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Sorry, not feelin’ it.
They sound small, thin and muddy to me.
They performed worse on this song than the first, by a significant margin. Just my opinion of course |
I like what I hear so far. The sound is leaner, crisper and less full than the Wilson. The guitar twangs are particularly tighter. My tastes in music are away from deep bass, and towards small groups like chamber music, string instruments like guitar, violins, etc. Maybe the smaller sound with thinness is exacerbated by the small computer speakers on my iMac. I get the feeling that the overall sound in WC's room is fuller than on the video heard on my computer. I'd like to hear from people who know Wilsons and can compare to what they hear on their modest computer audio. Still, it is premature to compare the new speaker to the Wilson, because of positioning and break in effects.
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TRUST ME, IT WILL IMPROVE |
Sure, makes sense. Didn’t expect it to compete but some here and on YT said best ever (which is fine if that’s really what they think) and I’m thinking, uh let’s not get carried away here - it’s fine but not close to DAW to my ears.
Will be interesting to hear it improve.
Might be fun if you list 5 options and let us guess what it is. |
A couple of things :
-I really don’t like taking advantage of manufacturers who allow you to do in home trials when I know I’m only interested in hearing the product and and then return it. To me, I would only do this if I know for sure I am contemplating buying it for myself (which isn’t the case).
- The speaker I played today is NOT BROKEN IN, improperly positioned (did this so you all couldn’t see it on video) and needs more tweaking.
The purpose of this, is so we can start from the bottom with it and gradually get it to sound better and better as we go forward so we can watch it "evolve" before our eyes. This is the only way we can appreciate the journey. NOTHING, NOT ONE SINGLE COMPONENT hits the ground running in ANY SYSTEM PERIOD. I DONT CARE HOW MUCH EXPERIENCE YOU HAVE. Anytime you introduce a new component (especially speakers) you must slowly begin to make changes and tweaks elsewhere in order to maximize its performance.
Lastly, the intent here is so you can gauge how good a sub 10k speaker can sound (after we take time to fine tune it ) with some of the finest electronics available. It was never intended to battle my Sasha DAW, but rather show us what 10k can get us so we all can say " wow, yes it’s not the Daw but damn for 10k I would be damn happy with that performance".
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I probably wasn’t clear and didn’t describe it well.
What I meant to say is the guitar string slides are really prominent in the Keith Don’t Go song (I said recording above but meant that to mean generally not just in this particular video of mystery speakers- can see why my statement was confusing when I reread it).
With the mystery speaker they don’t sound nearly as crisp vs the DAW, but that’s just one example.
Stated another way, they sound much more realistic on the DAW
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Edit: ok here is what I mean. Listen to the fingers sliding over the guitar strings. They are really prominent in this recording. Now go listen to that same portion in vids where DAWs playing. Big difference - much sharper. Also when the lyrics start initially I sense a bit of sluggishness in the presentation. IMO I call that FULL sounding, instead of being thin . They are still very sharp and quick with the transients , but Full sounding .
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They don’t sound smaller to me , but they do not sound as 3d as i have heard from his other speakers . They are more forward sounding.,But with some Sistrum Apprentice platforms under them , better placement and once broken in , I’ll bet they open up and sound more dimensional. If they are Tekton , they do much better with 3d sound if toed in some
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Well I am listening just on an iPhone at work. Haha, gimme a break!! I’ll give it a better listen when I have time.
Edit: ok here is what I mean. Listen to the fingers sliding over the guitar strings. They are really prominent in this recording. Now go listen to that same portion in vids where DAWs playing. Big difference - much crisper. Also when the lyrics start initially I sense a bit of sluggishness in the presentation.
The best part of the song (IMO) actually comes about 20 seconds after the video ends (unfortunately) and I wish WC would have let run a little longer because that riff that we just miss is really awesome with dynamic swings. Oh well...
Just my opinion though. WC asks us to tell him what we hear. I won’t fault anyone for disagreeing if you hear it differently. It’s all good |
Yes, grey, I am with you, as I cannot fault them, with transients and dynamics. But, as Kren says, they sound much smaller. |
@kren0006
I am not sure what you are listening to , but sluggish ...NO Way .
They are Very Clear with fast transients and very Dynamic. At least that is what I hear |
Nothing I have heard on WC’s videos, compares to what I am hearing in my own listening room. I am sure, this is due, to the limitations of YouTube, and, my laptop system. The Wilson’s, no doubt, sound more open and spacious, than these do....so far....... |
Whatever they are, not in same zip code of the DAWs. To be expected given cost difference I suppose, or at least not surprising.
