@whitecamaross I don’t know if this has been asked before but can you tell us what you think about 2 Luxman M-900U Bridged vs Gryphon Colosseum stereo.Is the Gryphon still in front in most departments ?Thanks.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
pokey77, I did have an open mind to speaker cables when a highly respected dealer asked me to try the Frey 2 speaker cables. He said first, make up fresh zip cord because maybe my old zip was oxidizing. But I found no significant difference between old and new zip. Then I tried the Frey 2. I couldn't stand the giant veiling compared to zip. If the zip was like 1 mile road visibility, the Frey 2 was like 50 feet in a blizzard. I agree with you that I should have been patient to break in the Frey for over 100 hours, but I couldn't imagine that such initial bad veiling would dramatically transform into clear sailing. Maybe I was wrong, but Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade has heard the same things about fat cables vs thin cables. I did try the flat ribbon Straight Wire cables, but I had similar findings to the flat ribbon Frey 2. Why don't you try the zip to hear what I am talking about? You won't have to break them in if you can't stand their sound. Also, knowing my tastes, you realize that I don't have any dark sounding components. BTW, how are you doing with the classical music selections I suggested? I am happy to present pieces with many other moods, depending on your initial reactions. |
pokey77, I did have an open mind to speaker cables when a highly respected dealer asked me to try the Frey 2 speaker cables. He said first, make up fresh zip cord because maybe my old zip was oxidizing. But I found no significant difference between old and new zip. Then I tried the Frey 2. I couldn't stand the giant veiling compared to zip. If the zip was like 1 mile road visibility, the Frey 2 was like 50 feet in a blizzard. I agree with you that I should have been patient to break in the Frey for over 100 hours, but I couldn't imagine that such initial bad veiling would dramatically transform into clear sailing. Maybe I was wrong, but Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade has heard the same things about fat cables vs thin cables. I did try the flat ribbon Straight Wire cables, but I had similar findings to the flat ribbon Frey 2. Why don't you try the zip to hear what I am talking about? You won't have to break them in if you can't stand their sound. Also, knowing my tastes, you realize that I don't have any dark sounding components. BTW, how are you doing with the classical music selections I suggested? I am happy to present pieces with many other moods, depending on your initial reactions. |
WC, I wholeheartedly agree with your findings on the superiority of the Maggie to the Wilson. Since you love deep bass, it is remarkable that you find that the outstanding qualities of the Maggie elsewhere in the freq range vastly outweigh the advantage of the Wilson, which is only in the deep bass. You might want to try the separate deep bass panels from Magnepan. They still probably don't do deep bass as well as the Wilson, so I would appreciate the 3.7i as is, for what it does superlatively. When I heard the original model 3 against the original model 20, the 20 had more bass, but much less HF content. A deeper tonal balance, not for me. I think the 3 offers an ideal tradeoff combining clarity with very good bass. You might feel the same way, now that you appreciate what the 3.7i can do. The 20.7 is probably too large for your room, the way the Neolith was. Who knows, in a much larger room, even I might prefer the 20.7 to the 3.7i. |
BTW, I’ve heard the Sabrina’s mentioned (probably have 20-30 hours of listening time) and I’ve never heard them veiled; played with ARC, Pass, Luxman up to 900 U separates, D’Agostino, T+A. It seems that the veiled comment was most likely due to incorrect setup or amplifier mismatch. Could have also been that the media played was not up to par. BTW, don't own Sabrina's or Wilson. Or for that matter, Frey 2 speaker cables though I do own a Frey 2 power cord. |
@whitecamaross What you are saying makes sense to me. Maggie's need the right amplification to wake up. I've heard Maggies at the shows and been to their demos a number of times. I was never really impressed. The last show I heard them at in Los Angeles they were stacked two high and supposedly had great amplification and source but after 20+ minutes in the room I was really ready to leave. Don't remember the model on that last demo. So, understanding that many of us have not heard them set up and amplified correctly, it stands to reason that with the right amp, they can sing. Because plenty of people say they can, I've just never heard it. And apparently you have now found a speaker/amp interface that makes them sing. Congratulations on that and can't wait to hear about what you discover next. Also, very astute your point that most people pair Maggie's with suboptimal amplification and so never hear the potential they have. Frey 2 speaker wire veiled: either they were on dark components and/or they were not broken in for at least a week. Can't remember ever hearing anyone say Frey 2 is veiled. I probably have hundreds of hours listening to Frey 2 and have never heard them sound veiled. |
