yyzsantabarbara, can you please post a link to the JRDG 535 posts? |
a great point made by ihasaguy, 1st paragraph in his post. viber, as I find myself in disagreement with some of your statements, again, I present a question. Given your system as it is now, how many people would feel your system as accurate ? and would it be accurate with any and all kinds of music ? Would this accuracy be realistic ? Once a system is properly set up, it is the recording that should give you that " distance " or " outdoors " perspective you speak of, otherwise we would all be adjusting our speakers on wheels for every specific recording we play. I have had audiophiles, music lovers, musicians, and just regular folk, listen to my system, with their own recordings, and most peoples jaws were agape. It did not matter what the recording was that was playing. And interestingly, and this surprised even me, people asked me to raise the volume, never lower it. But this does not matter in the scheme of things. Unless I am away, I get in at least an hour a day of listening, and my system plays " Midori Live at Carnegie Hall "as well as " Rage Against The Machine ". As you also say in response to the zaks,, " My sonic priorities are different than post people here and elsewhere ". Hmm. Are you right in the way you listen, and everybody else is wrong ? Because throughout your entire posting here, this is what I hear from you, and it can be annoying. Maybe a trip to Florida for vacation, and to hear my system will open your mind, and ears up a bit. You could also visit wc, as he is 4-5 hours south of me. BTW, I am not looking to fight, but you are a reason I am not here much. But, I have been invited by wc, and I might stick around. Enjoy ! MrD. |
wc, I know Volti Audio will be at the show, and I am hoping Greg Roberts has his Vittori full range horns and matching subs there, playing in there full glory. A full range horn, with bass augmentation from say 60hz down. Fabuloso ! |
yyzsantabarbara,
I enjoyed my 60 day trial of the Benchmark AHB2 on my electrostatic speakers. The tone quality was neutral and detailed. But the specs didn't reveal that they clipped and shut down at fairly low volumes. This told me that at the very low impedance at HF of my electrostatic, the output was low. It wouldn't help to bridge 2 amps, because the output at low impedances is paradoxically less even if the output at 8 ohms is much greater. Too bad that the revealing tone quality is not matched by enough power for the crazy loads of electrostatics.
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A few definitions of high fidelity : the reproduction of sound with little distortion, giving a result very similar to the original.....the electronic reproduction of sound, especially from broadcast or recorded sources, with minimal distortion.....sound reproduction over the full range of audible frequencies with very little distortion of the original signal.....the reproduction of sound using electronic equipment that gives faithful reproduction with little or no distortion.....I would have to say that there are MANY characteristics in sound and music reproduction that fall into this definition, and what one feels are his / her " priorities ", are just that. Very specific to each and every one of us. And it seems to me, most of us understand this, our individualities, our uniqueness, our priorities, and maybe, one or two of us, do not. Enjoy ! MrD. |
MrD,
It is not important whether any stranger might LIKE a particular system. My comments to ihasaguy were simply to say that if the goal of a system is high fidelity, the reference point is the sound of live music. High fidelity is about accuracy, as best as you can get it. It is OK to engage in audio fantasy which has nothing to do with high fidelity, and here anything goes according to your pleasures. Each piece of live music has its own reality, according to how many players in the ensemble, types of instruments, voices, natural volume levels, etc. Large horn systems best reproduce large scale instruments like church organs, 9 foot pianos heard up close, etc. Small scale pieces like string quartets, solo banjo are more realistically reproduced by small electrostatics and mini monitor dynamic speakers. Actually, any solo instrument is best reproduced by a MONO system, not a stereo or multichannel system which create multiple sources that are contrary to the reality of a single, solo instrument or voice. A solo tuba which has a large horn is obviously better reproduced by a single horn speaker than a single minimonitor. A small banjo is more realistically reproduced by a single mini monitor or electrostatic. These examples show how depending on your main type of music, a certain speaker will be more suitable. It isn't realistic (pun intended) to expect that any one speaker is best for all types of music.
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viber, once again, I disagree. In fact, it seems to me that you are not as educated in audio system set up as you are as being on or near the stage. More power to both of us. Enjoy ! MrD. |
MrD,
I agree with all the definitions of high fidelity you just posted. So we agree that high fidelity to your particular live music is the goal. People prefer certain types of music, listening at different distances, etc, so this is a legitimate factor in the choice of different systems. |
Those definitions are taken from several dictionaries, so it is good you agree with them. |
@klh007 The posts were from @guidocorona and he mentioned that he felt the 535 were about 85% of the 925. He was threatening to do a review of them and post on A'gon. I don't think I want to wade back on this thread to find those links but if you search on @guidocorona posts you should find it somewhere there. |
Round 2:
im back to playing the persona 3f and well the soundstage is still collapsed. It has amazing detail and clarity but it is one dimensional unlike the electrostatics which are the most 3D presentation I’ve heard.