Compared to DAW, sounded smaller and also more sluggish (not as agile). Just my opinion. |
Ron 17.....anyone who buys a product, with an in home trial, and a money back guarantee, is doing exactly that ( reviewing and analyzing ), except, they are doing it, for themselves. WC is a human being, and you are making him sound like he is not. Just my opinion, again.....no need to harp on it any more. Always, and Enjoy ! |
Tekton is my guess, although, not hearing them, I can only base it, on how they are described, by those who have heard / own them. |
I have the ulferberhts myself as mains and center in the home theater and have ordered the moabs for rears. |
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Wow,
Those sound Freaking Awesome.!
The best sound yet IMO
Clarity , fullness and dynamics in spades !
At least that is what I hear on my computer system |
What I'm saying is I don't think Jay would ever buy a speaker for the purpose of reviewing it knowing he was going to send it back for a full refund less shipping.....Sounds a little unethical to me.
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ron, I disagree. There is a return policy, for a reason. WC would send them back, within the return period, if he did not like them. He does hold on to some stuff for more than 60 days ( the Wilson's, as an example ). He does borrow gear, on occasion. Only a handful of folks, based on all that I have read, have sent back Tekton speakers. |
Knowing Jay for many years, no way he would take advantage of a return policy to review a speaker then send it back for a refund...not that kinda guy.
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@riaa.......that size and weight, would not bother me........you might be the only person who has the bigger audio equipment addiction, over wc......he, at least, " opens and plays ", with the gear.....lol...... |
You can have my Tekton Encores MR D :) Not sure what I was thinking. Almost as Tall as me and 145 Pounds each. My back cringes just looking at the unopened boxes....get em outta here!! LOL |
Speaking of Tekton, if you read those threads, many folks, including professional reviewers, replaced 30K speakers with the DIs. Now, you have models above those, in which DI owners, have upgraded to. If WC does get the CW 4s, I feel he will be hearing a speaker, that can still use some work ( damping the horns ( mids and tweets ), cabinets, woofer frames, and a few other tweaks, that I know, will get them to another level ). I am guessing the Tekton Ulfs or Encores, as WC wants something that is changing the market, and Tekton, is that company ( yes, this comment, from a Klipsch Heritage guy ). Tekton has the 60 day return, so he will only be out the shipping cost back. This is my guess. Anyway, he is late on the reveal, so, let us get back to the man himself......WC......BTW, I am still, yet to hear the DIs, and up, and that is fine, as I am very happy with the musical performances I hear, with each moment I listen...... |
I’m hoping for Spendor but I think it’ll be Klipsch based on WC comments on YT last vid. I’ll guess Cornwall 4 to be extremely specific.
If Klipsch that will be very interesting.
Hard for me to see WC liking Klipsch sound based on his past preferences with speakers but that’s why it’ll be interesting if it happens.
Perhaps he will? But I doubt it. |
Karen, it also doesn’t exclude you from being crazy, lol. I believe from the way Jay said it, that the intention is not to replace the Wilson’s, but rather to have another option at a more reasonable price point to show how that might sound. I might even add a set of Tekton double impacts at 3k if I were going to demonstrate different levels. I believe good sounding equipment can make even reasonably priced good quality speakers sound pretty sweet. Even though they would be different brands, still a good way to show the law of diminishing returns to some extent. Could show where the best places to spend are also. |
On another subject, obviously youtube videos have poorer sound quality overall than the original source. However, if a system has bloated and excessive bass, then the YT video played on small speakers might have less bass, which would make it sound better in only that one aspect. Ironically, the tonal balance may be better in the video than the live system in the room. Of course, the clarity and total information content would be inferior in the video. I hope WC gets the Maggie speaker, which I am familiar with, having heard many models over the years. Whatever speaker is about to be unveiled, he is unlikely to immediately get rid of the Wilson, so it would be nice to compare the new speaker with the Wilson on the video, with the same other components and music.
Maybe WC and other listeners familiar with the sound of Wilsons can talk about the specific differences between the system sound of the Wilsons vs the videos, rather than saying the obvious, "they don't compare, etc."
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No issues with the recording quality, that's not what I'm saying. (other than it is still just a YT vid and we aren't in the room like WC is and we use typically low quality reproduction methods to play it - but we've said that forever).
I thought the Gryphon sounded amazing. Just didn't like the timbre of the Dag.
Just my opinion. That's what I heard. Surely others will disagree - that's the nature of the hobby. Not claiming to be a super expert.
