I agree with viber and Jay that the perceived HF emphasis of the XLF's is by design. Magico with their beryllium tweeter rolls off the top end by design. I always thought the Focal Stella with its beryllium tweeter should be rolled off a little. Beautiful sounding speaker but a little fatiguing for me.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
The difference with Alexandria XLF is that it has two tweeters, one front firing and one rear firing. I have to say I've never really been a fan of that sort of topology when used by the many other brands over the years that have tried it, but I've never heard Alexandria XLF in person, nor another truly high end speaker with rear firing tweeter that I can recall (I usually note the feature and probably sort of write it off out of hand, merely because I've never heard one that I liked). So that is something I'd have to get comfortable with for sure if I'd consider a speaker like that. I couldn't just buy it blindly like WC did, lol, that's for sure |
Kren, Regardless of the tweeter material, Wilson designed the XLF to have HF emphasis. The tweeter is used down to 1000 Hz, much lower than the usual 2-3 kHz crossover. A second tweeter is rear and top firing. There are probably other trade secrets in the crossover or custom-modified tweeter, we don't know. But the HF brilliance of the XLF is due to the overall design, which is what Jay is implying. |
Kren, Listen for yourself--what do you hear? The Temptation song, particularly with demo 1 makes the sibilants stand out. The XLF tweeter is actually of similar "hotness" to the GTA and my own speakers. But on more natural, well balanced recordings with different mikes located further away, I judge the XLF tweeter to be natural, revealing and excellent, as with GTA and my speakers. Jay probably has played this song on other speakers. My guess is that he found the Magico M6 to have less sibilance on this recording. Too bad Agon doesn't have a good search function for posts where the M6 may have played this recording. In fact, if Jay had done this shootout with the M6, I believe that more people would have voted for demo 1. As it is, I think the XLF has done an excellent job of revealing the differences, and I am glad Jay did it with the XLF. |
Nope - soft dome tweeters are rarely "hot sounding". They are smooth sounding by nature, but if the rest of the system is tuned to have "high frequency extension" then it will sound more projected because that is what you are doing. Dynaudio is also using soft dome tweeters and i never found it bright when i owned it, but again you can make anything sound bright if you choose to. On the other hand, "warming things up" by using transparent cables can be an option, but an expensive one since the OPUS speaker cables are crazy money and you have to send them in to get "tuned" each time you change electronics. The XLF has a lot of clarity and its adjustability will do wonderful things for a lot of different room sizes, but it is still revealing of whatever you are doing with the supporting cast just like a lot of other speakers. However, the sheer size of the speaker WILL make it feel as if there is more energy because it does have 2 tweeters, 2 big midrange units. This was a speaker that Wilson Audio used in MASSIVE ballrooms at shows with 50-PLUS chairs in the room so it is capable of humongous dispersion. It won’t shy away from telling you with a big pronunciation what you have done to the sound. |
WC, Viber keeps saying that XLF has a "hot" tweeter. He’s said it at least 3-4 times now. Is Viber correct about that? Or is Viber wrong about that? I seriously have to question Viber’s hearing (or listening skills) if he thinks that XLF has a "hot" tweeter, coming most recently from Magico M6 (that’s not disparaging M6, but its beryllium tweeter is certainly much more forward than the soft dome of the XLF - guessing that very few serious audiophiles would dispute that statement). A debate about which tweeter is more accurate or sounds better is fair game, but misusing (IMO) terms like "hot" isn't very helpful, I'd submit. That's why Viber should be corrected or rebuked if he is wrong in that contention. If he's correct in your opinion WC, then I'll be happy to stand corrected. |
Video 3. "Temptation" 15:00 and 7:16 for demo 1 and 2, resp. Demo 1 shows more brilliance on the voice, with more sibilance on her HF consonants, more nuance in the midrange of her voice. I understand how some people would say that demo 2 is more natural, due to the XLF's hot tweeter which exaggerates the sibilants in this recording. The opening percussion has more snap on demo 1, and even the lower freq upright string bass shows a bit more snap on the plucking of the strings, although this is harder to hear. As usual, I can distinguish items better if I concentrate on upper midrange/HF. Despite the fact that this recording on the XLF is hyped up in HF which is revealed more by demo 1, I vote for demo 1. Here is an example where I admit that HF emphasis sometimes creates unnatural effects, but I accept it for the overall aliveness of demo 1 vs demo 2. |
