Whitecamaross,thanks for response!I have noticed more of a differenceiin switching preamps more than amps also.Im stuck with a Intergra 80.3 processor that I use for both for awhile.You said earlier that you used a processor also for awhile.Did you ever get good sound using one or is a dedicated 2 channel pre worlds better?
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
An excellent amp typically withstands the test of time. For example, you can grab a pair of pass labs 600.5 monos which are at least a 15 year old design and pretty much kill a ton of new current amps. That said, with preamps it's very different. New offerings tend to dig deeper into the music and paint you a better picture. |
Interesting question. Hmmm let me see. I would say that changing a preamp is far more of an audible change than changing amp. For example, here are 2 possible set ups with relatively efficient speakers:I've come to this conclusion as well-for a few years now-a great preamp is more important than a great amp. This is particularly true when all other gear is at a very high level. With a very basic system-even though high end-there is less reason to focus on the preamp-it can be often be bypassed altogether with a DAC or similar that offers volume and input control. And at the very very high-end, some folks with great systems prefer minimalistic passive volume controls. Harry Weisfeld of VPI for example claims the best preamp is no preamp. But for most systems.... |
Interesting question. Hmmm let me see. I would say that changing a preamp is far more of an audible change than changing amp. For example, here are 2 possible set ups with relatively efficient speakers: 1. Audio research reference 6 preamp and emotiva sa250 amp 2. Oppo 105d as preamp and a pass Labs amp 350.8 i would say that if the speakers are the same, meaning something of about 93db+, the first set up may best the second set up. |
Yes, I admit it... I am poking fun at tubophrenes with my facile generalizations... I have experience with only two tube devices... ARC LS-2B hibrid linestage, and ARC REF3. LS-2B took about 800 hours to bloom and stabilize, and the single 6922 performed well for about 3K hours. ARC REF3 was a different story... Initial break-in about 500 hours. But while the 60H30 tubes lasted a good 2K hours before showing signs of sag, the 6550 in the power supply did take about 500 hours to break-in, but then at the 900 hours mark, the first audible sloppy signs of sag would creep in... So, nirvana was a relatively fleeting 400 hours per round... Not my cup of audible Heaven. G.
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Nirvana is but a fleeting moment before the next tube roll... You can't win... Oh well, tuboholic audiophrenia is A Harsh Mistress *Grins!*No, I wouldn't go that far. With the Ref150se/GS150 in particular and most other tube amps in general, the tubes break in fairly quickly (within a few hours) and the rest of the amp takes about 200 hours or so, and each usage is successive without falling back as you suggest. My Ref 150se is supposed to go 3000 hours on a set of healthy KT150's so let's be conservative and assume 2000 hours. Beak in is the first 10% of the first set of tubes and there is no break in of any significance with successive tubes. This is based on my experience over 10 years time with tube amps. |
Uck... Yes, I had forgotten the additional "suffering" of tuboholics.... Break-in calendar days is probably four times as long as solid state, and somewhat inpermanent... By the time solid state parts have stabilized have stabilized, tubes have started to sag... Nirvana is but a fleeting moment before the next tube roll... You can't win... Oh well, tuboholic audiophrenia is A Harsh Mistress *Grins!* G. amp has sta |
Have you considered breakin in the device 24 7 using a break-in CD, or even better, a radio tuner set to some FM interstation hash?You must be a solid state guy! You can't do that with tube amps. They get too hot and should be shut down after 6 hours or so. A small sacrifice to pay, among others, with tube vs. solid state. There are some exceptions with certain tubes like the Nu-vista's employed by Musical Fidelity and low current pre-amp tubes but most power amp output tubes need to be shut down. |
Hi Whitecamaross, at 35 hours into break-in, an amp is so far from its optimum performance that it is essentially impossible to tell what eventually it can do for living. Have you considered breakin in the device 24 7 using a break-in CD, or even better, a radio tuner set to some FM interstation hash? Let the amp run at low volume... DO not bother listening to it more than a couple times a week... In about a month it will start to show its character... In 2 or three weeks after that break-in will be complete and the device will show its true soul. G. |