The clarity on the Maggie's is incredible ONLY if matched with the right gear. How do I know this ? I've swapped out cables and powercords over the past few days and it affects the hell out of the presentation. I promise you if you were here to hear what they are doing with my Gryphon, nordost Odin cables and dcs dac, I don't see WHERE you would need more clarity. Most magnepan set ups I have seen online are with bryston, sander amps, parasound, etc which is fine but this is a ribbon and needs the right current to wake up. Last but not least , they NEED TO BE BROKEN IN. I went to hear my friends 20.7 over the weekend and they sounded incredible with boulder and dcs. I believe I can get my set up to sound even better once I take the time to break it in. |
I had the Martin Logan years ago, very detailed, but a bit lifeless maybe. I heard those model Maggie’s just a few months ago at the dealer, also a vandersteen dealer, and I was very disappointed in what I heard. It was sound is about all I could say, not the clarity or detail that I had read so much about with these. Listening to your description I can only venture that they must have been very poorly set up and I’m not sure what equipment they weren’t hung them with. I was there for something else, but first time had every seen or had a chance to listen to them, so I did. Once I see where you end up, I may take another visit to that dealer and see what he’s got them set up with and try something better matched for them. |
Who knows.. what I can say is that you can't quite compare both Speakers. I mean, there are things the Daw doesn't do that the magnepan does: -It doesn't scale as big as the 3.7i -I think the imaging on the Maggie is perhaps more forceful which gives you the wow factor -the 3.7 is faster sounding than the Wilson Daw |
20.7's arriving in 3.......2.......1....... WC, right now you have in your room arguably the two most iconic speaker brands in the world. Must not suck to be you, haha : ) I said right away when I found you got Maggies that you should keep both the DAWs and 3.7i's long term as references. (and also that you'll add a sub, haha). When I auditioned 20+ speakers in the under $10k range, the 3.7i made my top 3. Would have been top 2 but for the form factor. DAWs and 3.7i completely different but both really good, albeit at different levels of performance. |
10 ft away. they are about 7feet apart measuring from the inner panels. I went to bed at 230am this morning listening to them and it is NOW clear to me when it comes to amplifiers and Maggies: THEY LOVE CLASS A MORE THAN CLASS AB I also confirmed this with Steve from GT Audio because i have noticed he uses mainly pass labs class a amps for his speakers. I am glad my ears are leading me and although these speakers dont have all the bass i am used to, i truthfully don’t really miss it because i am getting so much more in other areas. I really can not believe how good this speaker is. I am willing to say that i regret not buying this speaker years ago because the level of clarity, depth, height, and INSANE IMAGING is on another level. I am going to make a bold, VERY BOLD STATEMENT here by saying that i suspect the 20.7 Maggies kill ANY martin logan speaker currently in production with the exception being the Neoliths. This speaker does things that Logans DO NOT do. i will need to put pen on paper to jot down my thoughts on both speakers. |
WC, I like the positioning of the 3.7i closer together. So far, what do you think of the sound with the tweeters on the inside vs outside when you first listened? There may be a disadvantage of extreme toe-in, because then the tweeters will be much further away, and the HF may be rolled off. I'm not sure about this, so listening will decide. Right now they seem to be in good position. How far away are you sitting? |
kren, We have different interpretations of WC's remarks. Besides, words are inadequate to describe music. Time will tell how he rates the 3.7i against Wilson. WC has come a long way from the days when he implied that nothing that is cheap can be good. He doesn't need to join the chorus of corrupt dealers whose business interests say that more expensive means better, case closed. No dealer of Maggies and Wilsons will say that Maggies better reveal differences between amps than Wilsons. They will say that Maggies are merely excellent value for the money, but Wilsons are top banana. |
WC - I really enjoyed that video. You gave many tangible, easy to understand points of comparison. Obviously drawing on your experience w many other amplifiers. Your excitement for these amps was on full display. I look forward to better understanding your differentiation between resolution, clarity and detail. Have heard other folks use categories like detail, air and transparency to get at these nuances. One other thought, is there an adjustment factor based on your cabling components and speakers at the time of rating. Obviously that will influence your overall sound but may be tricky to translate into ratings for each category. You have set a great baseline tonight. Really looking forward to how future amps stack up! |
