Bill,
Well said, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for measurements to shed any light, just look at amps, wire, speakers etc. What proof?
If you don't hear a difference then just leave things as they are (simple solution). If you do hear definite improvement as Bill does then you rejoice and make what ever changes are necessary. Either outcome you'll be happy. Ears trump any measurements I'm aware of.
Charles, |
I see JWM. Interesting.
Agear, no placebo effect here in my system. Down right easy to hear within 20 seconds of the track playing.
The tech explanation has to be this. While the data IS the same the storage or housing is DIFFERENT .....kind of like wire. The data going thru the wire is the same, but the housing or storage is different. Yes, wire sounds different. Bottom line is I don't really care about the technical explanations as my ears and feet tapping know the difference:-)
Plenty of engineers say wire and amps should sound the same blah, blah, blah, but my ears now better. Exactly the same!
Andrew you know this. You also know what is happening in one system may not be repeated in another. Trust you ears.......yes I did blind listening! |
Grannyring I'm only talking about WAV files. I don't hear a difference if the WAV files came from XLD or if they came from I tunes. People say XLD sounds better, but I don't hear it. |
Steve, I blame your Offramp converter as it opened my eyes to working at maximizing the performance of my computer based front end. The improvement it brought really opened my eyes and surprised me.
It could be only Apple based front ends reflect the wav file improvement? I don't know and have not done enough testing with different computers, hard wired vs. wireless etc....
Like JWN has done, just try it and if no improvement comes, then no need to deal with the work and hassle involved with file conversion. |
Ya some don't. Who knows, but I am not crazy as my wife hear the improvement also. Also, wav files play directly from my Mini SSD drive sound a tad better then those played from my outside storage device.
Best sound is SSD drive with wav files on my system, with a Mini, in my room......Ha! Nice big improvement.
Again, many experience the same thing as it has been written about and reviewed. Many factor perhaps. |
If you do blinded A+B testing of non-audiophiles (or audiophiles) in a "revealing" system, the results will be a mosh pit of confusion. Sorry folks, placebo effect here.
Steve, I am open to hearing a technical dissertation or associated measurements explaining why there are perceivable differences between WAV and AIFF.
Bill, you can rerip your CDs. The problem comes with tagging them.... |
I don't hear a difference between ripping cd's to WAV using either I Tunes or XLD. |
Forgot to mention that Positive Feedback wrote a nice article and defined all these file formats and also reported that on an Apple computer WAV files sounded better than AIFF. |
AIFF files converted to WAV don't sound quite as good a ripping in xld to WAV from the start. Oh my, I can't re-rip all my CDs , but will have to settle for the WAV conversion. |
Steve I was going to say the same thing. The wav and aiff differences are real and some folks can't hear it or their systems don't reveal it. I posted on CA and received lots of help on how to convert to WAV. Some folks could only ask why as they hear no difference. Well some folks don't hear the difference between cables etc....but they are still there and real.
All I can say is just try it. If you don't like it better, then don't do it. I do and am converting as I type! |
Agear - there are two things that can affect this:
1)if they are using a network streamer, some of these sound identical or very close between FLAC and wav
2) their systems may not be up to the level required to hear the difference
Everyones system is at a different level, so one must take all of these posts with a grain of salt.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Agear, that was going to be my question as to the dependency on which player is being used and whether a difference is heard between AIFF and WAV.
I think I am in a minority here with my impressions from last summer and choosing Pure Music as the player I found to sound more musical and display more body, if perhaps a slightly "softer" focus. I wonder if there is a time limit before one can try another free trial of A+ and/or Amara after already trying the trial version once? I would like to get a few more things tweeked and then try them again.
Bill, your thoughts on WAV have me curious enough that I plan to take three CDs I am familiar with, rip them in WAV and then compare directly with the same CDs that I already have ripped in AIFF, maybe not today though.
Steve, I was encouraged to hear that improvements can be had by installing the $4K or $6K Plasmatron. I will add that to my to-do list! Oh well, pushing the envelope is a good thing, even if that particular improvement is well outside of my current envelope. |
Regarding AIFF vs WAV, some folks hear a difference and some don't: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/wav-vs-aiff-3239/
It may depend partly on software and relevant settings.... |
In response to Steve's comment about the Antipodes, I heard one a few weeks ago playing through a Meitner DAC and then through my Lampi L4/G4 at the dealer. Sounded great with both DACs, although I preferred it with the Lampi. But really only had a brief listen, will spend more time with the Antipodes this spring I hope. I certainly value Steve's opinion on the Antipodes. |
|
Tim, how does your dac sound now? |
Bill,
You've certainly paid your dues with time, effort and curiosity put into a computer source system. It's gratifying to know you've been rewarded with superb results and ever increasing musical pleasure. Congratulations on your success.
Charles, |
G'ring, it is the ifi USB Power. My mistake, I misread your previous post where you said you had the Ultra Fi USB filter and I thought you had one of these; http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iUSB.html |
Bruce the Offramp BNC cable combo improved everything including the bass. Bottom line is the music is just more pleasing to me. I want to listen more. |
Steve your Offramp and BNC cable are an awesome addition. Yes, I will trial the Dynamo power supply soon!