35 hours into the gs150 and i think i will admit that this amp is transparent for sure. Some material sounds good and some other can be a bit bright at times when you crank up the volume around 90+ dbs. I am right now continuing this break in process a few hours a day. Time will tell what will happen. I also find it a tad congested at times when playing music with a ton of dynamics. After speaking to my dealer, he said it may be the preamp/amp combination. I may have to try either another amp with my ref 6 or another preamp with my gs150 and see which balance i like best. |
@whitecamaross & @4425 And to 4425s comment. I haven't heard the DartZeelstereo amp. But I did hear the mono blocks with the new preamp and Evolution Acoustics speakers. The source was a reel-to-reel tape deck playing Lines on My Face off of Frampton Comes Alive. All I can say was wow!!! I heard this at the Los Angeles Audio Show and it was one of three best systems that day. The mono's made such effortless power; they have a power meter on the front and they were making from just a few watts to over five hundred on peaks. It was really glorious. I know this is a different ballpark in terms of cost, but I would assume that the stereo amp would have a similar house sound. I kind of put it out of my mind since they are not in any realm of affordability for me. I can still hear that fine system in my head though. For reference, I really like ARC with Wilson. And I love all-Mbl systems too. |
Haven't read all the responses so if it's been mentioned my apologies. I think that you should see if you can get a Dartzeel NHB 108 to try in your system. By any definition it is considered one of the most musical amps ever made. Swiss build quality by a master designer. The Dartzeel's always resell when you can find one. If interested contact Jonathan Tinn at Blue Light Audio. He might have a demo and has always been great to me. Last word. In my humble opinion most people use far less juice than they think. Always remember that it takes twice the power to increase sound output by 3db. Too long winded I am but I think you'll love the Krell too. This series was great stuff. |
Hi Whitecamaross... Yes, you are right.. I have had the wonderful M925 monos in my system for a few years... Yes, I would say that my observations about Capri S2 break-in pattern also apply to the big M925 monos.... Somewhat elongated, though. My M925 monoblocks stabilized at about the 1500 hours mark. Amazing music they do make! I am not surprised at all by what you are experiencing on the GS-150. Seems to me that the first 500 hours of most devices I have had in my system have been rather bipolar... Thankfully all they need is more exercise... Lythium medication not needed for the component, and usually, neither for the suffering audiophrene who owns them. Regards, GUido |
Hi Guido, thanks for the feedback. It had read exactly what you described, but with jeff rowland 925 monos. With that said, i played about 10 hours of music last night on the gs150 and timer on the back says it has 19.2 hours total. That said, i just turned it on today and i find the sound "warmer" today. It feels as if someone turned down the treble a little (which is a good thing for me). Essentially 20 hours break in time so far and i now begin to ACTUALLY hear a change in sound. |
Hi Whitecamaross, the Rowland Capri S2 is a wonderful linestage... With proper break-in, it is incredibly dimensional, resolving, with just a hint of warmth... Break-in being the operative word. Capri S2, like other Rowland linestages that I am familiar with, take upwards of 600 hours of operating on actual signals to complete the major portion of breakin... With about 20% further breakin to complete over a total of about 1K hours since first sound. During the first half of break-in you are bound to exprience performance fluctuation.... One day sweet, and perhaps the next day harsh/dark/flat.... Observing this evolving behavior will be fascinating, Yet, venturing conclusions prior to complete break-in tends to be premature and prone to inaccuracies. Capri draws approximately 6W in class A. The device is sensitive to power cords... Avoid certain PCs especially designed for high power amps, as they might have some capacitance that might make Capri S2 caramelize the tone and microdynamics. Shunyata Alpha and Cardas Clear should work well. Regards, Guido
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My point exactly. Break in is important and I have no plans of selling my arc gear anytime soon. Although I still find it a tad bright, it still sounds pretty amazing. Also, one thing that needs to be understood is that my mission here is to try and report to you all and disclose my battles and opinions about what I think about each component that sits on my floor. I'm not planing to marry any of this. I don't keep anything forever. The only component that sat in my living room the longest was the Martin Logan renaissance. Más much as I loved them, it was time to try something else. I'm clear on the fact that in order for me to improve upon my speakers it would take a lot more money and even then I'd have to begin to think about room treatments, etc. You all should just take my journey and write down my thoughts about a particular component you may be interested in and that I've already reviewed. Think of my thread as another source of information besides the typical lies of magazines that always claim every component is amazing. |
