One of my NuForce monoblock amplifiers seems to be irreparable. I need to get a new amplifier. I’m looking in the one to two thousand dollar range, new or used. Any recommendations for a decent amplifier in that price category?
My version is the 150A Ref V2 , Made in 2010 . Guy I brought it from also had a "Hot Rod" for sale , said the difference is there but no big deal between the two. I know him to be an honest audiophile and true music lover. Sale was only because he was financing going the 300b set route just for fun .
@rvpiano Do you know which variant it is? The last iteration before he went over to the Aria/SA-100 models seems to have been the 150A Reference Version 2.
Well, it didn’t take long! As Johnny said, LESS than 4 minutes told the story. The Belles is now my amp. Just about night and day is the difference between the Dragons and the Belles. In about every parameter it excels: clarity, bass, definition, sound staging.... Need I go on? BIG THANKS to Schubert and Johnny for their input. Would never have picked it without them both. Gotta go now. Got some listening to do.
The Belles amp is arriving tomorrow, but the bad news is I am leaving on a 10 day trip the next day! So, I’ll get only a few hours at best to hear it until I get back. The good news is I’ll have a couple of weeks to try it out.
I still have some problems with the Red Dragons. They’ve gotten a lot better with time. But there’s something missing. I really loved my NuForce monoblocks, and have decided to pay more to have them fixed properly. Ultimately, It’ll be a choice between the Belles amp and the NuForce. If the Belles sounds best I’ll keep it and hold on to the NuForce as back-up.
I just saw you ordered the Belles 150 to try out, too. Smart move, testing out as many different amps as you can in your home, for no or little cost and in your own system seems to me to be the best method I can think of to ensure you buy an amp you know you'll enjoy. You're welcome for assisting you in your search but I actually enjoy trying to help others with their systems. I get to vicariously enjoy their system improvements without switching all those connecting cables around. I know I tend to encourage people to give class D amps a try before buying anything else but not just because they provided such a significant upgrade in my system's performance but also because I think they offer the best bang for the buck. Of course, I realize that class D amps aren't always the best solution for everyone. There are many good amps available that will provide very good sound quality in most people's systems. But I'm fairly certain that good quality class D amps will outperform the vast majority of class A/B currently available since they're smaller, lighter, run cooler, are more efficient, quieter, more detailed, lower in distortion, have better bass response, are more dynamic and usually cost less. I have heard a handful of very good class A/B amps that outperform some good quality class D amps, however, they're all quite expensive. I would urge you to ignore amp type and just choose the amp that you determine performs the best and is within your budget.
I((('d be real curious to hear how the Dragons would sound with a top line CJ or a VTL preamp in front of them. It should round the rough edges quite a bit.))) Kalali Whenever you try and run a tube preamp into a 10 K load like above your rolling off the extremes ending up with a bleak lifeless system. It's not the brands its the interface.
When RVpiano hooks up the Belles with its 100 K input impedance i prdict he will know in less then 4 minutes whats going on by comparison.
Also, make sure you read in the owners manual if your preamps invert you will need to flip both speaker wires 180 out Also on older CJs with non-polarized AC plugs take a voltmeter and check for best AC plug orientation into the wall outlet.
With Preamp off interconnects disconnected Place voltmeter on AC volts scales with positive probe on preamps chassis and black probe into unpainted wall ground screw or ground round hole. measure the chassis voltage to preamp voltage then flip the orientation of ac plug and measure again. whichever way measures the least chassis voltage will sound best.
I had to leave the house for a few days but left the amp on. When I came back, it was much better. I guess I’ll give it the full 45 days before deciding. Thanks for your interest in this endeavor.
"The 350 was a 6 out of ten rating, and the price was suspiciously low."
I'm eyeing that 350 too. That 350 is being auctioned so the low price that you saw was the bidding price and will probably go up by the time its over. What caught my eyes was the seller, its tektondesign !
"All of a sudden, after playing the unit for several hours, the amp seems to have kicked in. Sounds much better. Who new?"