Your Offramp combined with the WAV revelation has me smiling more and more.
Learning more every day! |
I have compared aiff to wav for hours today. Many CDs and each one sounded better in WAV. No doubt about it. A no brainer folks. Each CD file in WAV always sounded more natural and analog if you will. Easy to convert to wav in iTunes. The art stays and the order stays. The sound is better in an obvious and thrilling way.
More body
More foundation to the music
Larger stage
Less forces and more natural highs
Removes last vestige of digital glare and nasties in the highs
I compared aiff and wav played off my SSD drive with Amarra playlist and the result is absolutely conclusive in my system. Anyone hearing would Agee. |
I have also found that ALAC AIFF and FLAC all color the sound compared to .wav. I find AIFF actually worse than ALAC.
I believe there is only one server out there that makes FLAC sound like .wav, the Antipodes.
BTW, if you want to make your digital sound more live, like analog, check out the Plasmatron from VHAudio.com. Once I heard this AC regulator, I had to have one.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Update. More aiff vs wav comparisons and wav is clearly more natural, less forced, smoother highs, larger stage, more body and weight. I simply converted existing aiff files in iTunes to wav without re-ripping. No need to re-rip. |
|
Mitch2, that is good counsel.
Bill, computers are indeed a pain. I have done WAV and AIFF comparisons and did not hear any differences. There should not be. Ask Steve Nugent about that one before converting all your files.... |
Try running just the data leg of a Gemini dual USB cable, or another USB that runs data only, into your ifi; leave the power unplugged from the ifi and then run the Wywires to your Lampizator as usual. The Lampizator works fine without any USB power. I did make a very short data only USB cable but it didn't sound as good as the Gemini with only the data leg connected. |
Bill,
I have similar. I do have the OR4 which I hardly use due to no Integer Mode support. I normally use the iFi Triple play, ie iUSB-Gem cables-iLink and top off with Aubisque filter. I hope to eventually try an iPurifier. My L4 has no USB .only the Lampi DSD does.
2011 stock Mac Mini though with A+ or JRiver. Pangea USB cable and Swisscables digital coax and interconnects. Generic BNC cables for the Chord Qute HD.
I use xACT to convert file formulas.
I will test for myself and see. |
Grannyring
Did the Offramp improve the bass as well
I rip all my CDs to a playlist makes the metadata less important,WAV is so much better sounding I don't mind the hassle
Wisnon
In my setup right now the Aulilac is better, when I can afford a Dude I will get another Lampi |
Here is my front end transport....
2009 Apple Mini (SSD drive,software optimizations, Mojo Audio Joule Linear power supply, expanded memory) - Amarra 2.6 w/EQ activated - Wywires USB cable - Ultra Fi USB filter - Empirical Audio Offramp 4 (Turboclock, Hynes USB) - Empirical Audio BNC cable - Lamizator 4/4 dac
Best digital front end I have owned or heard. |
I am not a patient guy and this computer audio world is difficult for me. So many little nuances make a difference. Part of me wants to just spin discs again due to the imense learning curve for someone like me. I am not computer savy and force myself to learn.
What I have been hearing is why I do this as my cd spinning transport is not in the same league, but what a pain!I will say it again...what a pain. I am venting.
Love to hire a person to now come in and convert all my aiff to wav files. |
I also have a Apple Mini and yes WAV is an issue in terms of CD covers and meta data, but it sounds soooooo much better that I don't care. Must be a way to work around it, but I don't know of it right now. In terms of sound, WAV kills AIFF! |
Bill, that's great news and not surprising. Steve makes great and efficacious stuff. That is one of the reasons why I have argued for the use of a pure, digital transport that includes signal reclocking. A lot of people (including you!) have argued that their modded Mac minis were sufficient. They are not. This is one reason why Mr. Anderson is threatening to leave the fold. He made the mistake of selling his Lampi transport! |
Granny, that's terrific information about the offramp and the first report I've seen of a Lampizator user running though a top-notch converter. I have a Lampi 4.5 demo here (waiting for my unit to arrive, thanks Fred!) and running the offramp as you are, only with an offramp 5 via BNC. The sound is something else, far heftier and more solid than the PWD MKII + Offramp (which is no slouch). Eventually I'll be running my Lampi via i2s + Offramp, which from the PWD and Audio GD M7 bettered SPDIF by a margin. I'm also using an Aqvox USB PSU to the offramp, which cuts off the 5V from the USB port. I cannot say for certain that this makes a big difference. |
Abruce, you are right indeed. Computer audio Aphiles please take note! |
Bill,
I read this back in 2010 and satyed away from Wav:
"First - we must find a good machine for creating files from silver disks. In my case it is my beloved iMac. It rips CD to AIFF with 9x speed - circa 7 minutes.
Second - we must choose file format. The lossless WAV is no good because Mac OS hates it and because iTunes refuses to attach CD covers to WAV files.