chazzzy, I agree, and do listen to what you listen for, but believe that soundstage is a secondary criterion. The thing that gives away whether something is live or not is the sudden perception of "aliveness" or snap. I don't care WHERE the sound is coming from, as long as I am excited by that snap. Have you ever been scared by the sudden crack of thunder/lightning, or hearing a gunshot during a theater performance? Who cares WHERE it comes from? In fact, for maximum clarity, my speakers are extremely close together, so instead of a 60 degree equilateral triangle, they are about 15 degrees. I can still tell approximately where the instruments are coming from, but the increased clarity with narrow separation outweighs the sacrifice of R/L separation. I have found that more R/L separation bloats image size, interfering with focus and clarity. The immersion that some people like with more R/L separation is not for me. Also, clarity encompasses and enables perception of speed, lifelike tonal nuances, resolution of decays, spatial cues. My only sacrifice is R/L width. |
You all also forget a few important facts about the Vivaldi: 1. It has multiple chassis which means? MORE POWER CORDS 2. It needs top end digital cables to connect all chassis together The msb reference needs 2 powercords (if you have dual power bases) or just one powercord if you bought it with only one power base, but it does not need any sort of expensive AES cable to connect each chassis. That said, both dacs are extremely protected on the used market and often times are sold very quickly once listed. Most of the current MSB dacs are rarely online because most MSB owners just dont have a reason to move to another brand. What i do hear is that you typically see DCS owners move to a MSB DAC but rarely the other way around. |
Jay, Yes, to keep us all honest and open minded, it would be great when you do the Connie video to label the dac's as demo A and demo B. Right now, the people who think they know the characteristics of demo 1 and 2 will be biased going into the Connie video. That includes me, and I want to have an open mind. |
“which adds $12k” Yep, he’ll be keeping the dcs my guess is move back to Vivaldi at some point relatively soon WC, you should still do the reveal after the third video, per original plan. Then go ahead and do the Consternation video however you want and keep that one be blind. Interesting to see at that point if people can tell. But the 3part current shootout has been so well set up and stands alone that you really should reveal as planned. I suspect the only reason you wouldn’t is if you aren’t happy with way people are voting and want to tip the scales back toward the losing dac |
@grey9hound This isn't synthesized bass like Black Eyed Peas, this is real bass guitar that you can feel through the entire song (with exception of the drum solo). The YT video doesn't come close to the CD version. I think anyone who has the 7 minute version of this song knows what I'm referring to. |
Viber, TBH I was very surprised thay you and I were listening for the same sonic subtleties and in many instances going to similar parts of the music. But yes to me music either sounds alive or it doesn’t. Now granted we all hear a bit different so we might value one thing over another, but harmonics, natural sounding overtones, decay and spatial queues are part of what I listen for and am immediately drawn to. Above those how is separation? Is the soundstage deep and can I close my eyes and see each instrument in space? As I built my headphone system these last few months I especially paid attention to these areas including tonality which is the one area where to my ears DAC #2 has the advantage. It’s presentation is beautifully rich and quite vivid. Other things also come into play. Things like dynamics, speed, soundstage width/height etc...but you get the gist of what I’m saying. |
Song # 2 video #2 DAC #1’s elegantly nuanced and layered presentation beats DAC #2’s vividness and tonal richness. DAC #2’s palette of sound is too one dimensional for me. Where everything for Dac #2 seems to be vibrant primary colors, DAC #1 paints in all the primary colors, many hues and pastels plus delicate shades of grey. Coming into this I was expecting these amps to be similar in most regards with some difference in presentation. However to my ears comparing one directly against the other they actually perform markedly different. Scoreboard DAC #1 2 points - DAC #2 0 points |
