I did the unthinkable with the Merrill audios in terms of how good they can sound . Most agree right?
You should go listen to the last 2 videos and compare how the Dag pre sounds with mephisto vs the ARC6SE. Notice how different it is and how the arc REF6SE sounded magical with the Merrills but it struggled with the mephisto. It didn’t sound "right" but this was exposed even more by the momentum HD preamp. That is what I am talking about. At the level of the Mephisto, things need to be at another level. I believe Ron17 mentioned this and I am echoing his words with videos. You can NOT get away with things that you got away with in the past when you are higher up the mountain. The higher you climb, the less oxygen there is and the less room for errors as well.
Tonight’s videos will touch on a few things and reasons why I let go of the components that will be missing on the video. |
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i think WC is involved in is more than some dry rational and reasonable process of selecting his preferred musical components/system. i think we need only observe WC's restless passion for this calling to know that deep motivations stir within.
so when WC is crestfallen that Mephisto is not a solid a step toward a yet to be experienced Nirvana, but perhaps in fact is an indication that he's already "peaked", surely this is understandable. (not to mention practical/financial issue of "tweaking" a Mephisto - big undertaking).
to be here and watch this man reassemble his determination and move forward is wonderful. and i think it must be heartening WC, that in the videos i have heard so far, the Gryphon's potential at least is evident. within weeks it will be making the Merrill Ref6se combo (which sounds amazing) sound comparatively flat i think. |
kren,
One day you will understand that low mass drivers have inherent advantages over conventional dynamic drivers. Electrostatic designs have been around for 100 years, and are simple and relatively cheap to make. Dynamic speakers are improving, due to better materials, but for clarity, low mass rules, so properly designed stats are king, followed by planar ribbons, then dynamics. The only advantage of dynamics is for power. All the money in the world cannot get a dynamic driver to react as sensitively and with as low distortion as a lower mass driver. For those who don't respect the laws of physics for speakers, I'll use vehicle analogies and say that the fastest horse cannot transport its rider as fast or effortlessly as an ordinary car.
The Maggie 20.7 has the better clarity; the Wilson has the better dynamic capability, esp, in bass.
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WC,
As I said, yesterday's video sounded great except for the bass, which is likely due to the recording, not the system. All this talk about nebulous things like synergy is confusing and misleading. It certainly led me to judge the Mephisto negatively, because all I heard was your frustration. It is better to take a recording, mention specifically what you like or dislike about the instruments and voices. In other words, speak the language of music rather than totally unrelated things like cars and other generalities. If you want to be more enlightening, you might say for example, "listen to the guitar on the Mephisto at 4:02 and 7:33 on the Merrill. I hear the guitar as X on the Mephisto and Y on the Merrill, etc." The 2 reference quality amps you now own are Mephisto and Merrill, so it is more useful to describe how each amp reveals the instruments. The Merrill has the advantage of more break in.
I give credit to techno's point (free of his negativity) that a great amp should sound good right out of the box with any cheap power cord or cable. Out of the box, it may have unexpected flaws, but it will have many great attributes. And since it has so much to offer, the tweaks will have greater effect than for a mediocre amp. This has nothing to do with money, but rather with performance. Money buys better parts and construction, but good thinking doesn't cost more than bad thinking. A well thought out circuit design with OK parts will sound better than a lousy design with expensive parts. One proof of this is the brilliant design of Tekton Design speakers, which use ordinary parts and sound superior to many speakers costing 10 times the price, according to all the user reports I read.
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Amps with class A bias settings adds more circuitry to the equation. The signal path will automatically be impacted by the switching. Nobody talked about that Gryphon flaw... Purists will want their amplifiers clean of that kind of useless circuitry, you just don’t need that when your choice of amp has been well made to begin with. There is a reason why Simaudio, Pass Labs, Luxman, Ayre, Classé, Vitus, etc. don’t do it this way.
A little poetry to end the day...
Mephisto is just so so.
Merril is king of the hill.
Mephisto you soon will go. |
@speedbump6
Agreed. Wish that he'd take the not so subtle hint.