I also got some feedback from someone who owns the persona bookshelves and he said he spent 4 hours with the 9h personas and yes they added more body and bass but the highs and mids are the same. He said if I don’t like the 3f that I shouldn’t go to the 9h because it won’t be much different In terms of mids, highs and soundstage size.
Am I spoiled rotten with panels now ? Lol
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Can a pair of Audiostatics, such as those owned by you, viber, and I will be gentle here, reach musical peaks of 95 db, cleanly, without break up, compression or distortion ? Any system that has a hard time of this, and I have heard many, fail. Is this " audio fantasy " ? I do not think so in the least. You want to talk about live, unamplified music....anytime...….. |
viber, make a trip to florida, visit me, visit wc. You will get an education in system set up, at least at my place. |
viber, I owe you an apology. So, I am sorry. Continue with your great knowledge, and I will simply not respond....WC, Try and listen to as many horn systems at the show, because it is my sincere, professional and non professional opinion, you get closer to the real thing, than anything else. And although nothing is perfect, they do more right, than wrong. I believe the Volti Vittora, with an ELF, will enlighten you, astound you, capture your ears, and your heart. And, they will work in your room. Nothing like a full range horn. As always, Enjoy ! MrD. |
I have thought about 9f, that Parsona SUB + 3f will beat 9f every day for sure and cost less.
@whitecamaross do you have plan to try tekton speakers ? 😀 |
WC,
It is great that you acknowledge the strong points of both the 3F and Neo. As I said to MrD, and you agree with me, no one speaker does everything perfectly. I recommend that you keep the 3F as a cheap reference for top-notch clarity. For me, in all aspects of life, I value clarity. In my field of medicine, sometimes I don't quite understand a new concept, but then when someone explains it in a new way, I am thrilled that I finally understand it better. Music appreciation is similar. A more revealing system will let you enjoy the music you have always enjoyed, but at a higher level.
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MrD,
You are quite right that my Audiostatics compress at 95 dB. When my father built his custom enclosure for the Altec VOT drivers, he stressed how no other speaker could play at high volumes without breakup, compression or distortion, the same words as you. I was so taken in by his words and loved the naturalness and power of the music from the Altecs that I brought my college friend home to hear them. HIS father had the large Advent speakers. When I played a string quartet on the Altecs, my friend shook his head, and said, no, the Advents reveal more of the exciting sizzle of string instruments. I was crushed, but admitted that he was right when I visited his house and heard his father's Advents. Of course, the Advents didn't have the large scale dynamics of the Altecs. The strongest advantage of the Altecs were voices which showcase the midrange dynamics and naturalness. I really love classical pieces of both small and large scale, but I realized that to best reproduce my favorite pieces, electrostatics are the choice. For low level detail extending up to comfortable levels of about 85 dB, they excel. When I hear cymbal crashes peak at 100 dB, I realize that the lower freq component of the cymbals are compressed, but most of the energy is in the HF which compress very little because HF excursions of the stat diaphragm are small compared to lower freq. Yes, cymbals are still compressed to a degree, but the exciting transient clarity of the electrostatic wins me over and more than compensates for the compression. Then to hear tiny taps of cymbals and moderate levels of snare drum transients, there is nothing better than my Audiostatic plus my newer electrostatic super tweeter, the Enigmacoustics Sopranino.
I enjoy your comments and thank you for your invitation to hear your system. There is much that we agree on, and I acknowledge the truth of your comments, so keep it up.
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Hi guys,
axpona is coming around the corner. I’ll be there a week from today. If anyone wants to meet me and connect , shoot me a pm for my info. This should allow for us to build more trust and put a face to the person(s) who we chat with on here on a daily basis.
