommend installing new air line after flushing the bearings and making new "scuds" with PVC tubing or buy a couple of 5 gallon paint pots, or those 5 gallon air tanks without the compressor that youy can buy at O'Reillys or the Pepe Boys for $30 each.
My friend Jack bought his Signature from Mark Schneider at Music Direct. He had a plastics fabricator build him a plexiglass cover which covers the entire table, arm and all, so that his arm tube doesn't get any dust on it, while not in use. Probably not a bad idea. |
Oilmanjoe,
Which Juneair did you buy? |
Brian is right about the superquiet pumps used with the original maplenoll. It is a "lube" oil, most likely Mobil one or equivalent. I do not like this set up because the refrigeration compressor does heat up and entrain oil throughout the system. This is also one of the reasons some maplenolls put a burnt oil smell into your listening room. if you are going to repair the existing pump. I would recommend draining and replacing the oil with a modern synthetic oil or true compressor oil Most of these are odorless and are more stable to heat.
Again he is right on point about the arm. It likes clean, smooth flowing air. I also recommend flushing the airbearing sleeve with isopropyl alcohol to clean out the ports if you are having any sticking problems
I like the concept of the oil-less compressors but the two i tried (not the one Brian recommended)were just too loud for my taste.
Finally to Markim, I am traveling today, but if you are looking for the belt measurement, i will post tommorrow once i return. I have the signature set up and can get that measurement pretty quickly for you |
Refridgerant compressors like those used by Maplenoll are lubricated by oil, not freon. Freon is not a lubricant. Most HVAC guys know that they need to add oil to a new install and/or pump replacement. It's HVAC 101.
I'd strongly suggest going to a rotary vane oil less pump myself. Near zero pulsation and no worries about seperating oil from the air feeding your table. Open the scud and replace the foam. The foam has likely seen oil, as that it is the nature of inexpensive oil lubed refridgerant pumps. Or, just build new ones.
Let's face it, we want to feed the arm tube and platter with the cleanest, pulse free air, right?
Oikmanmojo gave you a wonderful recommendation. I've used a Techumseh pulse free rotary vane pump on my Airiadne Signature for years. And while the multiple stages of oil and water seperators are still in place, they don't require anywhere near the maintenance that they used to.
I have added several extra air tanks, too.
Have fun. Bruce Thigpen never got the respect that he deserved for this table. |
Still wondering about buying another refrigerator compressor to replace my bad compressor. I had an HVAC person on another website say that draining the coolant (R22) would cause the compressor to fail. This dies not seem to have been a problem with all the Maplenoll Super quiet pumps that have functioned for so long. Any thoughts? |
Is there anyone out there that can provide the measurements for an Ariadne Signature where the sub platter is driven by the belt ? |
Well, Baranyi brought the Ariadne from me, and for me it was indeed plug and play. Set it up on a stable shelf, and just play your music. No tweaking or fiddling involved. It sat in my music room for 10 years, as was just as it was when I set it up when Baranyi acquired it.
My oil trough notions were rooted in a blind listening test (as per usual), back in the day. We played the same track with and without the trough, and didn't hear a bit of difference, though one person claimed the treble was smoother, after asking "Was that the oil one?" It did help stiff-cantilevered Grados like the TLZ track a bit better, but that was about it.
I think you can fiddle with these things and MAKE them more complicated than they need to be. But the beauty of them for me is that they are big, heavy, inert and relatively fiddle-resistant. Set it and forget it.
Your mods are nice ideas. Carbon fiber linear tracking arm? Pretty slick. Would love to see pictures.
I think that Lloyd Walker's work is the ultimate realization of these turntables, and I probably don't ever want to hear one, since I'd rather spend $35k on a car or something. He's brilliant. |
Baranyi--Not sure if anyone ever called a maplenoll a plug and play unit:>) However, i do think the maplenoll ariadne is one of the better tables out there. I currently own the white ariadne reference, grey ariadne signature, and the apollo heavily modified by Lloyd Walker.