whitecamaross I am going to running a very interesting experiment in about 10 days or so. I purchased a monster krell 403e and since krell stated in the manual that tube preamps arent recommended due to the dc current tubes pass ...It isn't clear what you're trying to say here, because only a severely defective audio component passes DC. |
Ok guys. I am going to running a very interesting experiment in about 10 days or so. I purchased a monster krell 403e and since krell stated in the manual that tube preamps arent recommended due to the dc current tubes pass, damage to speakers can occur with krell amps due to krells own design. That said, I decided to bring a high quality solid state preamp for the krell. I just ordered the Jeff Rowland Capri s2 which is supposed to be spectacular. The goal here will be to do a shoot out of all tubes vs all solid state. Basically an audio research ref6 and gs150 amp versus a krell 403e with a Jeff Rowland preamp and see what combination will bring the best out of my speakers. Of course, the audio research gs150 still needs to be broken in so I will continue doing so. As many of you know, the krell 403e is dan agostinos design before he left krell and I’ve heard from several people that it actually is a much better amo than the current classic series amp from the agostino line. In other words, that amp is no joke. |
I am thinking the same thing. i have been reading different forums on audio research tube amps as a whole and some say 100 hours break in, others say 200 hrs etc. My thing is that you also need to realize that it could also be your ears getting used to the sound and not necessarily the amp changing sound. That said, i am going to just let it play and play and i am also going to be bringing my mcintosh c50 preamp which is solid state and see what happens to the sound as a whole. Just to see if maybe the amp would benefit from a solid state preamp in order to smooth things out a little. Another preamp i am almost tempted to buy is the Esoteric C1, but it is quite a big investment without knowing what will happen to the sound. |
Yes, the GS150 should be plugged directly into the wall. Still unclear on the preamp-are you running preamp-less? Are you running the GamuT as a cdp or are you using the digital out into the Oppo or some other dac? I realize that you've had many other amps in the same system but something has to account for the perceived brightness other than the GS150. I am sorry to sound critical, but I think you could do much better in terms of your digital front ends though I certainly think the N100H is great- just the rest.... The GS150 also greatly benefits from a Shunyata HC 20A PC and I saw that you're presently stuck with the stock cord. I am using the stock cord too right now but hope to get my hands on the Shunyata soon. |
Sources are the Rerence Gamut CD Player, Aurender N100H going into a Oppo 205 player. I also have a Sony HAP network player. i don't have a dedicated room, but i have a fairly large living room. I sit 13 feet away from my speakers and the are about 9 feet apart. That said, i just plugged the GS150 into the outlet directly. I also might need to perhaps begin to play with the toe in of my Cremonese to see if that helps a little with the highs. |
Update on my GS150: i have been listening to this amp for about 2 hours today and i can't put my finger on it, but i find it somewhat "bright" sounding. It almost makes you not able to crank up the music because of the brightness.Do me a favor Whitecamaross and tell me what your source and preamp are and a brief description of your listening room? If you've listed elsewhere in this long thread, I've missed it. Do you have a dedicated two channel room with no flat panel and instead (optimally) a semi-absorbent panel between your speakers on the front wall? With my three sources and my new Ref 6 and Ref 150se I am having no trouble with brightness. Two of my sources are turntables and my digital is an Aurender N100H into an Abbingdon Music Research DP777. I have the uppermost Wireworld USB (Starlight Platinum or something like that-came in quite the fancy aluminum case) into an UpTone Regen with separate linear power supply. I don't claim to be the expert of experts as to component matching but tell me your source, preamp and room description with cabling and I can make an educated guess as to why you're hearing brightness. ARC gear in general ever so slightly attenuates brightness, not the other way around, so something does not make sense. |
GS150 update: i can’t believe how loud this amp will play. I can't even dare to crank it up as loud as it will go because it is already too loud. To those of you who think 150 watts isn’t enough, you may want to rethink that. I can’t even go past 30 on the volume on my audio research reference 6 preamp because it is scary loud. |