FWIW again, WC also acknowledged that the Dag sound was off and pointed to a power cord mismatch - so I know I'm not completely crazy (in addition to 80% or so of voters picking the Gryphon). It's an individual preference thing and nothing wrong with that.
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That’s strange, as I felt it was the best audio recoding in terms of quality to date. |
I don’t know why I’m taking the bait once again, but last response from me and then let’s move on.
Clarity is important, yes, of course. Nobody will dispute that.
But it is not the end all. It is but one sub-component of sound quality. There are numerous others. They together make up sound quality (which everyone will admittedly judge differently).
Clarity may be nearly perfect, but if the timbre is off, as it was (IMO) in the Dag demo of Sultans and which I pointed out on this thread immediately, the overall sound quality (in that demo) is poor. The very incorrect timbre (IMO) was so notable that it overrode anything that clear sounding (bad timbre) clarity could attempt to salvage.
Were I not so familiar with the song I’d likely not have noticed. That’s why intense familiarity with music when critically reviewing is important. (no I’m not saying these fun little exercises WC gives us are critically reviewing, impossible given the playback restraints, but they are entertaining to listen to, insightful even given the limitations, and much appreciated) |
One other point before we close this discussion. Outside of audio, do you think that clarity is less important than other matters? Do you like politicians who lack clarity and mislead people? Phones nowadays have internet, flashlights and other apps, but the most important function-- sound clarity-- has deteriorated, making it harder to get the message across. Isn't it annoying to say "what?" to someone who is mumbling their words with low clarity? Music delivers a sound message in the form of words in a song, or several complex instrumental rhythms interacting with a melody. The message must be as clear as possible. I don't believe this is a minority view.
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Easy to nitpick an analogy, but I guess we just agree to disagree. You certainly won’t bring me around to your minority view, and I have no interest in trying to change your mind. Cheers, |
Very flawed analogy about a football game. You seem to believe that all the audio subcategories you can think of have equal weight. In football or any game, a great team does have everyone contributing high ability. But in audio, clarity is not merely a subcategory--it affects everything, like R/L separation, depth, tightness at all freq, etc. And yes, balance. If the whole freq range is in balance with clarity, that is the ideal. Live music is about clarity and balance. What good is balance in an audio system, if clarity in all freq ranges is equally mediocre? There is the familiar argument that neutrality is not enough, when the whole freq range could suffer from mediocre clarity. In fact, my narrow electrostatic speakers have greatly reduced output below 100 Hz, but the superlative clarity lets me hear accurate overtones of 50 Hz fundamentals, so psychoacoustically I hear more bass musical information even though the low fundamentals are way diminished.
If I were to make a game analogy, I would say that clarity is analogous to all-encompassing skill, and depth or other subcategory is analogous to what clothing the players wear or what the cheerleaders do. The game will be won by whoever has the most skill. The cheerleaders cannot give an incompetent team the win. |
Haha, only WC controls what he plays.
When he plays something popular, people complain. When he plays something obscure, people complain. So there is no way he pleases everyone with music choices
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" Sultan’s of Swing " is a very processed recording, and anyone arguing how it should sound, is simply being ridiculous, imo ( no offense folks ). Another thing.......If only the amp stand was the " variable " during this comparison, I would pay attention to the implied results found by everyone....power cords, as we know, and particularly, at this level, play a big part of a product’s performance ( in this case power amps ), so a true comparison, is flawed, twice. When I evaluate a component, whatever it may be, I need to do it, with as few variables as possible ( generally, the singular component itself ), to make a fair and honest judgement, of my findings, and this , with many years of listening experience and education. Besides, we are all different, in our hearing, our wants, likes, and needs.....so Enjoy !
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V:
I just call ‘em as I hear them without being a slave to subcategories of sound quality, like clarity. Whichever on balance sounds the best will get my vote.
In that shootout the Dag sounded awful, IMO, in reproducing the bass guitar, as I noted that night. That is not how the song is supposed to sound based on strong familiarity, and therefore I judged it profoundly inferior. It was so lacking that it didn’t matter what the treble sounded like. FWIW WC said he agreed (if I recall) in the immediately following post.
On subcategories, I don’t care if my football team had fewer rushing yards or time of possession if they won the game. Like the score on a football scoreboard, overall sound quality on balance is what matters, not building blocks like rushing yards or clarity.