Hi rvpiano,
I was going to post after your ’1st impressions’ post (stating the Red Dragons sounded a bit bright) to suggest you just wait a few days for them to calm down but, from your last post, it sounds like your amps already did before I could post. I probably should have warned you about this apparent tendency for class D amps to sound a bit bright right out of the box that disappears within the first couple of days of use. I noticed this with all 3 of my class D amps; 2 stereo and a pair of monos all different brands. In my experience, the good news is the brightness goes away rather quickly and then the performance continues to improve (more tonally correct and natural) for several weeks afterward until they stabilize. Too small a sample size to claim a tendency but I’m basing my comments not only on my experiences but also on numerous other class D amp owners reported similar experiences, too. I really don’t recall a specific point in time when I ever thought during this ’break-in’ period that the amps had achieved their optimum performance level. Only in retrospect can I estimate it took about 6-8 weeks for my class D amps to reach their current optimum performance levels. Since class D amps are so efficient, I leave my amps on 24/7 so they’re idling constantly and immediately perform at optimum levels. I suggest you may want to do the same (I only turn them off when I’ll be out of the house for more than a day). It sounds like you’re currently mildly pleased with the Red Dragons thus far. I think you can expect a similar break-in period for your amps with performance improving significantly over the coming weeks. I would just caution against making any decisions until you’ve auditioned them for at least a month or so. Worst case is you return them and try something else. Hope this helped a bit and please keep us posted on your impressions; good, bad or otherwise.
I pretty much made up my mind about the Dragons, so I don’t want to start experimenting with power cords and cables.
I made a bid for the Belles Amp on Audiogon and it was accepted. So, I will try that amp and see what happens. Hopefully, it will be the last tryout. They have a 30 day return policy
The Red Dragons actually sound quite good in Soft Rock and the like, but not so much in Classical. So, until the Belles come, it’s other than Classical for me for me to listen to.
I'd be real curious to hear how the Dragons would sound with a top line CJ or a VTL preamp in front of them. It should round the rough edges quite a bit.
John, which Belles amp did you use for the comparisons? I've heard the SA-30 paired with Zu and it was excellent.
Once they get fully broken in, you may want to experiment with different/better power cords. At least according to the guys showing these amps at the audio show, the Class D amps just like Class A amps respond to power cords much more than Class AB, but for different reasons. They sounded great at the show, especially the bass response.
I ran 27 other ss amps against the Belles over 8 months using a CJ ARC and a VTL preamps In the end it was an easy choice I bought the Belles The used Belles 350 will easily win over Red Dragons amps. There is nothing wrong w dragons in any section of the bass-mid or treble but its just that after 45 min of listening you will want to walk the dog or check the.e mail unattached analyzing instead of listening where a normal amp like the Belles pulls you deep into the music and you want to keep playing. If in the Jersey area loaner units available Best JohnnyR
Rvpiano thank you really for your honesty, my speakers have a small tendency to bright so the red dragon is out of my list. might help you, my other options are the parasound a23, nuprime St 10, job 225, maybe Odyssey (reliable issues I have read)
As you can see from the above post, the brightness did not go away. A deal breaker for me. The NuForce sta 200 has none of that brightness. It just doesn’t have quite the level of definition as my old NuForce. Otherwise I would have kept it. However, I regard it as a terrific unit, regardless of price.
After using the Red Dragons for two days virtually non-stop, I’ve come to some conclusions. I know it’s much too soon to make a really informed evaluation, but I think I know the basic character of the amp. Even though it “kicked in” from it’s original cold start, it seems to have a brightness that I find impossible to listen to. It’s not because it’s a class D amp. The amps I’ve had for several years (NuForce Reference 9 monoblocks) are also Class D and they have just the right character to my taste. The Red Dragons would have to go a very long way to reach that level. I’m now considering a Belles Hot Rod amp available on Audiogon recommended by Schubert and Johnny from Audio Connection.