Funny, chazzzy is being accused of the same things as I. Chazzzy and I get it. As musicians, Chazzzy and I value clarity above everything else. Musicians are trained to strive for the best clarity that our physical abilities will allow. If demo 1 has greater clarity with more accurate DA conversion than demo 2 on A speakers and B amplifiers, it will have the same greater clarity and accurate DA conversion on C speakers and D amplifiers. However, the people who want some ill-defined synergy will say that they may LIKE demo 1 on A speaker and C amp, but LIKE demo 2 on B speaker and D amp. This may happen with the XLF, which some people hate for its hot tweeter. They prefer to ease the XLF pain with the more rounded and less revealing demo 2. They are not prioritizing clarity, but are seeking the lesser "evil" of the XLF with demo 2. With Magico M6, they might choose the clarity of demo 1. Still, it will be fun to repeat the A/B with the different mike and Connie amp. I applaud this exercise, and I will likely come to the same conclusions. So far, demo 1 for me. However, if it changes to demo 2, one possibility is that since 1 and 2 are very close so far, random variations, or other unknown factors like sudden change in power quality may skew the results. |
@rbach I get it. Jay does his best to be politically correct and on the best terms when it comes to manufacturers. He constantly moves equipment and wants to be on best terms, especially as his brand and thread here continue to grow. That’s a legitimate and intelligent position. I on the other hand don’t have to worry about that. To my ears and in my system, DAC #1 outperforms DAC #2 in very critical areas. DAC #2 gives up performance in separation, detail, air, and harmonic nuance in exchange for vivid presentaion and tonal density or what Johnny Darko calls "chunkiness". Lolz 😄 DAC #1 outperforms DAC #2 in what I would require a SOTA DAC to do. I can match it with any components I want to make for richer tonal qualities. That’s easy. For instance a BAT Rex tube amp or a Gryphon Mephisto for a bit richer presentation. Or I can keep the Essense and substitute Valhalla 2 XLR’s and or Valhalla speaker cables for the Synergistics. (Jay the Synergistics are a bit cooler than the Valhalla 2’s yes?) Or I could put back in the Shunyata conditioner which Jay says adds warmth and "benefits one DAC and not the other" remember? So yeah, I get it. 😉 |
I agree with Jay "yep - the entire shootout is simply to let people hear how both dacs sound with the rest of the supporting cast. Of course, if i had different speakers or cabling then maybe things would be different." And ron17 "Not sure how you can say one DAC is better than the other. DAC #2 might sound best in Jay's room at this time (with current associated equipment) but with the M6's it might be DAC #1 that sounds best....It's all about system matching, not what people think is the best all around. IMO" Not sure chazzzy007 gets it. |
@chazzzy007 "I am voting for the best DAC. Not what sounds best with this system. I am looking at all performance parameters and voting for the DAC I think is doing the best job of da conversion." Not sure how you can say one DAC is better than the other. DAC #2 might sound best in Jay's room at this time (with current associated equipment) but with the M6's it might be DAC #1 that sounds best....It's all about system matching, not what people think is the best all around. IMO |
Testing 1, 2... New microphone, room treatment and Constellation Audio... https://youtu.be/Zhni945ozKQ |
Well had some time to catch up on some of the old videos with the M6 speakers and the large number of amps WC had over M6 window. Still not through all of them but here's how I rank the amps so far, by tier group. Within each tier group, I'll call them a tie for me - to further delineate would have taken much more time than I had. Still have a couple other amps yet to place that I didn't get to (Essence monos, some other Pass Labs monos, maybe one other). Tier 1: Gryphon Antilleon Evo and Constellation Centour monos Tier 2: Audio Research Ref 160M monos Tier 3: Gryphon Essence stereo and Soulution 530 Tier 4: Pass Labs X350.8 and XA60.8 Tier 1 pretty well separated from the other tiers. Tiers 2, 3, 4 closer together but still enough separation for me to group this way. All with Magico M6 speaker, obviously. |
I agree Ron. What I’m hearing is that DAC #1 seems slightly rolled off compared to DAC #2, especially on some of those cymbal splashes on the 2nd song in Video #1. DAC #1 seems like it has a lighter presence (some use Airy as a description). I like DAC #2 for the tonal density (less airy). As well, I believe DAC #2 has more detail. |
We are voting on the DAC that compliments the XLF's, Gryphon electronics, SR cables and Jay's room. DAC #2 sounds more refined while remaining highly detailed. The XLF's (to my ears) have an extremely detailed, slightly forward and tilted up tonal balance. DAC #2 takes that slight edginess away from the presentation and to me is more musical. Two videos and two #2 votes for me. |