@whitecamarross
I think, like one other poster said above, you are pointing to system synergy. This is really one of the single most critical elements in a system singing. |
Tecno,
I dedicated the antagonist comments on today's video to you. Hope you enjoyed it. |
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Tecno, it’s not the cables, etc. the only issue is the one guy who thinks he’s a legend in his own mind. |
He heard, he did not experience it... Usually he is the first to claim no listening no comment... It seems it just apply when HE see fit...
Hey guys, I have a good one for you. What’s the difference between the Accuphase and the Mephisto ?... 😉🧐
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"As far as boulder, i heard that their new stuff is nothing like their new models."
???
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Enjoy the new video. Most of the stuff in it is gone as of today. |
Viber now that WC has Wilson again the Maggies are only good for standing behind when he is changing clothes and wants to be modest. Not his reference for clarity, lol. |
@guyl
Seems like my journey has been a little different than yours. I have had dozens of systems over the years. Earlier systems (that were nowhere near as resolving) as my current system, took only a week or two to dial in. In my current system there is much more information to be heard which takes me months of fine tuning to get it just right. Adding a new component or cable now seems to really change tonal balance, bass, soundstage and always integration to my subs.....maybe it's just me being more obsessive about it....lol
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It ´s the ultra expensive retoric or gammic....If it does not satisfy, they find excuses...
....oh it must be the synergy.....oh it must be the cables....oh it must be because it is much more revealing...oh it must be the preamp...oh it must be the breakin in...
It’s simply a business keeping the illusions and the never achievable dream alive...
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@ron17 Thank you for the precision. You're right you did not mention price. I thought your comment implied that aspect. It's just that I've experienced in many cases in my own system and in my friend's systems this situation where dropping a more expensive component was almost plug and play (kind of) and trying to integrate components say 50% less expensive prove to be very difficult due to the lack of synergy. In some cases it did not fly at all and the new component was sold. It also depends on your expectations and like you said YMMV. |
@whitecamaross
- WC why don't you try the same gyphon's matching pre-amp to eliminate any guess work or unknown variables.
remember you yourself said this when testing luxman how c900u and m900u have best synergy and you cannot spend any amount of money to better/best that.
- also break in of amp and cables combo will only have an incremental effect and i doubt if things are going to change night and day there so matching gryphon premap might be your best bet and probability.
- it would be too soon for you to think about boulder at this point.boulder owners and dealers who carry both boulder and simaudio describe it as muscular, dynamic and dry, similar to simaudio |
Hi Ron,
yep you nailed it. I have not met an amp as revealing as this amp. This is why i am packing 5 boxes as we speak since they need to make it to fed ex today. Two preamps out of my 3 preamps have been sacrificed. i will leave it at that.
As far as boulder, i heard that their new stuff is nothing like their new models. I am curious about it, and i am not opposed to bringing their new stuff here to see how they are voicing it now. That said, i am not really focused on that, but rather on the Mephisto right now. If Boulder does happen, it will, but i am not chasing it. If it is meant to be, it will come and i will be ready for it.
By the way, i have a video scheduled to be released on youtube for today at 5pm EST of the momentum hd preamp and the mephisto so that you all can compare against yesterday’s video.
Lastly, could i be nearing the end of my Odin 1 run? let me just leave it at that ! ha ! |
@guyl
I understand your point, however I never mentioned price of a component. I said "At the Mephisto's level", meaning the level of clarity, resolution, definition etc.... The more information the amp delivers to the speakers the more one would need to carefully match components, cables and speakers. In my experience an amp that produces less clarity, resolution and definition is easier to integrate into a system....it would still need to be tweaked but I don't think it would require the time and patience that a highly resolving amp would....YMMV
The OP has owned hundreds of amps but to my knowledge none have been as revealing as the Mephisto....thus making it more of a challenge to create system synergy.....according to the OP. Of the 4 or so years the OP has been reviewing amps (at all price points) I believe the Mephisto has been the most challenging...so far.
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I'm a little confused on that point too. Not sure why WC wants to go back to the Boulder, when the first experience with Boulder was not great. Perhaps he has a reason which he has not yet divulged?
Dave
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Still don’t get why you would consider 2160 when you didn’t like the flagship 3050 which many state are far superior?