FLAC was rejected because MAC does not support it (yet).
The file which works with Mac, with Windows, with Squeezeboz and with Squeezecenter too is AIFF - a lossless Mac format, a good compromise." |
ABruce,
I see you are selling your Lampi. What do you replace it with?
Bill,
I too have a modded OR4 but have not used it much. My L4 does NOT have USB, and I have to use converters. I have a Lindemann 24/192 DDC and a iFi ILink with iUSB power and Gemini cable, plus an Ultrafi Aubisque cable. I use the latter mostly with SwissCables digital RCA connector. I need to experiment with the OR4 in January and it will be easier with new equipment stands that allow easier reach behind.
Finally, I exclusively use AIFF, as I am in the Mac world, however, i will convert to Wav and test like what you say. The comparison I have normally seen is Wav vs Flac, not AIFF. |
Big night of learning tonight. Folks WAV sounds better than AIFF and it is easy to hear the improvement. No straining to hear it. WAV is far more refined and composed.AIFF sounds more Hifi and a tad forced in direct comparison. No doubt about it WAV is better and by a decent margin. I am not sure how many Aphiles know this?
Man oh man is this front end smoking good right now. So many little details to get right in computer based audio. |
Thanks for the update wav will take it up another notch, or it does on my system |
Ok, I want to report on my findings using the Empirical Audio Offramp. The Offramp I have is;
Offramp 4 with Turboclock, updated 5 tranny, Hynes USB, and BNC to BNC cable.
I had been going from my Mac Mini USB out directly into the Lapizator 4 USB input with my Wywires USB cable. Now I go from the Apple 2009 Mini USB output into the Offramp USB input. Then from the Offramp using the BNC connector into my BNC Lampizator input.
Is there any improvement? Ha, well I wish I would have done this months ago when I started this whole computer audio thing. Still learning and so much more to learn. Yes, it sounds better. I won't go on for paragraphs, but here are the overall improvements.
In some ways I am hearing my Lampy for the first time as compared to its USB input. Music is more at ease and natural. Stage is wider and bigger overall. Digital glare that was there at times on certain recordings has all but vanished. The biggest and most important change for me is the sense of ease in the upper mids and highs. Instruments have more body and improved tone. Enough Aphile terms. I just want to listen more and longer.
This is with the Wall Wart power supply. I understand the Dynamo power supply from Empirical takes it all up another notch. This Offramp is expensive however and well as all the possible upgrades.
So I am now learning more about WAV vs AIFF as I understand WAV may sound better and all my CD's were put into AIFF. Yikes! We will see. I will report back on my findings..... |
Bill,
Even with those stock parts the sound quality is at a very high level. From personal experience I can confidentially say the Duelunds elevate this speaker to world class natural sound. I'm preaching to the choir I realize.
My speaker has only a single capacitor( tweeter) and no resistors.
Charles, |
Charles
I looked into the bottom of my TVIII speakers tonight. My tweeter has one 15 oHm resistor/10 watt and what looks like a 3uf cap. The resistor is a cheap sandcast and the cap is a Solen. Boy there is room for improvement when I get to it! Also one larger cap in the bass section. I will upgrade in the future with Duelund! |
Hi Bill,
I found it interesting that you could use such low power (1.5-3.5 watts) at all with your Coincidents, I'm impressed. I can see where your Thor amplifier would serve you very well. I would say a 300b or a 845 SET with high quality power supply and transformers would work well(these would be more suitable than 45 or 2A3 SET). I know you're enjoying your music immensely.
Charles, |
Bruce,
I will let you know what the Offramp does. It will be interesting as Steve at Empirical is confident I will hear a nice improvement over USB into our Lampys. |
Charles, I am using several amps including a 45, 2a3 and some others I am doing some work on. However, my main amps are Thor TPA 30's with some nice mods done. These are wonderful tube monoblock amps using the EL34 tube. They are very special and my favorite thus far.
I am selling the 45 and 2a3 as the Thor is very, very good with my speaker.
Seems the TVIII likes a little power to really open up. |
Can't wait to hear your impressions with the Offramp in the mix |
Hi Bill,
Look forward to your comparison and impressions. By the way are you using your 45 amplifier in this system?
Charles, |
Hi all. I use both the USB and RCA input on my Lampy. I have always wondered if a great USB to RCA converter would sound better than using the USB input on the Lampy.
I will soon know as I am trying an Empirical Audio Offramp converter tomorrow. Want to get the most out of this fine dac! |
STR, did you try the PS Audio Transport connected to the Lampi? If so how did it sound that way? |
Gen 4 uses Current output R2R chips and :
A DISCLAIMER_ THE 6N6P IS NOT SUITABLE FOR LAMPIZATORS WORKING DIRECTLY WITH CURRENT OUTPUT DAC CHIPS LIKE TDA1541A.
For the I-out DAC types allways use 6N2P! |
"Yet I am reading that 6h6p is not in the current L4. Why?"
Lukasz's says(states on his website) of the 301 parts in GEN 4 only one is shared with the the GEN 3 (the power button). |
