Jay, thank you for answering my question in the video.
Now you are making me want either a second M900u, or a C900u to run the M900u I just bought (don't have yet).
Well, I still need to hear this stuff in my own system, and I can't afford to buy everything now anyway! |
As good as the Luxman M900u amp is, I heard and also read its partner the C900u is an even better piece... Your last preamp shootout just prooved this. 😃
The Dag fanboys must be scratching their head right now.
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I think i must have pissed some people off with my findings :)
Some of the comments are indeed correct, but extremist. For instance, cable footers, or a stand for each amplifier i own or a different power cord for each amp i own. Catch my drift?
Anyhow, i believe there might have been some "momentum" or "ayre" lovers that were butt-hurt after i selected the Luxman, but THAT IS WHAT I WILL DO. I will say what i hear in MY SPACE and if it ticks people off then either deal with it or don’t listen to my findings.
We can all agree that at some point we all need to hit the brakes with this hobby. We all need to draw the line somewhere and you HAVE NOOOO IDEA how many times i have been told " oh no i would never spend $5,000 dollars on a powercord Jay", but i am supposed to buy a stand for each amp i bring? :)
Some people take this to the extreme, but what they don’t quite realize is that they are trying to dial in THEIR single amplifier with the only preamp they have and the only set of speakers they have owned for the last 24 months. Of course it is easy to do it in that scenario, but how in the world AM I SUPPOSED to do the same with so much gear here?
Am i supposed to chase 10 sets of power cords for all the amps and then 10 speaker cables (i tried cardas, don’t get me started on that topic) and then buy a different stand for each amp i own ? So let’s say i did buy all of those different cables and stands, HOW IN THE WORLD can i sustain so many shootouts with so many cables, stands, xlr, etc, etc? when do i finish?
That is why it is important to keep things into perspective and as simple as possible. If a $10,000 stand is going to make an amplifier go from a C grade to an A in terms of sound then maybe i am in the wrong hobby and i should be buying $30,000 dollar racks and stands and cable lifters and just stick to $1500 dollar emotiva, parasound and Bob Carver amps ? (no offense)
Lastly, THIS IS ABOUT SYNERGY people. i have been saying this all along and RIGHT NOW the luxman and Gryphon sound extremely good. As a matter of fact, the Luxman 900u preamp sounds better with the Gryphon than the Gryphon did with the Gryphon Zena preamp!!
Let’s not forget that this entire situation might completely turn around once i do the FULL momentum set up here. Mix and matching is GAMBLING in many cases as you have seen on the video i posted, but it is still part of the fun.
I will probably have to put out a video addressing this above so people can understand where i am coming from.
I am JUST GETTING STARTED with the momentum stuff. i have yet to try odin power cords, different xlr, plug it into the Niagara 5000, use the dac direct into the momentum s250, etc, etc. Soooo much more ahead of me. |
Lol ... Yep.. how about that luxman c900u huh ? |
Jay Is giggling right now, watching us guess, lol. |
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the zaks,
Usually or quite often, if HF are subdued, this gives more relative prominence to the voice, which is centered in the midrange. We agree about #2 showing "the vocal forward at the expense of everything else." Since the Ayre has more HF emphasis than the Lux, #2 is more likely to be the Lux, although we don't yet know the relative character of the Dag preamp.
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Some experienced reviewer once commented that the major difference among top preamps is the upper midrange. Interesting that this quality can be heard in a YouTube video through computer speakers. On the other hand, the computer simulation does not relate qualities of the virtual soundstage - may need Jay to comment on that.
Guessing #1 is Ayre.
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Jay, I believe you mentioned that you use the Vivaldi to stream with. I could be wrong. After ready up some I did not see that it had an app like naim or nad do to stream tidal, iTunes, etc while using their mobile device to control it. I’m sure you can hook up a roon( which I dropped after the trial period, just couldn’t figure it out, and didn’t have the patience to learn) or an NAS, though I don’t follow how those work either. I could have misunderstood what you said, but if it does, that would really be great, or I’ll have to use a naim streamer etc with it |
coming today...the reveal.. |
viber6 - I agree about the detail in the twang of the guitar on #1, which I was also enjoying. Just not sure about the vocals though. I think it would be a matter of taste between #1 and #3. #2 seems to put the vocal forward at the expense of everything else.