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This is a false assumption IMHO. The type of tweaking necessary to get the best out of a component has nothing to do with its price. If you want to extract every single drop of juice out of the lemon then it's irrelevant if the amp is 2K$ or 20K$. System matching and synergy is key for both cases and potentially lots of tweaking maybe required. Of course, if the goal is just to add/replace a component in the system and be done if that sounds "good" then fine. But raising the bar and trying to get the best combination for a given budget is not reserved to the stratospheric systems, assuming the rest of the gear is on par of course. I don't know why it would be different for the Mephisto. Some components out there are a bit more difficult to integrate into a system but from my experience it has nothing to do with the price of those units. |
You are wasting your breath with this guy....I have never owned an amp that I just plugged into my system that didn't need some kind of tuning of the system to get the most out of it. Whether it was power cords, IC's. SC's, preamp and even speakers and subs. At the Mephisto's level it's going to take way more time and testing...obviously.
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Sorry, but when you have to tweak the system abusively to make the amp sound good... It should all be fine with the top of the line Audioquest Or Nordost you already own. If it is not, and somehow you keep thinking you have to find or use a very specific pc to tame it...then it is simply a psychological mistake or huge expensive buy denial syndrome...
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You think boulder is any different lol. You think boulder is easy to deal with?? I THINK I owned one boulder already...I would know....these are amps not meant for the cry babies. This is next level SH!t. It is for those that pay attention. You think a mephisto or boulder would work with a lamp cord as a power cord ? Or the cables you own in your system? They are messengers... Don't be pissed at the messenger for the letter you got in the mail. It isn't his fault. It is telling you what the rest of your front end is doing. |
Gryphon doesnt sell Mephisto...that amp doesnt sell well , that amp is must probably flawed to begin with as we can see with WC latest experience fighting the beast.
Tweak the damned system all you want, it will not change the fact that amp is a bad buy. It should not be like that at those prices... |
Smodtactical makes sense with the guy he talked to. Boulder is known for neutrality, and their latest series is far superior to the previous line, according to Rich Maez, the marketing man of Boulder. Maez may be biased, but I would make Boulder your next amp to try. Jump on it, they don't come up often. Like the Mephisto, Boulder will probably require lots of break in time. Don't waste time with the Antileon Evo, which 1-2 people said is euphonic compared to the Mephisto.
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WC,
Also, move the JC1+ which is not in the same league as anything else you have. Keep the Maggie which is your reference for clarity which comes from low mass drivers. Imagine how the Maggie will dazzle you when the Mephisto is fully broken in.
I liked the latest video. The midrange and HF percussion have excellent clarity and sparkle. I hate the muddy artificial bass which I believe is the fault of the recordings and not the Mephisto. The voice is neutral and focused. Without hearing the A/B of the Mephisto and Merrill, these are my impressions, but you know better because you are hearing it directly.
Just a wild guess, but I believe your jitters is merely a case of the Mephisto needing more break in. Why don't you just put your best Nordost and AQ Dragon cables in there, and let the Mephisto break in? You will be confused if you try other things, and then you won't be able to judge the effects of those things vs the effect of just letting the M break in. My guess is that the Mephisto is a very detailed amp, which may sound dry before adequate break in, especially with Nordost. Once all the detail and neutrality comes through with Nordost and Mephisto, you may be dazzled by the sound, but still yearn for some euphonic warmth. The detail and increased musical information will grow on you, provided you don't bleed your ears by blasting. Even I went through a brief euphonic tube phase many decades ago, and at first I was uncomfortable with the drier SS sound, but the improving SS taught me that I should live with it and learn from it. Then there was no going back to warm sound because a lot of the music was buried in the warmth. |
I will eventually try the boulder 2160 and the antileon evo. Those are going to happen but that is very distant. I don’t see them coming anytime soon.
Can I please play with my mephisto? Lol.
