New cart for under 1K
Johnnyb53, You state that "Spitty sibilants are the first sign the treble isn't right. In addition to an emphasis at that frequency range, it could also be tweeter overshoot or ringing." Agreed but ringing and resonant peak are the same thing. I agree with you and everyone else that the Focal tweeter is "bright and cutting" |
"It might also be helped with a well-placed capacitor or resistor in the crossover to roll off the highs a bit." Actually it would be an inductor in series with the tweeter with a resistor in parallel with the inductor. However it will not change the character of the highs just the quantity. IME you can not deal with resonance peaks in the crossover you have to deal with them physically. IE blocking the offensive resonance, stiffen the dome or use a different shape and or material. |
Johnnyb53, I read that same review. I used to toe-in my Focal's and after tweaking inch by inch, straight forward is definitely best with these speakers. All, I've decided to put a hold on the cartridge and focus my energies and time to save up for a new pair of speakers. After reading all these incredibly insightful posts I'm definitely convinced that I simply do not like the way my speakers sound (bass is excellent, but that's it). One post stated not to upgrade the cart because that's where my budget is right now. I was looking for the quick fix because the harshness really annoys me. Patience will reap rewards, speakers are the next purchase. I'm thinking Harbeth, Dynaudio, Spendor, any thoughts on a nice pair of speakers without the harshness? Does anyone know anything about the Anthony Gallo 3.5's? They receive excellent accolades and are not all that expensive. Thanks again to everyone for all the feedback. This has been truly informative. David |
Jjrenman, Occasionally with some recordings the JM's sound fantastic! Typically it's with jazz or anything without vocals. Due to the sibilance issues and the harshness in the highs, all vocals are not enjoyable. Separation is also a nice trait of the JM's. I do listen loud occasionally, I have my moments where I just have to listen to some old Queesnryche or Iron Maiden! Most of what I listen to is indie rock, classic rock, jazz, and some chamber music. Some favorites are Wilco, Sufjan Stevens, Miles Davis, Andreas Vollenweider, Neil Young, Stan Getz, Frank Zappa, I think you get the idea. My range is 4K-6K used or new. Of course I'd like to stay closer to the 4K range. |
After I wrote that it occurred to me that we're talking about the same thing. *Just about* all dome tweeters have the "oil can resonance." However, they don't all sound the same owing to different materials (with different resonant peak frequencies), amounts of damping, magnet strength, etc. Dynaudios don't seems to exhibit this problem. A few months ago I auditioned some speakers with a Heil-type folded ribbon tweeter. As I listened to how natural the sound was, I realized that I was for once hearing treble reproduced without overshoot or ringing. There are a growing number of speakers that use this tweeter type, including GoldenEar, ADAM Audio, the Martin-Logan Motion Series, and Legacy Audio. Just about every review I've read of speakers that use this tweeter type mention the detailed yet natural treble reproduction devoid of resonant peaks and overshoot. Also, I wonder if the oil-canning is mostly a metal dome problem. I've checked the response curves of several Dynaudio speakers and their tweeters seem to be free of any resonant peaks. But then, maybe that's why they get the big bucks. :) |
Johnnyb53, Well said about tweeter types. I've been hearing great things about the GoldenEar speakers but have not yet auditioned them. Another tweeter type that does not have the resonant problems of a dome are the dual ring radiator types. They are used very successfully in Sonus Faber as well as others. |
Jjremnman: The speakers I heard recently were the GoldenEar Aon 3 standmount speakers at $999/pair. They are a stone cold bargain. Their midrange and bass is as good as their treble, which is saying something. In fact, the Aon 3's bass quality, balance, and extension into the 30's is in the same league as a 41" floorstander with--say--a 10"x12" footprint like my Mirage OMD-15s or Monitor Audio Silver RX-6s. GoldenEars are well distributed. I strongly recommend you audition their lineup. They hit way above their price points. I've also heard their flagship Triton Two, but there are things about the Aon 3 that I like better. Sure, the Aon doesn't go as deep or play as loud as the Triton Two, but the smaller cabinet with no parallel surfaces is remarkably quiet and devoid of obvious cabinet colorations. I'm also keeping an eye out for the new Triton Seven, scheduled for June release. It's a passive floorstander with a D'Appolito array augmented by side-firing passive radiators; $1399/pair, no stands required. |