Looking forward to WC’s reveal :-) |
The latest video with the Gryphon shows brilliant sound with all 3. The brilliant recording with the guitar intro helps. On my iMac, all three are surprisingly close, which accounts for different objective descriptions by different listeners. My top choice is #1, for its greatest detail in the twang of the guitar. The voice is a little raw, but I believe it is accurate, and the others (#2, #3) sugar coat the voice a little. Maybe #2 has the most sugar. I will stick my neck out and say #1 is the DCS direct without any preamp. If I am wrong, then whichever preamp it is, let this preamp do a shootout with the DCS direct to see which setup is the most transparent.
If you are coming to value neutrality/clarity/transparency, then the Benchmark AHB2 with or without its LA4 preamp, is nearly the best on an absolute basis, and the best value. Don't be prejudiced against it because it doesn't have audiophile pedigree and is so cheap that your dealer contacts sneer at it. I am not an unquestioning Benchmark fanboy, since they deny that more expensive audiophile cables are better than their Canare pro cables. I've used Canare.
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Teasing us with new toys when you still havnt told us what the last ones were.
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Wrapping things up here. Listened to the momentum set up for 3 hours , 47 min straight. Stay tuned, lots of feedback coming. |
Great question. I'll address that during my next video. |
Jay, you've said many times that the m-900u is the best bang for your buck. You've pitted it against the heavy hitters.
But I don't think you've ever dropped the price qualifier and given your opinion straight up against the big players.
How would you characterize the differences? What do you "give up" if you buy the luxman instead of the momentum stereo, for example?
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I thought that 1 sounded decent at the beginning, until the voice came in - very distant it seemed. Then 2 was better on the voice - more presence, but didn't have as much otherwise. I ended up liking 3 the best - the best balance for both instruments and voice.
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Yep.. which one did you all like from the video ? |
I agree jay. The problem is that I’m not sure they believe, or want to believe, that other product work better. I havnt yet heard the P20, and it seems you feel it did less than the review I read. The SR power cell did make an audible and noticeable difference, so that one I can attest to first hand. I know different people hear different things when it comes to some equipment, as your most recent video proves. While most agreed that number 3 was best, with only one person I saw who didn’t care for it, there was not a conscious on the other two. |
And while you’re doing that, might want to check to see if they have patents covering what you want to “borrow” |
whitecamaross - what you were discussing is called reverse engineering. That is - taking apart an existing product to determine how it was make - what materials were used, how it was constructed and whatever else is significant. |
If you are going to bring Shunyata V2 cables in, you should also give the latest conditioners a shot at some point. I have the Denali 6000/s V2 and it made quite a difference in my system.
Also, it's insanely expensive, but the Omega power cable is supposed to be mind-blowing on amps. Since amps are your main focus..
Plus there is a new Everest conditioner coming soon. Lots of toys. |
Power is different depending on where you live and your situation - you can't ascribe differences between filtering vs. regeneration vs. iso transformers without trying them in your own house. |
@techno....yes that cable will make an entrance here at some point. I almost bought it last week, but i need to have content for the future lol...
i actually have MANY who tell me i go through gear too fast and don't give it too much time to settle in, or that i need to have it for a few months, etc, etc. IF I held on to gear for months in order to give my thoughts we would be on page 20 of this thread and STILL working through Bryston amps.... just saying.. |
I have tried the P20 from ps audio and after i tried the Shunyata Denali 6000T and Audioquest Niagara 5000 i realized the Ps Audio P20 is nothing else more than a great power surge protector. I believe my perception of "change" in sound was merely psychological which was confirmed once i used the power conditioners mentioned above.
To me, the P20 is just a prettier chassis than the Furman 20i, but they both do about the same in regards to sound improvements.
I DO NOT understand WHY manufacturers don't look at other companies to understand WHAT they do to succeed at certain things. For example, if i am a cable manufacturer and want to make better power cords, i would buy a nordost odin 1, Audioquest Dragon or Hurricane and dissect them and see what they did so i can get ideas on how to improve my own products. Listen, this is NO DIFFERENT than if you are trying to pass an exam and can't seem to pass it and you finally realize you need to pass so you need to find out what the hell your class mate did to pass it.