Look forward to meeting you ! |
viber, back at you, my friend. But, here is the thing. You are still making your listening beliefs known here, and this is imo, as a performer, and not an audience patron. If I am 35 ft from a stage, in say the 1st few rows, and I am listening to a solo cellist, which I have, the sound from the cello does not sound small. Now, if I were up on the stage, just a few feet from the musician, the size of the instrument will be more specific and smaller in size. More abundant in the power and clarity, as you say. This is how acoustics works, as I took a few courses back in the day. BTW, I owned Advents, and double Advents, and they did do some things very well. In reality, there are several reasons my Lascalas work so very well, and when wc hears the Vittora, he will enjoy them, believe me ( and yes, I believe PWK was a genius ). The bass horn is amazing, not just on it’s own, but it blends so well with the mid horn. A major reason I could never like the Neo’s, as my ear is very cognizant of the lack of coherence in that region. A major reason I feel many horn hybrids are not as truthful as a simple pair of Lascalas. EL hybrids are the same for me. I owned the original CLS, as again, back then, they did some things very well. But matching them to my Janis subs was just ok. I used a Bryston active crossover, with similar amplification for both, but I still preferred a pair of Lascalas I had in another room. People who I know own the venerable Altec 19s. A fun speaker, but the discontinuity of the 15 inch bass driver with the horn, ( which I do feel the horn is wonderful, with modifications ), is not a realistic combo. I hear it on every instrument and voice, but yet they are popular and sell for what a pair of Lascala’s go for ( on the 2nd hand market ). Another aspect of the Lascala is that the horns are close together. This makes the speaker work in an almost near field situation, and it does produce recordings showing the natural size and space, unlike what you are saying. You likely never heard a pair. A reason they are still being manufactured after all of these years ( along with the Khorn ), and many of them going overseas. Anyway, my point is, and has always been, you are a unique and different listener than most. Your ear is very fine, and I understand your desire for detail. If I can hear a difference in changing out a regular fuse to a better fuse in a piece of equipment, I think my system is pretty much detailed ( not going into that subject here ). Are they perfect ? At the selling prices, for me, pretty close. And I know how to eliminate all of the nasties that people have complained about for years. And the Vitorras, they are quite incredible, and thinking about it, knowing everything that is available out there, for my current listening room, they are what I would get. They, imo, DO IT ALL. But, I am happy. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Vittora is the correct spelling. |
Anybody ever hear the Sonus Faber Stradivari? |
wc, just wait for the show. I believe you are searching for that " jump factor " that real, live music has. Just a matter of time.....lol |
lol.. yes sirrrr...
A few things i can say i have learned so far:
-Huge speakers wrap you in sound, BUT they might not have the best pin point focus of their smaller siblings.
-Smaller speakers tend to have a little better separation and pin point accuracy but they lack the monster wall of sound.
- the room AND YOUR TASTE in sound will determine what floats your boat. Nothing is really wrong with whatever you select.
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wc, too many people, and I would say you as well, put too much emphasis on sound staging, imaging, spatiality, etc. We do not know what this information is on most recordings. I am not suggesting these do not have importance in a playback system, as they do, but there are so many other musical characteristics that are . I cannot believe viber and I agree on this, as we seem to disagree more than we agree. I am also glad you made me feel wanted here, on your thread, again. I am honored, really. Yes, we all have our own desires for our dream systems, nothing right or wrong. Just important to find what " you " want and like, and find it. One day, we will connect, I come to you, you come to me thing. But, if you get the Vittora and Sub system, I will be coming to you ! lol. Greg Roberts is a great, passionate guy. I know him from his Klipsch modifications he did for a while during his beginnings. Enjoy ! big man. MrD. |
This has been a fascinating discussion. Thanks WC! I am a subscriber to the Philharmomic, usually sit 4th row center, and like Viber use live unamplified classical music as my reference. I have heard or owned many of the speakers being discussed here. WC, the Neoliths are great speakers. They sound closer to the real thing than any other speaker mentioned by others. I have owned both horns( Avantgarde and La Scalas) and electrostatics (Acoustat, Quad and Martin Logan). Now when I hear the Rite of Spring or the Mahler 5th live, for example, the dynamics are incredible. I remember the floor of the concert hall vibrating during some of the climaxes of the Mahler or the Stravinsky. No electrostat can do this although the MLs are impressively dynamic. But you know what? The La Scalas play loud but even they don't come close to what live music dynamics sounds like. So no speaker does it all. The MLs excel at everything else so they easily best the horns (even the AG Trios). No comparison , IMHO, so I am on Viber's side. WC you would have to spend mega bucks to try to beat the Neoliths. Horns won't do it for you. You will initially be impressed by the dynamics and soon thereafter you will crave the Neolith again. That is what happens to me after I use a horn for a while. There are obscure ribbons and others on the market that I have not heard that may or may not be competitive with your Neoliths. All very expensive. If your room and amplifier are up to the task you have probably reached the pinnacle of what a great stereo can do with your present system.