Your first question, i changed out my air pump to a JUNAIR compressor back in 2006 and have not looked back. The compressor is one used a lot in the medical/dental field so is pretty quiet, reliable, and clean smelling (not always the case with the original pumps). If you look on this string you will see MEDO and WISA pumps also mentioned. I like the Junair because it has a rather large surge tank and great pressure control regulator that matches well with my air system. Clean, pulse free air at a pressure your arm likes is key to keeping these machines happy. The Junair uses a synthetic oil that is odorless and does not bleed off very much even with heavy use.
Concerning oil trough, i find it is a very good tool to get the utmost out of the system. it tends to solidify the bass in my opinion. I personally do not like the tonearms that came with the maplenoll and have modified both the ariadne to carbon fiber arms and relocated the oil bath to directly below the air spindle using a tapered pen similar to current walker tables. This way, the mess of the oil trough is eliminated. Its a little complicated to do this modification but i get a maplenoll with on the fly VTA adjustment, better dampening of the arm, and a stiffer assembly with the carbon fiber arm and headshell. There is a difference with using the oil trough versus not.
Hope this helps |
I have an Ariadne that was recently purchased for me by my wife for our anniversary! Anyway, the previous owner had owned the table since new and apparently this table was used at a Chicago CES almost 20 years ago. He said he bought the table directly from Bob Dilger. The owner said that this table was plug and play and it rarely required adjustment. Anyway, I took the turntable home and was able to quickly set it up (1/2 hour) and it played amazingly well for a couple of hours. I put on an old Grado Reference Sonata and I never heard it sound better. I was really captivated by the performance of this turntable.
Then the original silent pump overheated and no longer works! I can't believe it!
I called Lloyd Walker who told me that it was a 1/6 horsepower Refrigerator compressor with the coolant drained and with oil poured in as a lubricant. The pump has wooden decorative exterior cover. The pump itself is attached to a small air chamber and there are 2 larger air chambers (the very large one was apparently called a Scud by Bob Dilger) that are connected by 500 feet of hose. Anyway, my question is if anyone else has replaced this pump with a modern equivalent refrigerator compressor? Any other suggestions regarding air pumps. My version has the 50 pound platter.
Also the original owner said he never used the oil trough because it was not worth the trouble and sonically it really didn't make that much of a difference. Would like to know your opinions of the oil trough. Bob |
Checked out the sites. Thank You ! More to come , Charlie |
Oilmanmojo: Many thanks for the information. I hope wrote clearly on the set-up. Smith recommends several ideas that I incorperated into the room that is far from done. I highly recommend his book. My "rats" take was my version of "lemons make lemonaide". Charlie |
Charlie---If you need some tonearm wire--AMsystems or Phoenix wire sells medical grade teflon coated silver wire that will work well and can be cut to length. It can be all the way to 0.001 diameter (i did 0.003) and is wonderful if you are handy with solder iron. Makes a big difference and the thin wire helps from a tonearm standpoint. I tried the thicker wire but did not work well because it impacted the free play of the tonearm. Piedpiper warned me about that and he was right. |
Thank goodness for "rats". Rather than another tear down , I relied on suggestions contained in Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound". I then repositioned the Table just outside of the room where it sits atop a refirbished Townshend Turntable Sink that sits upon a Target Wall Stand. The equipment rack was re-aligned to sit side by side facing into the Listening Room. Next to the equipment rack sits a solid oak shirt & tie cabinet that's been converted to hold audio supplies. The SP 10 MKI (late edition) controller sits atop a 4x15x18" maple block, over the top shelf of the Target Stand that comes with a spiked underside that itself rests on solid brass inverted cups to seat the 4 spikes in the cross-member of the 5 shelf stand itself that has been modified with a special dampner to suppress "ringing" without destroying the harmonic decay inherient in the stands. Each shelf is lightly dampted in the corners as are all spikes in the set-up. The Target Stand sits upon a Karastan carpet square (@$50 per yd. retail) , as does the supply cabinet. I scored the squares from a local carpet shop all bound for a handshake. Sometimes "Rats" are good. |
A little math is in order. Now, my tonearm wireing is too short to connect to my Preamp from its new location. RATS ! Twice over. I just luged out 31 ga. 9x9 copper via Nisson Japan, I scored 20 years ago. Back to work... |
Well, at least one of you is interested ... Ok I'll start a new thread on the Townshend Sink refirb project soon. |
I just completed the Towshend project days / weeks ahead of schedule . Dan was taken back. For my fellow AG'ers I am willing to detail the refirb project provided I recieve 5 emails of interest. My sink was an early unit . Many are out there teetering on the brink or in closets. I understand there operation & I am willing to start a new thread on there repair . Dan is a world class expert on all sinks and even he had not thought of the manner in which I referbed mine. Should I not receive 5 emails requesting a thread , that's ok I'll keep the information to my self. Your email is a vote. Let me know. |
Another side-trip. I am refirbishing a large Townshend Sink that will sit between the stand and the 'Noll. The wall stand is up and secure. Dan Meinwald of "Sound Advice" in Long Beach, Calf. is the Townshend go-to-guy. He kindly provided me with all the information I need to complete the Sink project. Thanks Dan for your advice ! |
I'm putting a TT stand on a wall; the 'Noll is on hold for a couple more days(I hope).