Jay, I defer to your experience that Antileon has a darker bassier sound than Essence. My only basis for comparison was your casual video of the Antileon with the phone mike. I couldn't evaluate the bass, but did hear more focus in midrange/HF with the Antileon. Right now with these A/B's, demo 1 and 2 are so close that with cable swapping, preferences could change. The stereo Mephisto was the best Gryphon amp you had. It was nice that it only needed one power cord. Try the stereo Boulder 1161 against the stereo Essence at similar modest prices. The 1161 offers a decent amount of power and might be best bang for the buck. |
@jays_audio_lab Jay, remember that in this hobby a large increase in amount spent does not equate to an equal ratio of SQ return. Therefore, if one has to add a power cord to a piece and said power cord is about a third or more of the price of the electronics, that will in no way guarantee that the electronics will increase in SQ by over 30%! In most cases (maybe all) a increase in cost by as much as 90+% will buy one an increase in SQ by maybe 10-15%! Seems like this ratio holds throughout the pricing structure of this hobby..for whatever reason? I do realize that folks aren't necessarily willing to accept that fact! But there you have it. |
When it comes to the Antileon Evo, you will get a ton more fullness and bottom end but remember the antileon is a darker sound. This is what made the antileon one of the most sought out power amps: it is more forgiving than other Gryphon amps. Do we want forgiving? Some say the Antileon Evo might be the best amp that Gryphon has ever made but that is for each person to decide. Currently, I’m listening to the constellation centaur monos with great results but they don’t slam or hit the bottom octaves like Gryphon. Actually, no amp that i have owned has deeper bass than Gryphon - period. Constellation has this way of gluing you to the chair but if you value massive dynamics then it’s not for you. I also can not try the Antileon Evo with my system because i don’t have two dragon powercords for it and i don’t think it’s fair to use hurricane powercords on it because they are not at the level of the dragon which is what I’m using with the Essence (antileon needs two 15a and essence needs one 20a) In short, if i wanted to do the same exercise with the antileon, I’d need to buy two dragon powercords with Msrp of $9800 each. Pretty crazy eh? I can tell you that the entire point of this shootout is to see what each DAC does with constant variables. Imagine if i had to buy MORE powercords or line conditioners just to make one dac get close to the other one? I mean, WHAT do we say to the person that is saving their money to buy the msb or DCs? Do we tell them that their DAC sounds just ok because they are using stock powercords? I’m not exactly content if i buy a component that costs a lot of money and then i also need to spend tons of money on cables or else it sounds like garbage? That’s unacceptable in my book. Let's say i bought the 100k msb select dac and i took it home and then i find out that the msb reference beats it because I'm using 2 ultra high end PCs on the msb reference? I'd be pretty damn pissed off. You mean to tell me now i gotta spend $20k on top of the $100k just to best the cheaper reference with upgraded powercords? That SHOULD NEVER BE THE CASE! That said, I've seen it and heard it in my room how some cheaper models outperform the more expensive siblings by adding upgraded powercords. |
Jay, Another issue to discuss which you mentioned is fatigue. I see your point that a less revealing component lets you listen longer without fatigue. But in my case, if I hear dull/veiled sound, I don't want to listen for any time at all. If my power quality is poor, the sound is so veiled that I turn the system off after a few seconds, and just go on to non audio activities. But when the system is exciting with great detail and revelation of the music, I am happy with just 20 min of listening. Also, I have observed that extended listening gets you used to the sound, so exciting things initially have less excitement later. This is true of live music as well. Even with everyday experiences, when you first open the door and go outside, the first breath of fresh air and sunlight create the most impact. |
chazzzy, Your changing preferences parallel my experience on this A/B project. This is a difficult exercise. There is a large price difference and we all want to make sure we come to reliable conclusions. Yet the differences between dac's are surprisingly small. That's why we are having trouble deciding and voting. I have felt for decades that digital component differences are much smaller than analog component differences. Phono cartridges are transducers like speakers, and their differences are as great as speakers. Digital technology is more sophisticated, and even budget CD players are excellent whereas budget MM cartridges are really bad compared to MC cartridges. On balance, we seem to agree that demo 2 has a richer, bolder, more dynamic sound compared to demo 1. If you evaluate drums with their predominantly