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philharmonicpete, glad to have you here. I am so glad you have stated " IMHO ". This is all " our opinions ". You obviously never heard the Volti Vittora and sub bass system. It is ok you like what you like. As another poster mentioned on another thread, this audio world would be very boring if there were only 1 set of speakers for the wide variety of listeners. Have you heard the AG trio / XD system, in a proper sized room, for you to make that comment. I so disagree with you, and I am not surprised you are in the camp that ELs are IT, just as viber. And just so you know, I never said Lascalas, or horns in general, reproduce live, as live does. What I can tell you is this. I have taken a very clean mic and guitar mixer, and have used my Lascalas to playback my singing, and my buddies guitar playing, and it was awesome. Play loud, yes they do. But if you think that is what horns do best, you are wrong. It is actually the accurate portrayal of soft vs. loud, with an ease and flow, which cannot be duplicated by ELSs, or anything else for that matter ( IMHO ). How far did you " take " your Lascalas when you say you owned them ? This is a great discussion. One of my earlier points, was that when we stop looking for better ( listening in this case ), and can stay seated, day after day, listening to our favorite music, and not looking at the equipment ads on here or elsewhere, is a great place to be. This also shows our individuality, of how each of us hears, what are our priorities are, and so on. I am yet to hear a system that sounds identical to real, live, unamplified music. So, with all that said, Enjoy ! MrD. |
The issue here guys is WHAT is the life event supposed to sound like? How do you know if electrostatics or horns or beryllium gets you the closest ? It’s hard to tell. I’ve heard some say that panels get you the closest to natural sound and those woofer/tweeter set ups add flair to the sound. So how does one know WHAT is the standard from so many technologies? Hard thing to do...
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Mr. D, love your writing and totally respect your opinions. To answer some of your questions (but this is WC's discussion so I don't want to get off topic), I have never heard any of the Volti but have heard the AG Trio twice. Once at a show, set up by Jim Smith, with AG standard woofers. The other time at a dealer, set up expertly in a great room with the matching bass horns. Not the new XD version. Both used super electronics. The sound was excellent in both cases but when simple female vocal sang accompanied by guitar, for example, the image was bloated and totally unlike real music. Similar to the way early Magnepans distorted the image.. I can easily live without the huge dynamics when other speakers, not just ESLs, are more correct. Gigantic sounding acoustic guitars are not what I hear when I hear that instrument live. That totally destroys, to me, the illusion of trying to sound like the real thing. The La Scala, by the way, images correctly and so do the AG Duos.
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wc, the issue is " what do each of us think it should be ". No right or wrong. We all seem to be defending " our perspectives " on the matter. I am correct however, and everyone else is wrong, LOL, LOL, LOL. As I stated, there are many characteristics in music, and breaking it down even further, some of us like vocals, some of us like guitar, some, as viber, grew up loving violin, etc. Once it is down on record, cd, broadcast, whatever, we need to reassemble it the best way, within our financial means, for our own interpretation. That is why my statement ( I think I will apply for a patent ), is so true. We just need to find what we like, that is all. Not complex in theory, but anyone reading your thread, has been through many speakers, amplifiers, dacs, cables, cartridges, etc., to find what they feel is right, for them. It is all good. philharmonicpete, I appreciate it. 50 years is a long time to be " into it ", so, I have discovered what is best, for me. And it was over 50 years ago that I was introduced to Khorns, and through time, with so much exposure to so many other things, I still like the Klipsch Heritage models, and some other horns. This is me. I really do believe the Vittora system, " does it all " ( for me ). Enjoy ! MrD. |
MrD,
Back in the 70's, I heard the La Scala and Belle Klipsch at a midfi dealer driving them with receivers, etc. The La Scala was about $600/pr, and Belle about $900/pr retail. I wasn't a sophisticated hifi listener at the time, but somehow I liked the Belle better--it seemed more coherent and focused than the La Scala. They were both about the same size and I didn't understand why I preferred the Belle. The Belle was more attractive and compact, so maybe that biased me in its favor. So I agree with you that close together horn drivers is a good design. My father emphasized that the ideal speaker is a point source, not a bunch of widely spread out drivers. That is one reason for my criticism of the Neo. The horn gives the power to the point source. The AG Trio is not a point source, so the imaging is not as focused as either the Altec 511 driver which covers 500 to 22 kHz or your La Scala or Belle whose midrange/HF drivers are point sources.