Myself, WC, and 80% of respondents (which in audio preference is near landslide) agreed on the Gryphon in that shootout - when I said previously “Gryphon was better” that’s what I mean: 80% judged it better. It may have been the most lopsided shootout based on results WC has done.
You and 20% preferred the Dagostino and that’s fine. Again, I am not attempting to change your assessment method (I couldn’t care less).
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I agree with viber6's points. I also agree that it would be interesting to hear a different recording to compare these two amps.
Dave
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kren,
Just talk logic. You said, "Even if the Dag has better clarity, which is arguable but you seem to think so, the Gryphon was still better, which summarily disproves your contention that clarity trumps all." No, it doesn't. What it logically proves is that you think the Gryphon is better, having less clarity. But you preferred Nordost over Wireworld in the next video. Nordost is noted for its superior clarity, and WW for its relative warmth. This shows that you do value clarity.
Perhaps that congested/processed recording led me to draw the wrong conclusion that the Dag + stand had superior clarity to the Gryphon without the stand. If another recording shows that the Gryphon has superior clarity to the Dag, I will prefer the Gryphon. I have no allegiance to brand names, but prefer anything with superior clarity. I am still shocked about how a stand could make a lower clarity amp have more clarity than a higher clarity amp without the stand. More trials are needed with horizontal amps with and without the stand.
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WC, yes, you spend big bucks....yes, you connect it all....yes, you give, and take opinions ( very much appreciated with your journey, and the fun you are having ).......but not everybody ( me ) are students of yours, or feel " behind " you. Please do not take this the wrong way.....I am still a follower. Enjoy ! and stay safe.....always, MrD. |
After reading the comments on my youtube, i can say that about 65-70% of the votes are leaning towards Odin 1 speaker cable. The 30-35% that prefers the Wireworld could be due to the "warmer " presentation that could leave to longer listening sessions for some.
One thing i wanted to call out, sometimes during my videos i know i might sound redundant, BUT you all need to keep into perspective that NOT EVERYONE who follows me is at the same level. I want to hit the ground running, but that is not fair for those who are behind. For instance, here are some questions i get:
-What components are playing?? (i repeat myself on each video)
-I prefer cable 1, oh no i went back to listening and now i prefer cable 2
-How do you use your subs with the wilson sasha? ( i never said i use subs)
There are all sorts of subscribers that join and are also trying to learn so this is no different that when you are in a classroom and the teacher needs to give some students a chance to finish their classroom exercise even though the rest of the classroom is done.
Anyhow, tonight i hope to unveil my new speaker (no music) and towards the end of the week is part 2 of " the best amplifiers 20k and under" that i have ever owned
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I liked both but I’ll take Nordost over the Wireworld in this demo |
Not sure if the technique for recording has changed, but this video was by far the best of them all in terms of audio quality. |
Well we can agree to disagree.
You think the Dag sounded better on yesterday’s Sultans of Swing song.
I and most others (see comments on YT) including WC think the Gryphon was much better. WC even speculates in today video that Dag inferior sound quality in the presentation you like so much may be due to a power cord mismatch in compatibility.
Even if the Dag has better clarity, which is arguable but you seem to think so, the Gryphon was still better, which summarily disproves your contention that clarity trumps all.
I won’t try to change your mind; just reciprocate and offer the same courtesy. |
kren,
You are going to extremes by saying "Clarity is worthless if the amp cannot produce the entire sound spectrum of the song." In reality, even a lousy amp can transmit the 20-20kHz spectrum with reasonably low measured distortion at all freq. That’s the starting point, and from there we can talk about revealing nuances of the music. It doesn’t matter what type of music we like, clarity is the most important and universal attribute that reveals any of it. Other audiophile criteria like depth, width, separation and soundstage focus will be best revealed if there is clarity. Lesser clarity will compromise all these other attributes, or subcategories, to use your description. If you have 30 seconds in an elevator with someone who has heard something of interest, you don’t have time to hear a 3000 word review--just ask 4 words--"how is the clarity?" You will get what you need to know without wishy washy BS. |
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I didn't think the sound was neutered - seemed like the microphone was overdriven or something. Still, I thought the DAG sounded better, even with that handicap. That stand makes a huge difference.
Dave
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Clarity is worthless if the amp cannot produce the entire sound spectrum of the song, as the Dag was unable to do on Sultans of Swing for whatever reason.
You are of course free to prefer that neutered sound, but most won’t. The comments here, including WC’s, and on YT bear that out. At least on this song which is all we are talking about. As I said, I liked Dag well enough on some other songs - I don’t think it’s a bad amp. Just not as good as others he’s had
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