V said: “but it is still apparent that the 3.7i has more lifelike snap on the guitar than the Wilson, which agrees with WC's overall finding of greater life and excitement from the 3.7i vs Wilson.” Amazing. WC never said anything of the sort, first. Second, IMO Wilson has way more lifelike snap on guitar. Not even close. You can disagree on that (tho u admit to never hearing them, I have) but Don’t gaslight as to WC findings, please. Show exactly where WC said “overall finding of greater life and excitement from the 3.7i vs Wilson” without wishing it to be true. I’ll wait. He simply never said anything like that. If anything he discouraged in the video comparisons between the two for obvious reasons (M not in same league). Don’t gaslight. Anything he did say in no way equates to the statements you attributed to him. Again, I’ll wait for you to cite those findings you claim WC had. Don’t project |
kren, Hardly anybody has the ideal experience of hearing Wilson and Maggie each optimally set up in the same room. I pointed out how even this major Maggie dealer had them poorly set up in the small room, just because they are cheap. And they were driven by mediocre, cheap electronics. Just business. But WC is doing a valuable project by mating the cheap 3.7i with the best electronics he can find. It is a tribute to the excellence of the Maggie that it showed greater differences between the Gryphon and Dag than the Wilson did. I have heard various Wilson models over the years at shows and well known dealers. The latest was the Sabrina in a room the size of WC's. It was so veiled that I had a hard time telling amp differences. I had to use only an extremely clear recording to tell any differences. Later, the dealer played a larger Wilson in a much larger room. The sound was better, but it was still hard to hear differences between amps. Judging from WC's videos, I think he has presented Wilsons much better than this dealer, but it is still apparent that the 3.7i has more lifelike snap on the guitar than the Wilson, which agrees with WC's overall finding of greater life and excitement from the 3.7i vs Wilson. Try the zip cord yourself. Don't call it silly but just report what you hear, good or bad. |
Gryphon easily kills Momentum s250 on the Maggies.... it’s actually the largest gap in performance I’ve heard between the two when using these speakers. With the Wilson it is much less of a gap but not with Maggie’s. Will the Merrill 118s have something to say about it ? Will Merrill audio element 118s best the stereo gryphon on the Maggie’s ?? That is one interesting showdown.. I can’t even pick one right now... One last thing, I am going to continue to post links here to my new videos through the end of July. After that, you all have to subscribe in order to get notifications. I can’t keep spoon feeding links here because people don’t subscribe. Fyi: youtube tells me where most of my views are coming from and the amount of people not subscribed. I have to do this in order to get people to subscribe so I will keep posting links here through July 31st and after that you will need to subscribe to watch what I am doing because I won’t keep adding links here. Tonight’s video is my take and ratings on the luxman 900u. I changed a few categories so it will be more interesting than before. The video drops at 9pm EST |
If you pay attention, viber6 tends to make these suggestions based upon comments that WC makes from his listening, combined with viber6's affinity for clarity. Nothing wrong with that. Just an opinion that he puts out there to WC, just like others do. WC can then choose to take it or leave it as he wishes. Dave |
Well, my priority is actually sound quality as a whole, but for what it’s worth the Wilsons have better clarity than the Maggies to my ears across the whole frequency range, yes better, and I happen to like the Maggies. Viber go listen to both in the same room and then feel free to disagree if you like. Otherwise, theoretical discussions and projections without having heard the speakers are rather pointless, and are WC’s pet peeve, as WC has admonished you for too many times to count since this thread began. |
kren, Your priority is full bass, and you think clarity is merely a subcategory. I can see why you favor dynamic speakers which are short on clarity and natural coherence, but do produce the huge/deep bass that Maggies lack. It is also possible that you never heard the ultimate potential of Maggies, which are much more difficult to properly set up than dynamic speakers. Years ago at a well respected dealer, I heard a Maggie 3 model banished to a small room, when the expensive speakers were showcased in their large room. That Maggie sounded like it was in a closet, closed down, as I expected. WC, Many people enjoy Maggies with low power amps, which still provide clarity. Maggies have clarity with naturalness at low volumes as well as high volumes. The challenge for you is to try the high powered amps and see if those high power amps can still produce the clarity of a low power amp when the music is not loud. The Gryphon Coliseum is not a high power amp, but it has the crucial clarity that lets the 3.7i shine. I assume even at this early stage, you appreciate the low level detail as well as the high volume presence the 3.7i has. But before you get all these amps, the priority is to tweak the 3.7i positioning, including reversing their positions so that the tweeter ribbons are on the inside. This will have greater effect than trying different amps. |