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WC,
You are right that we don't know what the live event sounded like. But after numerous exposures to different live events in different halls and sitting in different seats in the same hall, I realize that live sounds vary so much that you cannot use any one example as a reference. That's why I emphasize clarity above all other criteria. It is hard to get an ideal seat at the concert hall. So I stand up at my seat, scouting out the closer seats that are not taken, and scramble for those seats in the last few seconds before the performance starts. These seats will have the best clarity. I don't care about imaging, depth of field, separation. Get the most information out of your music, regardless of where it comes from. Don't pre-occupy yourself about whether you are reproducing the best space or the unknowable space of the recording. It's about music, music, music, NOT location, location, location. |
viber, the Belle was 18 inches deep, 30 inches wide . Lascala is 24 inches deep, 24 inches wide. Within a few inches differences in height, as the Belle was taller. As you said, both large, but the Belle seemed more compact, likely because it stuck out into the room less, by about six inches ( that’s what she said, lol ). I suspect you liked the Belle, because they were 1/2 of a foot farther from you, as well as the Belle being slightly taller ( and likely being driven by early ss receivers, no doubt ). The Belle was the " pretty girl ", having nicer exposed cabinets, and the Lascala were utilitarian, and designed to be a bit more compact. My experiences listening to the AGs ( I have heard them all, but not the trio with the addition of the xd ) require a larger room, as a bit more distance is required between them and the listener. At the right distance, I do hear a point source. Why I stated the Lascala can be listened to more nearfield. And for both of us to say to others, that spatial characteristics are not as important as other characteristics ( we do agree on this point ), makes us both unique amongst listeners, as any true audiophile tries to create this " staging ". I certainly do, but not at the expense of other things. I want to say, also, my early experiences with Klipsch, was with tube amps driving them, and it was my experience with early ss, which included Japanese receivers, did I join the Klipsch modifications band wagon, as solid state at the time, exposed " nasties " that were present in the original designs. All horns back then had nasties, not just Klipsch. Anyway, this is a fun and lifelong journey for all of us, and it will be interesting to hear all about wc’s takeaways from the show. Enjoy ! MrD. |
WCSS, I am curious. I have been following all of your threads from the beginning. Given the numerous changes in your front end, pre and amplification, speakers, cables AND listening room, is there any gear combinations (or possible combinations unheard) that you would like to be able to revisit? Maybe the PL500 with Block amps perhaps, or the Salon2s with the Lampizator for instance? I’ll be at Axpona next week maybe we’ll run into each other. Cheers
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MrD,
Before I became an audiophile and when my major musical activity was playing for myself and in orchestras, I was only concerned about clarity of sound, while listening carefully to improve the precision of my violin playing. The vocabulary of "soundstage, depth of field, left/right separation, imaging" seems to be specific to audiophiles. Musicians don’t speak that language, because they realize that these aspects are much less important than the clarity of the music. Most musicians have inferior, mediocre systems--just good enough to hear their recordings or to listen casually. They spend most of their money on getting the best musical instruments they can afford, so hifi takes a back seat. They don’t obsess about hifi also because they realize that all hifi is far from the real thing in nearly all aspects. Certainly my system is far from the real thing in many respects, so I choose to concentrate on clarity where my system does come very close. It has more clarity than a midhall seat and approaches the clarity of the best position like the conductor on stage. Kind of like a specialist like a dermatologist who concentrates on the skin mainly, although a good dermatologist will have some knowledge of the entire body which of course is intimately connected to the skin. Also, philharmonicpete is an educated classical music lover who agrees with us that clarity is more important than spatial effects.
Thanks for your reminiscences of the Belle and La Scala. What did you think of the sounds of the Belle, and of course, the K-horn flagship? How did you modify your La Scala? Are the newer horns like AG or Vittora using better horn materials and/or better compression drivers?
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Ok so a couple of you guys asked me to post a combination of components that I felt were magical so here is a system that I had and I felt was amazing to say the least:
revel salon 2
simaudio 860a
lumin s1
audio research ref10
wireworld silver 7 cables throughout
the combo above was INCREDIBLE. I am willing to bet that 90% of you would agree if you heard it. You wouldn’t even have to worry about mix and matching as I’ve done that for you.
there is a huge soundstage, detail, bass, imaging and smoothness with those components. If anyone wants a system that sounds kick ass and doesn’t want to go through what I do, put together the above and you will be blown away.