Where did he study? what book did he read? does he have material you can borrow so you can do better? At one point you gotta give up if you are not cutting it with a certain component. i actually have given this feedback to a few manufacturers but when you do that they feel offended or look at you with this face like you insulted them rather than seeing it as constructive criticism. Look i get it, you should aim for innovation, but if that is not happening then grab ideas (it does not mean you have to copy everything). Study the product from other manufacturers and see what the hell they do to remain successful.
As smart as Paul Mcgowan is, i don't understand WHY he has not done this by now. However, you can lead the horse to the water, but you can't make him drink it. |
I auditioned and purchased the Synergistic Research Power Cell SRX with their Galileo power cord yesterday. I read a review online that pitched this against the PSA product and a different brand that uses magnetics. I feel most people over state the differences they hear. I have been a sceptic about Expensive cords,and maybe I still am, only had time to listen to this one product. Once we switched a couple of time, I noticed a background hiss between notes, that was appear to because of its total absence with the power cell running. Obviously this his wasn’t huge since I had not noticed it before, but we were listening at fairly low levels compared to my normal, so it’s possible would have been more noticeable if louder. I also noticed a bit more impact and punch I. The highs and lows, and likely through the whole range if I had more time to listen. At the low volume levels, the fact that it was apparent got my interest. I did end up purchasing the unit, and I suppose I may be headed down the road of high end cables, interconnects etc, after I find time to audition those. Some sources, Audioholics is the main one I can think of, feel it’s all snake oil. Again, I was skeptical to say the least, and truly expected to not hear a difference as I did not many 15 years ago when I first started on the high end journey. I also just purchased the PSA P20 thinking that even if there was no sound improve the, I would have great surge protection and will experiment with that in line before and after the Power Cell at the outlet. I wonder if Jay has tried this product and how he felt it worked for him if so. |
#1 sounds like "hifi" sound - i'm sure some will prefer it however.
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WC, you should borrow your dealer the all new Shunyata Reference Sigma NR V2 powercord and try it on the dcS Vivaldi. Nothing to loose. Maybe this is the one that could beat the Odin 2.
It is said to be a game changer as to the live feeling of music, to make everything sound more real. |
#1 and #3 sounded very similar. #2 sounded rounder, a little softer, less distinct. Depending on the in-room experience (vs. the long chain via which we're hearing these samples), this could be a good thing or a bad thing. For example, more distinct could become a little etched. But not through AudioEngine computer speakers. |
If I were to bet, I’d bet that number three was the Vivaldi direct based on one of your comments that if you want great sound, buy a world class dac. Will be intresting to find out if that’s the case or not. I’m secretly hoping the ayre was the number three since I just purchased one, lol. |
Thanks for this Guido. Interesting thoughts.
Lots and lots of it interesting comments on my YouTube channel as well. There's a feeling that people like number 3 and then number 1 with number 2 being last ? Not sure but that's what I gather from the comments.
You are all in for a treat once I disclose what each component was :) |
In descending order of preference for the three systems:
#3 -- Greatest harmonic complexity in guitar. Greatest clarity in enunciation of lyrics. Also the most emotionally involving... Seems to have more microdynamics than the other ones, and greatest sense of space.
#1 -- Nice harmonics and atmosphere, but lyrics are not quite as crisp as #3.
#2 -- Nice sense of the droning bass note, but overall I found that my attention was wandering... It sounded smooth, but not emotionally involving.
Saluti, Guido
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Hi WC, we emailed last year about my xp-30 and since I finally did sell my XP-30 and have moved to dac direct, I wholeheartedly agree with your comments regarding pre/no pre. A couple of quick questions about your last couple videos.....What are you now using for a source/streamer? And what connection method? What cable? By the way, based on your videos I auditioned Wireworld speaker cables and went with the silver eclipse 8 (affordable, great value). Probably try their interconnects next. Thx for your insights and hard work. Much appreciated.
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# 3 sounding the most real and captivating.
# 2 kind of holding some middle ground,
# 1 is certainly ultra detailed almost surreal but 'over-euphonic' if that is a/the word 😊.
# 1 sound somehow too 'new', not all settled in maybe, but in total all are very exceptional sounding sets for sure.
— What Watt/Puppies are those, if I may ask please? Version 7 ?