I'm applying the suggestions/ideas contained in the book "Get Better Sound" to the basement audio room. Smith has the knowledge to set-up any system in any room: He is a mind bender. While he does not recommend reading his book in the traditional way, cover to cover , I couldn't put down. Check out the web site www.getbettersound.com for info. |
The tape is a high quality , micro-spore 3/8" w/ sticky on one side. The interesting feature is that it can be depressed into the smallest spaces and dampens better than any other tape product I know. What I did was cut off enought to wrap around the motor using popcicle sticks to position the tape in the motor cut out with the sticky side out . Just amazing what it did for motor noise. I wraped the tri-mount sides even a greater reduction. I hope that it will work for you as it has for me. |
|
O: Forward your home address via email & I'll send you some. Cheers, Charlie |
Tell me more about this dampening tape. This sounds interesting. Sounds like u use to damping the motor. how and where to apply the tape. I like the idea of an external plinth but if i can get 80% of that effect without moving the motor, that would be an option to consider. On your room treatment, are u using wall treatment? I know its off topic, but am interested in that aspect of sound improvement also. |
Oilmanmojo : At this jucture all that is left is to re-arrange the audio room , no small task. I'm applying Jim Smith's techniques from "Get Better Sound", to extract as much from the room as possible.
All my gear has been checked out by Eric Falkenham (410-467-3620). Eric is a former trouble shooter for Westinghouse's Airport Unit. This man knows tubes and tube circuits. Without Eric I would have gotten out of tube equipment , with him I'll keep on truck'in.
Things are starting to come together. As an aside I can't believe what a difference foam damping tape made on noise levels of the inboard motor. The stuff was forwarded by the G&E Company. I have a couple of other places I want to apply the tape. So far a vibration killer. |
Charlie--Cant wait to hear your feedback on your mods. I totally agree with the balance impact on the "spin rate" on the noll. With the heavier platter it made a tremendous impact. I am having that done to my older table platter. |
Update: Another round of tests of the electrical system & air control system have been completed. No leaks and all are fuctioning at or beyond my expectations. The tonearm is operating with a silky feel; the air bearings spin as never before. No one I approached had any interest in developing a retro-fit of the air bearing plates so I'm stuck with the center pin system. Because of that, the free spin rate has limits unless that technical issue can be resolved. 8" diameter is just that not 11". Perhaps I am within "shouting distance or less" to the mega-buck spin rates but limitations to do with the initial air bearing design will await to be conquered by another. The rebalancing of the lead platter increases the spin rate at the cost of a ounce or so of lead: No big deal. I feel assured the spin rate is greater now than when Ari was "stock" 'Noll.
The re-painting of the exterior air manifold and several selected parts improves the over-all finish & look. I have a feeling that when one views those pics , the black-on-white or the black-on-grey specks ,era will be replaced with professional re-painting.