Johnnyb53, A buddy of mine bought a pair of Martin-Logan Motion series on my recommendation and the retailer had them on sale for 50% off. When I listened to them, I was really impressed by the smooth quality of the highs. As a matter of fact I was a little pissed that my speakers retail for 6K and he spent 500 bucks and they sound better (at least in the highs). Anyway, I went online and discovered the method in which they are manufactured. It's very interesting how they layer and fold over the materials to create the tweeter. And it's logical that the sound produced is smoother than metal domes. When I was in my teens I remember Infinity speakers being very popular due to the ribbon tweeters. Back then they were one piece of ribbon that only handled approximately 2 watts. Hence, people that were turning up their rock were blowing the tweeters. Infinities response was to insert an array of multiple ribbons. |
Davidlillis: Those Infinity tweeters were from their EMIT series of drivers, correct? I sold stereos in SoCal in the mid-'70s including ESS. Their Heil AMT tweeter (the basis of this current crop of folded tweeters) were incredibly fast and clear. They could also handle a fair amount of power. The current ones take up much less space; the old ESS AMTs had a huge magnet structure. I'm really glad to see air motion transformer tweeters come back. I'm really thinking about getting some GoldenEar Aon 3s or Triton Sevens for the living room. Also, for a computer desktop or small home studio, the Emotiva Airmotiv line of powered monitors with folded ribbon tweeters should provide some great bang for the buck. The entry-level Airmotiv 4 is only $349/pair. |
Thanks Johnnyb53, I don't remember what series from Infinity, I was probably 13/14 years old at that time. I'm definitely going to audition the Golden Ear's and the others that contain the "folded tweeter" design and looking very forward to it. I bought a pair of Wharfedale 10.2's for my office and I have to say, they're impressive for 500 bucks. I've got them connected to a Marantz PM5004 which is perfectly sufficient for an office and I was keeping my office budget below 1K (which is the first time I've ever stuck to a budget with audio gear!). |
Thanks guys, I'm in NYC which is no where near Phoenix for a listen of the Proac's. Devore are sold by my local dealer as well as Devore, and Dynaudio. I don't know much about any three of them, but will definitely give them a listen. I would love to listen to some Proac's, but I see that could be an issue given the fact that none of the dealers in NYC seem to sell them. Regards, David |
David, I don't know what your price range is, but here is a couple of reco's for some sweet sounding speakers that are close enough to NYC for you for a personal demo. Merlin VSM-MXe Verity Audio Parsifal |
Jperry, I bought an RP5 from John in Verona. I attempted to contact him several times throughout the following week to make an appointment to check on the order for the spacer for my cart as well as setup a time for the following weekend to swing by for one of his guys to perform the work. The first two phone calls I attempted with him, he was either eating lunch or busy, stated he'd call me back and did not. The third call, he practically hung up on me. I returned the TT the following Saturday. Unfortunately my experience with John was not the positive one most people seem to have. I'm reluctant to deal with him in the future, but will if it's the only place to hear the Proac's. Thanks again everyone! |
So you found a speaker with a metal dome teweeter that is not harsh. I'll bet you that there are far more speakers with metal domes that are considered "bright", "edgy" or "harsh" than are not. BTW, the tweeter in the Harbeth is one of the few metal domes that is excellent. I believe it to be a Seas and it has been used succesively in some of the best speakers over the past twenty years. However if you look closely at it you will see that they use a clear "acoustic lens" on the back side of the grill to block the ringing that leads to a harsh high frequencies. |
Turns out my favorite dealer, In Living Stereo now sells Spendor but stopped selling Harbeth. There are not any Proac dealers anywhere near me so over the course of the next couple of weeks I'm going to listen to the Spendor's and the Harbeth's. I listened to a pair of Monitor Audio's and Atom's over this past weekend and thought the MA's were nice but missing something and the Atom's were not good at all (IMO). I've read quite a bit regarding the Spendor's and the Harbeth's and think it's basically going to come down to my ears and what I like. so the search continues, I'll keep everyone posted on what I like. Thanks again everyone for all the input. |