Hi rvpiano, thanks for your response, so I guess you did heard the Nuforce sta 200 but was not what you expected? And if you mind, When you say "sound much better" you mean is not bright any more?
Unless you need a lot of power, a First Watt amplifier (used, demo, or new) would be a major step up for you. I think the J2 is still in production. I own the J2 and M2, and I have a pair of XA60.8 amps.
Records display none of the problems of CDs. They sound very natural! Maybe a different cable between DAC and preamp would do the trick. But we’ll wait and see.
At this point, very bright and revealing; Excellent definition and soundstaging, Good bass control. I just hope it calms down to a more subdued presentation. So far, not as pleasing as my former amps. Whether it’s just too revealing or it’s not broken in yet, I don’t know. I have 45 days to decide what to do.
IMO the NuForce sta 200 for $500 is amazing. It was very close to my NuForce monoblocks, which I loved, that were four times the price. Of course my preamp and downstream components had something to do with the final result. As far as the Red Dragons are concerned, I just got them and can’t make an informed judgement. They’re very promising but not ready for prime time yet. I would have no absolutely no hesitation in recommending the sta 200 though. If you’re on a tight budget I’d definitely try it. On Amazon you have months to return it, and If you’re on Amazon Prime, it costs nothing to return it.
I'm looking to improve my amp and basically I'm in the same path as you, but I need more time and money to pull the trigger. So just a recommendation, read about the Nuforce sta 200, even I'm on your budget also this amp for 500 usd might be my bet. If you can compare it with the red dragon please report your impressions. Regards
Which Odyssey did you order? Klaus should not be giving you a hard time about a full refund. ;If you paid with a credit card and he continues to give you a hard time, you can always
register a dispute and they'll deal with Klaus and the refund.
I'm glad you're going to audition the Red Dragons. Compared to the Odyssey, I think you'll be pleased not only with the sound but also with the money you'll save on both the purchase price and electricity as long as you own them.
Since you have 45 days to decide whether you like them in your system or not, you might as well just relax and enjoy the process.
Please report back on your impressions once you've had a thorough audition.
Later, Tim
Evidently Red Dragon dispatched the amps as soon as I put the order in but didn’t inform me because they had a death in the family. So, fortuitously, when I wrote them that I changed my mind and told them I wanted them, they emailed me to say they had already been sent. Interestingly, Klaus from Odyssey is giving me a hard time about canceling his amp, even though I canceled only hours after I bought it. I’m definitely trying out the Red Dragons. Hopefully, they’ll sound at least as good as my NuForce and I’ll keep them. I really don’t like playing musical chairs with equipment.
From the guys I’ve known people who play rock like class D more than people who play classical .
Aria? I saw a 350 and a 150A . FWIW, I am running a 150A Reference MkII , new was $2600 bucks . It’s7 years old and I got it for 1300$ as a 2 hr drive deal . Good as new and sounds great and will for another 10 years at least . I have a 30 year old plain 150 in my bedroom system that was recapped and hard wired with a $500 buck AudioArt power cord done by AudioArt himself, one of the most honest guys in Audio , as a project that will be good for 15-20 years. Paid 400 bucks ,sounds great . If you lived around Twin Cities I’d let you use for a few months , you might be surprised .
I’m not rich or poor either .Just a retired old soldier and history teacher . I have a very good sounding system built on the pay no more then half as much as new system . One exception was Eastern Electric Avant 8 tube pre, a true giant,killer and a few TT’s . . Reason , only 50 were allocated for USA , $2000 .
If the Red Dragon M-500 mono-blocks are arriving tomorrow, I suggest you just try them out in your system. I think you're in for a very pleasant surprise. You've got 45 days to try them out and there's virtually no risk. I thought you cancelled the Red Dragon order. Both the Belles and Odyssey are good amps but my opinion is M-500 are a cut above both. I think I may be getting spoiled with my class D amps. I've had them on 24/7 for over 3 yrs now. I use them every day, I've had no problems and they still sound great for ht and music. I'm curious to hear what you think of the Red Dragons. Are you planning on trying them out?
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