This 'Noll has been inspected; cleaned , damped , sanded , balanced, parts replaced or re-manufactured , re-wired & polished as required. The table has had a complete make-over from the-inside-out.
The above was accomplished after collecting 20+years of reviews , comments, interviews and DIY suggestions: Reading and re-reading applying every useful suggestion I could gleam from the written page. And, may I say judgement calls by yours truly.
Soon I will know if all of this was worth the effort. I won't hold back whatever the outcome. |
Readers : I am re-assembling the Ari-Noll. The outboard motor will come later as will a different tonearm. I have reopened some cut-outs to accept the motor & electrical components. Sota commerical vibration/insulation strips surround the motor dampening it down tobe near inaudable. All the rubber including the gromets have been re-placed a second time with a softer rubber compound. The tonearm has been re-wired with Cardas 33 ga. Next, I will re-tube , attach the PSI gages and attach the Air Control System that has been sucessfully tested to 50 PSI , 4/5 PSI to the platter, the remaining to the air bearing for the tonearm. Much to do before play time. |
Oilman , Try Meguiars "Quik" interior detailer on all parts I formerly recommended. Lightyears ahead. Makes the 'Noll float & glide like never before. Silkey feel especially the edges of the bearing plates. Very quite operation. All from a spray or two of Meguiars. Just spray & gently polish with any lint-free cloth. |
i kinda got out of the audio scene for a while and sold the tables.the condo where i used to live is still vibrating from the bass output of the maplenoll table.thunder.LOL |
chetatkins--do you still spin them, or have you moved on. Seems a lot of maplenoll owners move on to other players. I enjoy tweaking and the compressor issue does not bother me since i have optimized it. I have the owners manual from this last purchase. |
original owners manual....i have an original owners manual if your interested.in my old system i had 2 maplenoll signature tt,s with the 100 pound platters. |
Tom, I have a feeling you will be sucessful. I look forward to viewing some shots of the plates when they have been refirbished. All the best. |
Charlie---good question that i am not 100% sure that it can be. Some of the information on various forums based on actual discussions with Dilger would suggest difficulty in doing it. In fact one string suggested that dilger had many of the plates originally produce and the reject rate was tremendous because of warping and trueness. Others have warned about cracking during polishing or grinding of a slightly warped plate. Talking to the machine shop that trued my platter(just recieved it today), he says he can handle it. His work on the platter was exceptional. I mounted it tonite and wow, it looks sharp. I have noticed an improvement in background noise with this table compared to my other ariadne.
Again, back to your original question, i will be able to report back in a few weeks on its success or not. The ones i have are not severely warped so the shop feels that a hard polishing will true up the platter. They have experience with lots of different materials including ceramics so they feel they can handle it. I will also have the shop bore 8 air ports on the platter. I will develop a plate that will install on the bottom to serve as an airplenum that will feed the 8 ports. The holes will be in two concentric circles to cover the entire width of the bearing surface. |
Tom, Is it possible that the old set of plates with warp be corrected and trued ? |
I should get my platter tommorrow:^0 i will lose about 1/8 in on diameter to get it trued up. But it is supposed to be perfectly balanced. I will soon see. The theory around the multiple ports on the bearing is similar to the one on the arm spindle that keeps the spindle centered. Key is drilling the port about 1/1000 in. I have found a machine shop who can do this for me. Not sure that the project would be commercially viable since the procedure will cost a little money. Still got to design the manifold or well to ensure each port sees the same air pressure. Got a couple ideas, but nothing specifically designed yet. The existing design should still work well if the platter is balanced and the bearing plate is true. You brought up that point earlier and that is the problem with the old set of plates that was in the box of parts. |
Tom, I look forward to your future posts. Glad to know the teflon pin works so well; your idea of multiable ports does appear to resolve many issues. |
Charlie
Thanks for the tips. I have already cleaned the spindle and the air openings/chamber using a good solvent and carefully dried everything. I have not applied an exterior finish as you have suggested, but i will try that. I have notices one of the spare parts in the box of items was an airbearing tube that was not the typical aluminum finish but some type of applied finish that is much smoother than some of the other bearing tubes. great idea. I am still awaiting the balance of the platter. I know that will improve the effectiveness of the system. I am toying with an idea to try on one of the old bearing plates i have. You can improve the effectiveness of the airbearing plate by going to multiple air ports versus the single source. Not an easy task because you have to carefully control the orifice size of the port but if done properly, you could improve the balance of the system using 6 or 8 orifices. The platter dynamics become more stable and the "stiffness" of the airbear improves and less wobble occurs. (at least that is what i think i am learning from studying the theory around the airbearing). If it doesnt work, i still havent lost much because the plates have to be polished and resurfaced anyway. I know I have promised some pics and I will get some soon. Thanks again for the support and tips. By the way, the teflon centerpin is working pretty good. |
Oilmanmojo , I have been reading your Apollo adventure with great interest. I have a few suggestions for your consideration ; in no particular order :
1. Clean the air manifold: Removing the manifold and cleaning the airbearing with a oil removing solution does wonders for air flow and arm stabitily.Clean the plith while your at it.