Another reason why my combination above works is because I have owned the revel salon 2 twice and they never had bass that satisfied me until I introduced the ref10 in the mix and that was game changer. The simaudio has high gain which allows for the power hungry salon 2s to not fall apart when playing at low volumes. The lumin s1 is a good budget dac for the money and there’s nothing wrong with it. Wireworld Silver 7 cables add the extra “air” to the high frequencies that make the salon speakers sound even better without any fatigue. Proven combo above. You should be able to buy all of the above for about $40k on the used market. Keep in mind, that is LESS MONEY than I have in my Martin Logan Neoliths so yes that is a great combo for the money.
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I’ve had Salon 2s for over 7 years in a very "live" sunroom that doesn’t make for great bass (have been told by several that electrostatics would be good in here, but don’t want something with both a tall and wide profile blocking my view). Powered them first with Plinius pre and power amp, a brand known for good bass, and wanted more. Switched to Symphonic Line tube pre and monos that are known for prodigious bass, and even then I was contemplating adding a sub or two. I wasn’t unhappy with the system per se, but there was a sound in my head that I wanted the system to achieve and I wasn’t quite there.
What finally did the trick was using Star Sound Audio Points and then upgrading to their Apprentice XL platforms a few months later. Voila, now THAT’S the bass I was looking for. They provided better soundstaging too, along with more dynamics both macro and micro. I have no idea how or why they improved the sound, nor do I have much interest in scientific explanations, but I have been extremely happy with the system ever since, with zero desire to upgrade.
A somewhat different path than yours with the Ref10 and Simaudio, but a similar result. Fortunately I am not afflicted with your level of curiosity and can stop right here, LOL. |
@whitecameross, make sure you stop by the JTR demo room in Nirvana C at AXPONA while you’re there. JTR will also be the ones providing the speakers for the live music concerts at the event. I think that you will be impressed. Unfortunately, work will keep me from attending. |
viber, too much detail ( pun intended ) about all of the modifications I do. Liked the Lascala better, because the mid horn has a longer throat ( Khorn and Lascala use the same mid horn, Belle, a shorter horn ). One of the many reasons production of the Belle came to a halt. WC.....I just spent time looking over the exhibitor list for the Axpona show. A large turn out, with many interesting and promising speakers and designers. There are even some non horn speakers that caught my eye, as I think you will be quite busy. Saturday evening a live concert by Shelby Lynn, and so much more. I used to love being at shows, both as an exhibitor, and as a patron. As far as JTR speakers, I do not think they will be your cup of tea, partly because your room will not allow proper distance between you and them, and they are not a full range horn ( they are a hybrid ), as the Vittora. Just my opinion. Always exciting. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Closest to live sound, and I do love rock concerts.
Horns - will give you the impact, snap, and feeling of being in the front few rows most times. I've owned several horn speakers from Klipsch and JBL, and I've demo'd the JTR's several times (they are nice). I've heard the Volti's also and they are a lot of fun. Downside to many horn speakers is the bottom end doesn't always have Impact (the JBL M2 was an exception). So, integration of a sub is important and I've never found I can get it just perfect.
Semi-Omni Polar - Ohm Walsh (not the originals, but the newer ones that use a tweeter for the uppermost regions) - Give more of the spaciousness and soundstage of a live show, the bigger ones have tons of low end. But they don't have quite that snap that a top notch horn has, the flipside is the bass is better and typically you can listen louder as they are not a bright speaker. Also, don't have to be right in the sweet-spot to have a nice image. While I don't go to many classical shows, man the Ohm's do it right. I feel like I'm a little further back in the crowd. Currently I'm using Ohm Walsh 5000's.
Omni-Polar - (MBL) - in the right room and set-up can be awesome, but I've heard incredible demo's and mediocre demo's. I've never owned.
Otherwise, a good bi-polar design or open back design (like Jim Salk has options for) can do a nice job adding some spaciousness.
I know many say " a good speaker should do everything right " which is somewhat true, but a studio monitor and a good concert speaker IMO are two different things.
Right now, I'm digging the OHM's, they are a happy medium and they are far from perfect but they do a lot right for the money.
But, gun to my head and I had to pick a speaker that could replicate a rock concert the best... JBL M2's with the EQ set-up properly. Ironically some do use the M2's for studio work. They are a hell of a speaker, but they are designed around pro amps and DSP. The nice thing is with the DSP you could play with the curves.
Where I think the OHM's beat a good horn - bass and that HUGE feeling that a concert can give you when synth's, guitars, drum's, everything is just sounding huge to where you feel it in your chest and pant legs.