One thing I think a lot of people need to realize (unless I am wrong ) is that most people who own maggies (even at shows) run amps such as bryston, Sanders, pass labs, etc, etc and never amps such as gryphon, Momentum, constellation and let's not even talk about nordost Odin 1 cables , preamps of the caliber of momentum HD. The truth is most magnepan owners (again, MOST OF THEM, NOT ALL OF THEM) don't spend big money on top amps and preamps. My approach with this speaker will be totally different since I plan to do what most don't do which is to use some of the best components to go with it. So far, I am quite thrilled with what I am hearing. |
So the person who has never heard either speaker in person, let alone in same system and room, is telling WC what his new reference is? Ok, got it, LOL. I’ve heard DAW and 3.7i in same room. No contest IMO. It’s not a competition as WC mentioned. PS: I predict WC will definitely want to go back to the Wilsons. Let’s see who is correct.... |
One thing I will add is that magnepan might not be the right speaker to review Amplifiers with. It needs tons of current and it won’t give smaller amplifiers a chance to be heard. It is outstanding if the goal is to review "big boy " amplifiers. You could never review a pass xa25, single luxman 900u, pass xa60.8, etc, with this type of speaker. |
WC, YES, speed with non fatiguing, natural detail. Regular dynamic speakers with cones and domes cannot do all this. Their tweeters might be excellent because they are relatively low mass, but the more massive midrange and bass drivers cannot keep up. The detailed dynamic speaker then shows fatigue, so many people seek refuge in sweet, rolled off electronics and cables. With the Maggie's low mass drivers, all of them, you can have the best of everything, using the most revealing electronics and cables. Once you live with the Maggie and tweak the positioning, you won't want to go back to Wilson or other flawed dynamic speakers. This will also free up a lot of money, so you can try other low mass driver speakers, like GTA or properly designed electrostatics. For now, this 3.7i is your reference. Keep it. |
Magnepan: Speed, a race car. Probably one, if not the fastest sounding speaker I have ever owned. It almost feels as if you gave your music a shot of redbull. As I continue to dig deeper and deeper into this speaker, I keep being floored and want to keep listening to track after track and can't stop. Zero fatigue with nordost in the entire system . |
Not surprising. They’re really good speakers, especially for the price. When I demo’d them at dealer with bel canto black I was floored by how quick they were, and their tonal balance was right up my alley as well. Yes, the instant I saw what they were I stopped watching the vid and typed here that the 118’s would be good match - then went back to finish the vid and heard you say you planned to try the 118’s. Thumbs up |
I am going to go on the record and say that Magnepan is easily one of the best purchases i have made this year. I am right now simply without words to be able to articulate what i am hearing. All i can say is that this tall, wide and dipole design works amazing in my room. I am really blown away in every possible way. I feel like i am doing nearfield listening regardless of how far the speakers are and i LOVE the smoothness, lack of brightness, and lively feeling. I am so looking forward to getting my Merrill Element 118s here since the Merrill Preamp (Christine) is here now. I suspect this Merrill/Magnepan/DCS/Nordost Odin combination will send me into shock. This is just a gut feeing at this time, but 9 times out of 10 when i get this feeling it usually ends up being that way. More surprises to come guys... That is all i can say for now. |
"As it played for a minute or two the elder company representative could not contain himself, as he strode over to the system and, removing the disc, declared, “this is garbage! Garbage!” However, the damage had been done— I heard enough in that minute or two to conclude that this was a vastly overpriced and underperforming system." Maybe he referring the rig?🙄 |