Guys, let’s do this together. I want to learn this mephisto. If I were to describe a mephisto, I’d call it a WILD CHILD that needs to be tamed down. THAT IS THE BEST WAY to describe it. It is one of those huge bulls that only qualifed bull riders can ride because if you can’t hang on tightly, it will throw your a$$ off of it and stump on you. it is not the amp for thin skinned people or "soft " personalities. It is that amp that you need to connect with and let it talk to you. WAY DIFFERENT animal. I now realized that before I was riding ponies in terms of behavior. This amp ain't having none of that. If you have kids , this is the kid that loves to contradict you, not listen, jumps off the couch and on top of your bed or gets in fights in school. Patience is key here. |
Mephisto needs no help with bass. It needs cables that actually do the bass just right. The potential Is there in spades. I smell it. Today you will hear the mephisto with the momentum HD preamp but I switched some powercords around. Watch and see... |
i think techno is being quite unpleasant and should cool it. leave WC alone man!
WC i just listened to the latest Mephisto video. i left a comment and it mirrors what you've said in here. the video shows the extraordinary promise of that amplifier. it would be nice to have a recording of it playing one of the songs from Aug 22nd Merill / ref 6 outing. i think one can already hear a "thickening" relative to beautiful Merrill setup. |
But then why would you consider the 2160 ? This guy compared 3000 series to 2000 and 3000 was far superior.
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I heard boulder 3050 monos with alexx and I wasn't impressed. Too dry, dull, nothing that made me breath the music in. Maybe im used to nordost cables. |
I agree with getting read of as much as possible and grabbing the boulders. A guy I was talking to has the 3060 and Sonja XV and hes compared it to other top amps (Dag relentless, momentum, gryphon mephisto, Audio research). He said the 3060 is simply superior. He likes a neutral transparent sound though. Nothing euphonic/organic.
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Techno's job is to be the antagonist. Don't worry, I'm putting a special touch on my next video... :) |
Techno, sounds like you’ve predetermined the results. Maybe he can just ask you for the results before hand so he dosnt even need to buy anything at all. Seems like that would save a whole lot of time and effort all around. |
Well, I let go of 5 items just now... Moving forward. Fridays video will reveal what has left. |
I appreciate the candor, wcss. Seems like a tricky beast. |
He said it, as of now he is stuck with most of the gear he has in hand. It does seem like it became more emotional than rational lately. He used to get things that were an easy resale value, that could go in and out with high demand, not anymore... Most of his last moves are trades, each time acquiring heavier and costlier pieces that are ( in these time where money is loosing value as they are printing it like crazy...) gradually becoming somewhat anchors... Pretty risky moves, during pretty risky times...
We know him, he is just too autocratic and stubborn to let the Mephisto go. He will lipstick that pig like crazy...( expensive cable swaps, preamp swaps, speaker swaps, name it ) Believe me he will try everything before admitting it was a pretty bad move... |
You could move the Maggie’s also. |
WC,
As a doctor, even though you never sought me as your doctor, I say you are right that although many patients come to see me after they have researched things, they come to see me for my experience and judgment because I have read the internet also. Just like audio journalism, medical research is often biased, so I always ask other doctors I know about their firsthand experiences. Your listening experiences are as valid as my medical experiences.
However, I have sympathy and concern about your feverish audio pursuits that can create financial ruin and emotional distress. I just point out a few examples of a big audio industry myth that has misled you (not your fault). That is, the most expensive flagship of a product line MUST be better than the lower models. You loved the Colosseum, and assumed that the flagship and newer Mephisto must be better. As of now, you are unhappy with the Mephisto, and I hope you can correct this situation. Next, you considered the Sim 860 V2 to be an outstanding amp in both absolute performance and value. You have NO basis for thinking the flagship 888 MUST be better, just because it is more expensive and powerful. After you hear it, that is another story. And I already noted how the more powerful and expensive Bryston 4B SST2 was inferior to my Bryston 2.5B SST2 for clarity. I won't be surprised if the less expensive and powerful Gryphon Essence is better in clarity than the Mephisto.
It just seems strange that it has never happened that when you got an amp, you had such high expectations which were then dashed when the reality of listening kicked in. It is not because the Mephisto is an intolerant race car that can only be driven by a trained professional driver. The Merrill is also a high performance machine, but it sounds good with any ancillary components.