Where the JBL's and other horns might win out - that ultimate "snap" of a snare drum, vocals way out front and piercing at times, and that last bit of crunch from a Les Paul through a Marshall Stack. Downside is they can get bright at concert levels after a while.
Note - If I was someone who wanted every last little precise detail (say Viber) not sure I would look at either speaker, or an electrostat either. I might actually look at the Persona's (which I respect but don't care for as a speaker).
The JBL M2 might be the one exception. Amazing speaker, but with a lot of caveats.
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dep14,
Thanks for your informative comments about different speakers. It is telling that you found the Persona's more detailed than an electrostatic. Which stats did you hear?
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Viber, you are the only one who gets it. No coincidence that we both know what an orchestra sounds like close up. I love 4th row center. From that seat there is almost no imaging as one hears from a stereo system. Yes, one hears left-right, a wide spread from say the violins on the left to the cellos and low basses on the right. There is very little front to back depth. If you close your eyes you can sometimes tell that the brass and percussion are in the rear but not always. When a solo oboe plays there is no pinpoint location at all. The sound radiates large and there is no way to localize the instrument. Listen to a Steinway grand playing a piano concerto. You don't hear a small sounding piano located in front of the orchestra.as in a typical recording. Again, it sounds huge with no localization. The imaging effects heard on a system are really artifacts of the stereo recording process. Yes, the dynamics are incredible. I'll never forget at one concert when the orchestra was being driven very hard by the conductor the lady in the seat in front of me kept on whispering "it's too loud! it's too loud!" I tried to simulate these massive dynamics with both Klipsch and Avantgarde horns. It was a total waste of time. Even the horns fall hopelessly short in reproducing what the dynamic range of an orchestra should be like. Another waste of time is to try to reproduce the low bass of an orchestra. It is shocking to me when the low basses play. Take a simple pizzicato plucking from the low basses. A gigantic thud crosses the concert hall with such power and authority. You have a simple pluck that yields a massive thud. Just amazing! No stereo can do this. Even the bass horns are hopeless in trying to recreate this effect So as Viber has hinted at all along the only thing you can do is to try to get clarity. This also is incredible at a live concert. You hear subtle shadings and nuances that is lost on almost every system. Just look at the score that the musicians are reading during the concert. Tons of detail, most lost on a typical system. At least ESLs and full range ribbons attempt to get this clarity and detail. Even the Quads which are very deficient in bass and dynamics try to do this. Sorry for the long rant but I'm afraid most audiophiles don.t reference to an orchestra at close range.
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I have heard the neoliths a few times (and in the right room they are awesome). My neighbor has the 11’s, I have almost bought the 15’s a few times.
I DO like a lot of stats can do, my issue is I listen to rock and sometimes loud. I need a big panel (like the 15’s or the neoliths) so they won’t compress. My room isn’t big enough (in my opinion).
I am not a fan of the Persona’s, but I’ve heard them several times. Objectively, they are very, very detailed. For the first 10-15 minutes I was enthralled with the detail, shocked at times. A bit dry (I’ve heard the whole line-up at various dealers). But that was at lower DB levels low 80’s or so. As I had them turned up they simply became too much for me. That demo in particular was using an ARC tube pre-amp (it was the ref 6 or 10). After 15 minutes or so at a higher DB - just too much detail for me, cymbals in particular bothered me. But, IF you LOVE detail and don’t listen loud I can see how someone would like them. Imaging was great, soundstage was average. I don't like them, but can see how someone else might.
The big stat’s - well, those Neo’s are a whole different animal. Driven by proper amps (ie - huge) they were an awesome experience. |
Listen, there is live, unamplified music. That's it. Done. What we try to achieve with our systems is to create a facsimile, a copy, of the real thing. It cannot be done. But on a measurement scale of imitating the real thing, there are systems that come closer than others. And this is still up to debate as to which systems come closer, as we all might put greater emphasis on one or two characteristics over others. I thought we all agreed on this ? And I can tell you I have been to several concert halls and like both of you, enjoy being up close to the performers. My feelings are this : without detail and clarity, you cannot get a realistic portrayal of the " playing " of the instruments or rendering of the voices, let alone the tone structure, attack and decay, and the ambience around them. I believe once you can change a fuse in a piece of equipment and hear things change ( generally for the better ), you might say your system has plenty of clarity and detail. So although I do not put sound staging and imaging high on my list of preferred listening characteristics, it is pretty amazing when the entire front of the room " disappears ", and I can hear placement of the musicians, and I can get a feeling of the acoustic space they are performing in. If anyone has spent any time in a studio, and see what these engineering and mastering guys do, well, it is all a " simulation " of a real performance. And by the way, this detail and clarity starts at our sources, and if lost at the beginning, no amplifier, and no speaker, will be able to get it back. This is why most professional reviewers use " audiophile " recordings when talking about the equipment they are reviewing. What is my point in all of this ? I just felt like rambling. Enjoy ! MrD. |
mrdecibel,
Totally correct. The stage of a large symphony orchestra is about 100 ft wide. No system, not even the Neo in a large room comes close to this. So no system as proper full scale imaging. So you might as well concentrate on getting the best clarity from your music. You said it well--"without detail and clarity, you cannot get a realistic portrayal of the playing of instruments or voices, tone structure, attack and decay, ambience." I go further and say that all the audio fantasy of IMAX imaging is useless without ultimate detail and clarity. The bigness and space of IMAX is not more realistic unless the projector has greater resolution.