Ricevs, Thanks for your explanation of bridged. If the R and L channels are absolutely identical mirror images, then the bridged voltage will be 2x the regular, and bridged power will be 4x regular, or 6 dB. But in real life, all the parts are slightly different, so the R and L channels won't be absolutely equal. Then the summed waveform of the bridged will be different from the waveform of either unbridged R or L channel. Suppose there is a 0.1 millisecond delay--then a 10,000 Hz signal will totally cancel out. Other freq will be distorted to different extents. So I think that at best, if R and L channels are perfectly identical, the sound bridged will be equal BUT NOT BETTER in quality to the unbridged. In the real world with slight mismatching, bridged will be inferior. Perhaps when WC found the Luxman to have the same sound quality bridged as unbridged, the R and L channels were perfectly matched, whereas in the Hegel H30 they weren't matched as well. Most of the time, when the music requires only a few watts, there is probably no benefit in going bridged. There is also the reality that bridged amps are not comfortable at lower impedances, so even if they are capable of much more power into 8 ohms, at low impedances they might sound worse in quality. |
Just woke up and read this final part of the pass labs xa200.8 review. I REALLY liked how real he was when it comes to break in time, using personal recordings rather than always Audiophile stuff and also calling out manufacturers at shows for not letting him play his music for as long as he wanted. This is one of the very few reviews that really reach out and touch me because he tells it like it is. Kudos to this reviewer: https://www.dagogo.com/pass-laboratories-xa200-8-pure-class-monoblock-amplifiers-review-part-3-concl... |
Bridging uses an amp per phase. The signal path is not longer....you are just using one channel for positive and one for negative....rather than one channel doing both phases. I am sure there are many reasons an amp sounds the way it does when run bridged. Most things in audio are complicated. Simple answers = simple mind. Pure mind is good.....but simple answers to audio questions is usually incorrect. |
WC, I have no experience with using 2 bridged mono amps vs the original stereo amp, but your observations on how the Hegel H30 lost sound quality when bridged, makes sense. Bridging uses double the circuitry, so should be expected to sound veiled compared to the stereo which uses less circuitry. But then I don't understand why the Luxman 900u retained the quality when bridged. Maybe there is a difference in how the Hegel and the Luxman are bridged. I agree with the tips of C Ab about using the Maggies. After break in, don't use the resistors on the tweeter. This tweeter is probably the finest for extension and smoothness, so it would be a shame to reduce its output with the resistor. Many dynamic speakers have crude tweeters which sound harsh, so many people tone them down with resistors or HF controls. There is no need to do this with the Maggie--even grey9hound liked it without knowing it is a Maggie. In the end, your Maggie will give you everything you want in upper midrange and HF--clarity and smoothness. Even if you want to blast off, you will be able to use the most revealing amp to get excitement without fatigue. I do agree that the midrange and lower freq need work, so keep the panels far away from the side walls and closer together than you usually listen, to get best focus and least inflation/bloating of images. Unlike C Ab, I would maximize the distance away from the front wall, 8 feet or more, so they are most away from all walls to simulate the effect of having a huge room. You may have to sit closer to the back wall, which introduces the back wall heavy bass risk. You can see that this involves lots of trade offs, but you will be rewarded. |
Ricevs, I respect your knowledge about wires, and your track record of modifying things with different wires to get more clarity in the sound. I am not technically competent to understand why zip cord actually sounds clearer, leaner, tighter than most fat speaker cable, despite zip's low quality materials and construction. I read about Nordost's superior construction and materials, but was completely baffled at how the Frey 2 sounded so veiled. There are many pseudoscientific theories from cable designers whose products sound veiled to me. Maybe you can help me understand the technical basis for what I hear. Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade has the same observations of the sound as me, but he doesn't offer any convincing explanations as to why his wires sound the way they do. Have you listened to Mapleshade speaker wires, and zip for yourself? |
4425, we obviously can’t all travel to jays place, even if he had room for a thousand people, and listen. We make do with what we have, and we have mostly all noted that we obviously are not able to hear everything jay does in his room. Before current technology we would all have to wait for our monthly stereophile subscription to show up in the mail to get our fix in this hobby. I don’t see too many people going at each other like some threads on the forum and everyone seems to enjoy it for the most part. I for one don’t see the harm in any of that, and it allows for some nice conversations. It’s apparent many of us hear different things listening to what we hear, and I enjoy reading other peoples thoughts that differ from mine, and why. |