Sorry, I'm a bit behind the curve... 😏
😘
Michélle 🇿🇦
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@mrdecibel, none taken! I learned something and look to hear it...I try to listen to everyone like I try to listen to music... |
3 and 1 close.
2 a distant 3rd place, veiled.
3 seemed clearest but perhaps could get little fatiguing so I might pick 1 but would need to hear longer to see if 3 was a 2 minute wonder and still sounded good an hour iater |
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Jay, I noticed the Luxmans went up for sale. I believe that a lead in to what the video may fortell |
wym2, meant no harm in what I said....it is all good....Tim Stinson, is " the man ", behind Luminous........ |
Tonight's final shootout for the luxman separates. This will be the final video for luxman on my channel for the time being. As promised:
Gryphon Colosseum with Ayre KXR TWENTY and with Luxman C900u.
Vídeo to come tonight |
I don't have a favorite...I've neither heard the Walker Axiom nor the new Allegri. I do have the Allegri + which is to me a wonderful unit and a welcome difference from my preamps. And now that the output from DACs and streamers is more than enough to drive quality amps WC has, I thought he too might enjoy the comparison. When I've heard it, I liked and enjoyed the Axiom too. Next time, I hope I'll remember to listen, as you do, for those leading edges...thanks. |
So have you all ever wondered how much different are the Dan D Progression Stere & Preamp combo in comparison to the Momentum S250 & Momentum HD Preamp? Don't guess anymore. Here are my thoughts:
1. Progression is smooth, controlled and musical
2. Momentum is clearer, purer, more detailed, livelier, BIGGER BOLDER BOTTOM END, bigger soundstage, prettier. FAR FAR SUPERIOR to the Progression stereo/preamp combo in every regard.
THE END |
I understand the benefits of a passive unit using autoformers, such as the Townsend, but to my ears, I prefer my Luminous Audio unit. I find autoformers " soften " the leading edge of the musicianship, and I want to say, this is my personal take, and preference, between the 2 designs...to each his / her own..... ymmv...My favorite tube amps, are OTL, such as Atma-Sphere, and why I am not a fan of many Mcintosh power amps, those using autoformers. We all like, what we like. |
@WC In keeping with your audio itch that perhaps the preamp may be standing in the way of a more fulfilling music experience of your great gear, I suggest that you might find passive preamps another ”road not taken”. And here I suggest you look into and even audition the extraordinary Townsend Audio Allegri + and now, recently, the more useful Allegri Reference which allows remote passive .5db volume control.
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i am currently contemplating a clock, but more and more amps and preamps keep arriving....
Dag Progression Stereo Amp and Progression Preamp
VS
Dag Momentum S250 and Momentum HD Preamp
My thoughts to come soon. |
Hi WC - I’ve followed your journey with great interest for the past couple of years and have vicariously enjoyed the ride! Like many, I’ve done my version of said ride albeit at a bit lower level. I don’t know if it has been previously suggested or discussed but I greatly encourage you to hear the Vivaldi Clock in your system, if you haven’t already. I had my Vivaldi One for a few weeks and loved it but my dealer (that would be audio dealer!) gave me a great price on a Vivaldi Clock he had taken in trade. It is easily one of the best moves I’ve made in my quest for “better sound.” It brought more of everything that drew me to the Vivaldi One, i.e., tonal richness, detail, holographic soundstage. I could go on and I will, just a little! If I were to quantify it, I’d say it added another 25% in sonic value to my system and once heard there was no way it was leaving! If you have heard it and didn’t find it captivating, let me say in the words of Emily Litella, “never mind!” Be well! |
I will give my impressions of the Dag Progression stereo amp and matching Progression preamp VS the momentum s250 and HD preamp. |
My guess is the Gryphon is the best amp you have for the purity and clarity that you now value. As long as you don't use the Cardas speaker cable which has the least clarity and causes hum anyway. You will probably come to the same conclusion that any preamp is a step backwards, with either Lux or Gryphon amps. So yes, I look forward to your shootout among preamps with the Gryphon. Then with the most transparent preamp, do the final shootout between DCS+preamp+Gryphon (or even Dag amp) and DCS+Gryphon (or Dag amp).
I like silver for everything. Does anyone want black coins for money in their pocket? LOL. |