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viber, it is nice to agree with you, my friend. |
philharmonicpete,
Totally agree. For me, even the 4th row is too distant. I go for the 1st row, slightly left of center so I am closest to the soloist where the sound is the most clear. The only disadvantage of the 1st row is that the stage is about 4 ft high, so you have to crane your neck to look up at the musicians. Maybe I should have become a conductor, who has the best position of all. When I played violin solo in the Lalo Symphonie Espagnole, I had the thrill of immersion in all of it, with the brass blasting in my face, etc. Anyone who says this is too much detail is unfortunately missing out. One of my favorite pieces is the opening overture to Lohengrin. There are 8 violin parts which I have never heard on any system. I have the score and look forward to a live performance from the 1st row, where I can hear and see it all. It is absolutely necessary to strive for the most detail in your system, so you can approach the detail of a live performance from a very close seat. If you are in NY, let's get together, since we have so much in common. russlaud (at) gmail (dot) com.
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Gentlemen - I agree and I've been absent for awhile - because notes of better / bigger / improved or image size or detail or bla bla bla lost my interest because no one mentioned a live performance as a reference. Every hear the sound of a strong / loud hit to cymbals up close? They hurt! (I don't know how drummers do it - hearing loss or earplugs?)
Earlier in this post, I clarified our home system investment was to create the illusion of a lifelike performance. Since our speakers and room aren't grand (nor is the rest of our system), I enjoy small acoustic venue performances - because our system can reproduce these convincingly. And, at this level of equipment - software (recordings) are critical. Significant modifications through a mixing board / computer typically compromises the quality of the recording (hence the expression "straight wire with gain").
Also - in my humble perspective, I prefer to obtain components which are neutral and not match a system to compensate for components shortcomings. This makes for better long term investments (because you can keep your other components - especially cables), and also makes upgrading much easier. And yes, system synergy is very much an issue - especially in high end systems.
All generalizations from this humble individual so please take it for what it's worth. |
The only component that I want to be neutral are speakers. I don’t like neutral amps or else I’d still have the boulder 2060.
Pure neutrality can be terrible on certain components. Some of us like to listen to music from back in the day that wasn’t exactly recorded correctly. It’s important to have components that make bad recordings tolerable at times and that’s where your front end components can help.
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This was mentioned earlier, as part of a previous post I made and addressed this issue. I certainly respect the desire for making older recordings sound "listenable" - it's a valid point that
whitecamaross
defined well and identified to clarify things.
I prefer components to be revealing / be of the highest fidelity (also stated in last post) because with the best recordings - the playback performance is unmatched (IMHO).
Unfortunately, this reduces the spectrum of recordings I / we can listen to -
whitecamaross's past reference of listening to old rock (Led Zeppelin?) recordings are usually an act of torture. But then these performances usually involved amplified instruments - so a "natural acoustic" isn't always possible.
Thanks whitecamaross for sharing - I / we continue to look forward to your sharing your experiences :-) |
MrD,
Forget about the hybrid JTR speakers. What's so good about the Vittora system, which costs $30K and doesn't look much different from the Klipsch La Scala or even the Belle K? I don't like wood horns. Wood is a soft material and absorbs HF, so that's why Volti may be trying to create a softer sound which you know I think sacrifices detail. My father's Altec 511 horn is hard metallic, so the sound is more neutral. Perhaps the ideal is concrete. He showed me a 1964 cover of High Fidelity magazine I recall. The headline was "a half ton of sound" which showed pictures of large concrete horn speakers being shown at an AES convention.
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