dynamic bass tonality, demo 2 is definitely more true to life. But for upper midrange/HF instruments, or in the drum case, the subtle brushes and taps of the snare drum or cymbals where HF are important, I feel that demo 1 is slightly more accurate and lifelike. In a large space, spatiality is fully revealed with more HF presence, which I believe is more accurately done with demo 1. Guitars and pianos can be confusing to evaluate. In a small room, they sound big and more bass dominant, so if someone likes the sound of those instruments in a small room, then demo 2 would be preferable. But in a larger space, these instruments are more HF dominant and show their sparkle and brilliance, so demo 1 would be preferable. For me, demo 1 is still my choice. Regarding better amps, I did post that in the comparative videos, the Antileon is more accurate and lean than the Essence stereo. I suggested to Jay that the Antileon would be better for this A/B than the Essence, but I guess he was already deep into the preparations so he stuck with the Essence. I also think that eliminating the Pandora would produce even greater clarity, so using each dac direct would show the demo 1 and 2 differences even better. Each dac has its own volume control and preamp stage, so SPL's can be matched that way. I don't see the value of superimposing two preamp stages with the added veiling. For those who like the extra dynamics from preamp stages, the XLF is efficient and dynamic enough so extra preamp stages shouldn't be needed. |
This was close. To help with the comparison I downloaded song 1 on Qobuz to get a baseline reference. I also favorited Hanne Boel and saved her albums. Wonderful choice Jay or whoever recommended this song and artist. Well done! My initial instincts after a number of a/b back and forth comparions is to check the box for DAC #2. In my mind this was fairly clear. The luscious tonality, coupled with a vivid, and bold presentation would win the day for DAC #2. As I was preparing to cast my vote I went back to listen to DAC #1 one final time… and decided to hold off. I pondered things and then thought about calling this song a draw. There are just too many things both DACs do well. So I went in for one final listen to both DACs. The baseline Qobuz download was just too similar in many respects to DAC #2. On the original there is a thumping deep bass in the drums, as well as a very forward guitar ‘singing’ alongside Hanne Boel in ‘duo like’ manner. DAC #2 captures this in a manner superior to DAC #1 So once again I was ready to click the box for DAC #2 but before I cast my vote for DAC#2 I went to listen to DAC #1 once more to record some notes of it’s admirable performance. A loss albeit a close one to DAC #2. To my ears the presentation for DAC #1 is just a bit more laid back. The drums and guitar that are quite forward and bold on DAC #2’s presentation are more recessed here. DAC #1 is different than the reference Qobuz presentation I hear thru my headphones as well. DAC #1 simply does not capture the guitar and bold deep bass of the drums like DAC #2. What is also different though are the the subtle guitar harmonics and decay I hear. How they gracefully linger and then subtly fade. Such beautifully presented music. That little ‘something’ that catches your attention as you hear something previously unnoticed is here. As I continue to listen, the drums though not as bold, also have a slight resonance as their overtones hang in the air for a moment or 2 before decaying. To my ears the air around each instrument as well as the vocals are also superior to DAC #2. When comparing this to DAC #2’s rich, vivid, bold sound I understand what made me want to vote for DAC #2. However to my ears that ever so slight ethereal quality just seems to be missing. That little something that takes a piece over the top into SOTA. At any level I think what we all look for is that missing 3-5% in performance that takes us to the next level and that’s when I decided to cast my vote for DAC #1 once again. To my ears DAC #1 simply does the little things we want a top notch piece of gear in a system to do. Song #2 was a close but definitive victory for DAC #1. To my ears there is just that extra bit of air, decay, separation and because of these things an elegance and delicacy in it’s presentation that carries the day once again for DAC #1. And this in spite of DAC #2’s pleasing performance in other areas. In closing this I wonder how the presentation of both DACs would change for the better with a more upscale amplifier? The Essence is good but not anywhere near the best in the Gryphon family. Therefore I will be petitioning Jay for a rematch thru the Evo Antileon once the dust and discussion on this shootout clears over the course of the next few weeks. Would either or both of these DACs performance better in the areas they are lacking? Halfway thru the shootout the Scoreboard reads DAC #1 1.5 points – DAC #2 0 points |