Certainly, sell the HD preamp and Momentum S250 amp. They are overpriced euphonic pieces, and you are done with them. Do you still have the Christine preamp? If not, the ARC ref 6SE is a great preamp. Make room for the Boulder 2160. I was even considering the Boulder 1060 for MSRP $22K which still has enough power for a medium efficiency speaker. Someone on this thread is happy with the 1160. Since the speaker is the major determinant of sound and therefore where more of your money should be spent instead of on ancillary components, you ought to consider what I think may be the best dynamic speaker at any price--Tekton Design Moab with all Be tweeters for a whopping $14K. Unbelievable--follow the thread by millercarbon on the TD Moab, and see my posts there. Klh007 has provided a lot of great insight there. Nobody other than the designer has heard the Be version. You could be the first! At $14K, there is little risk. This speaker would give you everything you want. I will see how good the latest GTA planar magnetic ribbon speaker is for $25K. With either the Moab or the GTA, you won't need much power.
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The only thing I can sell right now with my eyes closed is the momentum HD preamp because I have 2 people who want it as soon as I am done with it and I’m not sure I can let go of it just yet.
Everything else I own is not exactly stuff that people are ready to buy with money in hand. Everything costs what a car costs in some cases. |
Sell something quickly @whitecamaross ,the Boulder amps are quite exceptional. While each level up the food chain is an incremental jump, I just shake my head in amazement at what Boulder has been able to accomplish with the 866. I was communicating with a well known dealer who handles both Boulder and Gryphon and I feel reasonably confident that the Boulder would exceed your expectations by a wide margin. |
Ouch.... Boulder 2160 call came in... Ugh... can't do it, too much dough tied in so many amps right now. Damn it I would love to have 2160 next to mephisto and let them go to war. |
@speedbump.
Thanks for the reinforcement above.
The video I posted just one hour ago shows the untapped potential as well as the incompatibility that might reside within the system. The hard part of the hobby is identifying potential and the easy part is landing on garbage. |
There seems to be a disconnect between what jay says and what people believe he said. I never saw any indication that he was “scared” worried, or even concerned that the mephisto wouldn’t pan out to be anyth8 g other than what he originally said it was. He’s doing some experimenting to see what does work best, and gives the best synergy. As anyone who works with very high performance cars, you can’t just plug in any “upgrade” and achieve expected results. They are fickle beats and thoroughly reward the right setup, while also harshly penalizing the wrong one. By comparison. Doesn’t mean that the “ wrong” combo can’t steal whoop the fastest production cars. Just means it won’t perform its best, to what it’s capable of. Seemed like a good analogy at least. Just sit back and let him work through it so we can see where it ends up. Its late August and Christmas is still a bit away, enjoy the thrill of anticipation. Once you’ve unwrapped the present, then you’ll be wanting to move on to the next one
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Ok so first:
@zprr.
Thank you for confirming what I said. You clearly understand my logic and reasoning. I appreciate you coming out and speaking out loud about what I said and suggested. I firmly believe i know what I am talking about since I'm not giving advise based on what I read on magazines or forums.
I know NOTHING about components I haven't personally owned. I don't believe ANYONE can speak with certainty about any component they personally haven't lived with.
Viber, i believe you are a doctor ? Should I then google any symptoms I might have and diagnose myself based on what md.com is saying and refuse to accept the diagnosis you gave me if I came in for a doctor visit? I
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@viber6 i think WC is on point with the complications of moving ultra high end for things like moon 888 , mephisto etc.
i would not be surprised if mephisto has better synergy with some cables and components only
we already know that as a fact for example spectral amp needs MIT cables.
and again it's too early for WC to admit this way or that way that merrill is better or there is less benefits of throwing this much money in mephisto.
in a 2-3 weeks we will know based on WC's further experiments withe the cables and the new pre-amps he is going to try. |
WC,
There you go again, "However, if you went to the simaudio 888 -$120k Monos and you are coming from the 860a, you will need to spend more money on the rest of your system. It’s s whole different league and level."
You know nothing without listening. Forget about money--expensive things are not necessarily better, despite what your contacts say. I hope you learn this before you have a financial and emotional breakdown. Already you are scared/angry that the Mephisto is not what you assumed it would be. If the Mephisto is not so good right out of the box in areas other than bass, beware. You will no doubt improve it, or get used to it and rationalize that it is the greatest because of what you paid for it. But THE END--no way! Time will tell. |