2. Do not underestimate the effect of filling the spindle tube with a "light" dampter. I used a Home Depot product that is sold to fill open spaces around windows. Very easy to apply & interms of dampting scores a 3-4 out out of 10 , an excellent way to improve the spindle w/o excessive dampting & weight.
3. Before re-assembly,lightly spray & polish parts, such as, the spindle, air manifold's inside air bearing ; the inside of top / bottom air bearing plates with Eagle 1 Spray Detailer ; its available almost anywhere auto parts are sold. The result has to be experienced to be believed: All air bearing parts operate so quitely , arm stability is improved.
4. A light damping the bottom of air bearing plate's underside & replacing worn or hardened rubber , returns the pliths performace to like-new or better. You are also assured the bottom bearing is flat ,secure & will not excessively "ring". I feel the top plate must revolve on a "lightly" dampened lower plate to bring out that last breath of air in certian recordings. "Light" is all you need. Again, this has to be experienced to appreciate the difference.
5. Test the platter & air bearing plates for "trueness" before going any further with truing/sanding the platter to assure neither is so out of round the repair may be out of reach.
6. When replacing the center pin use a soft wooden dowel to push the old pin. Then, gently tap in the new pin to seat slightly higher than where the former pin rested. Next, put the top plate into the new center pin , gently push down,by hand, onto the top plate to "seat" the center pin. I have learned that my failure to seat the center pin as outlined can result in "air swoosh". Only that gentle push by hand seats the pin.
Wishing you grest sucess. |
|
Piedpiper, found a supplier that can deliver sheets of corian. Still looking for the exact or closest match. Size of sheet varies. The thickness of the corian is 1/2 inch but you can sandwich many layers together then drill out the motor enclosure. I am still debating on how to do the plinth. Got be heavy enough to be stable. The site is Solidsurface.com. On a separate note, having to go back and rebalance the platter. Takes too much air to float and a pretty good wave as the platter spins. Thanks for your thoughts on the damping. I may start by just running the wires in tube first. As for my oil dampening system. Its similar to what the original maplenoll design, just below the spindle instead of the headshell. I also found adjusting the viscosity of the oil was key to finding the right amount of dampening. My refinery makes a broad set of oils so i get to experiment some. If you are interested, i could sent you a set of different viscosities to try out. I am looking at a new headshell. I used the yamamoto wood (its first class) but will try a graphite headshell. I have a block of solid graphite that i am trimming down into a prototype headshell. I am also pondering an airbearing modification to improve the platter. As you know the airbearing arm has multiple ports to keep the airspindle floating and aligned. most of the new state of the art airbearings used in the positioning field have multiple ports on their rotory bearing plates. Critical parameter is equal pressuredrop through each nozzle. But the multiple nozzles will stabilize the platter with much less air flow and less noise. More to come on this subject |
Let us know if and when you find a good source for the granite look corian as I also have plans for ancillary plinths, for the arm and motor.
Also, beware of too much arm dampening both from the stand point of over damping per se and as regards unnecessary dielectric losses. |