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Update on my GS150: i have been listening to this amp for about 2 hours today and i can't put my finger on it, but i find it somewhat "bright" sounding. It almost makes you not able to crank up the music because of the brightness. That said, if listening a low volumes is something that someone would do all the time then this amp would reward you. However, certain songs seem to be a little too sparkly and some other songs sound fine. For example, i played some reggae to gauge the bass and low end punch and it sounded pretty good. Nothing really sounded bright, but when i play some Lynyrd Skynyrd, some songs can sound a bit shouty and not too pleasant. Again, these are my initial impressions so maybe things change with time. |
As far as how it sounds for home theater, i will be very honest here and say that IF YOU ARE MORE HOME THEATER than music, do yourself a favor and buy class d amps. They simply do the job really well with plenty of power and dynamics and for very little money with no heat. The only thing that i warn you all about is that class d technology changes rapidly and the resale value really gets hurt. For example, if you were to buy a pass labs amp for your home theater instead of a class d amp, you have to accommodate for its size, heat production, weight, etc. It can be painful, but when it is time to part ways with it, you will certainly get at least half of the money you invested in pass labs (with a few exceptions of course), but with class d things are different. You buy a class d amp today and in 6 months there is a new class d module and now your amps lose terrible value. Buying class d amps is no different than buying a computer. Go to best buy today and buy a 3,000 dollar machine and then go back to best buy in 6 months and now your 3,000 laptop is worth much less because there is a better computer than yours that costs even less. Again, class d changes too rapidly and that is why i choose to stick with solid state and tube amps. Those technologies really don't change much so there will always be a buyer for solid state and tube amps. |
I'm curious as well about the ATI AT5X... class d amps as well. I'm hearing great things about them. The ATI AT54X... amps are rated for 500 watts/channel, while the AT52X... amps are 200 watts/channel. I'm thinking about trying an ATA AT543... to see how it does for the front three channels of my HT. Dave |
Thanks for the feeeback fsonicsmith. I will keep everything in mind in regards to your input. I love it the amp at times and not so much other times. It could be me being tired perhaps and not having rested ears. Not sure yet. That said, I can confirm this amp sounds better than my 350.8 does with the sonus fabers. It has plenty of clarity and detail and does so much right. I'll keep trying to let it break in for a few more months and then see what turns out. I will also attempt to find another solid state amp and see if there's one that can give this amp a run for the money. I thought about a pair of krell 900e monos or Jeff Rowland 925s but I'm not quiet sure. I almost bought a constellation centaur stereo amp as well but that deal fell through. |
As someone else in this thread accurately predicted, here is an authorized dealer boldly selling band new GS150's at a steep discount. Keep in mind ARC strictly forbids authorized dealers from giving more than an 8% discount UNLESS the product is being discontinued. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/tube-audio-research-gs150-amplifier-new-and-sealed-3-year-factory-... Damn, it's such a beautiful amp! |
Whitecamaross- I missed your McIntosh trial but certainly the vast, vast majority of your journey has been with DC coupled amps and not transformer coupled. As to the latter, ARC advises to ignore the rated impedance of your speaker and try for yourself. The "advice and tips" section of the ARC website is very concise, easy to read, and worthwhile. Impedance curves and phase angles are not linear and is the primary reason that there is an art to matching loudspeaker to an amp. As to the GS150, it will take you for a ride for 200-400 hours before it settles in. There are a boatload of caps in the GS150 and even trannies have to settle in a bit. I fired up my Ref 150se for the first time last night with my Ref 6. The sound over four hours time swung from glorious and detailed with information conveyed that I had never heard before in familiar recordings to a bit hard and rough. At times low end bass was taut and at others, a bit one-note. I heard a huge soundstage at some times and a less pleasant Phil Spector Wall of Sound at others. Clicks and pops on vinyl were a bit startling in their speed and clarity. One of my KT150's is not checking out on my trusty fluke meter as being in the correct range but it is close enough to be operational. KT150s are known to drift all over the place despite careful matching until they have a chance to burn in a bit and even then they can be a pain. ARC may disagree, but I have read elsewhere that a good multimeter (like a Fluke) will render far more accurate readings than using the built-in meters. Again, tube amps require quite a bit more attention than SS. It's like vinyl vs. digital. Want convenience? Stick with digital. But in our hobby there is no getting around the need for some maintenace- cleaning and dressing cable terminations once a year for example. I may have to replace a pair or two of KT150's. Let me repeat-your GS150 will be a roller coaster for an average of two months of regular listening before it's really in it's true "on-song" state as the Brits call it. You say you used to be into muscle cars. The analogy would be that at the highest levels of performance, computer modules, spark plugs, and fuel delivery must be constantly tinkered with. It's not quite that bad with tube amps once you break in the amp. |
@whitecamaross Let me just say, I've truly enjoyed following your thread. I'm sure many others do too but just do not post. The fact you've done all you've done, spent all you've spent, and continually updated this post just because of your love for this hobby is a thing of character. And I really appreciate that. And the fact you report like you hear, that is what we want. We don't need anymore "professional" reviews. Tell it like it is. Rock on! |
Thanks david_ten. It’s certainly not easy to do this. It takes patience and constantly taking apart the rack shelf to fit new gear plus rerouting cables etc. Indeed, it’s not for everyone what I do. Lifting monster pass labs amps out of their boxes all by myself has left me with battle scars on my hands and forearms from the sharp heatsinks plus a few herniated disks. That said, it’s still a good feeling that I continue to enjoy until that day arrives when I’ll feel like I’m done with it. I was very much into muscle cars for many years but i can’t spend a full weekend working on engines and exhaust systems and not spend time with my family. I realized that I couldn’t continue such long hours on my back turning wrenches so I put that part of my life to rest. I’ve always enjoyed music and I took it to another level once I had put the wrenches away. I enjoy this hobby because it truely doesn’t take anywhere near as much time as working on cars did. I’ve always had hobbies and feel it’s extremely important to have one otherwise life could get boring. I couldn’t be happy if my life was all work work, come home, eat, shower and go to sleep and repeat again and have zero pleasure. That to me isn’t living. To live doesn’t mean you are alive. Being alive is actually enjoying your life with whatever brings you joy. |
I'd be fatigued with all of the ongoing critical listening. Add to the mix: Too much of a good thing, and too many good things. Put this on repeat. Yes, I'd be fatigued. And likely unsatisfied. Thoughts? whitecamaross: I enjoy your thread...so the above is not meant negatively, just postulating where I'd likely be if I did what you do. |
Thanks for the feedback. I now always say try to pause from passing a judgment quite fast on any amp. I need to listen at night, day, afternoon and try to be rested. Preferably without having used any sort of headphones before. The less exposure your ears have had to music from a car or iPhone headphones etc, the less tired your ears will be. As far as powercords, I'll have to order one because as you know audio research has these 20a power cords on one end of the cable so my aftermarket powercord won't work which is a pain. At this time, I'm shocked that the 8ohm taps have more volume and more sparkle than the 4ohm. |
Totally agree with that camaro. My best listening time is late at night (less AC noise and RF from cell phones), but when I am totally rested. Mornings can work too. Being rested is the key. Give the GF150 more time and try changing power cords to suit and see if things stabilize. I would not be surprised, however, if the GF150 maintains its overall stance toward neutrality and is more critical of poor recordings than a more forgiving amp. There is often a price to pay for superior resolution. Dave |
VERY IMPORTANT TIP: I know some of you might not believe this but you need to try this tip and report back to me. Anyhow, I didn’t believe this until I spoke to a fellow audiophile who’s a doctor. He said to me about 4 months back to try to do critical listening in the morning after a full night of sleep. He said that at night after a long day of work, the human brain starts to shut down all your senses. Think of it like this, ever noticed how your vision gets blurry at night when you’re tired and you start to rub your eyes ? That’s your brain signaling and beginning to shut down your senses so you can go to sleep. Well it does the same thing to your ears by beginning to tune out noises in order to make you fall asleep. This in turn makes you hear less efficiently at night. Makes sense right ? So next time you do some critical listening, try to do it in the morning after you are fully rested and you may find the true sound of your current set up. You’ll thank me ;) |
