Music Server vs. PC vs. Transport vs. ?

You revived a thread from over four years ago?

Mac Mini and a Peachtree iDac. That is THE answer.

with what macs provide and the interface with itunes with the flexibility of distributed music throughout the home, i just can't see the reason to go with Qsonix or sooloos. according to articles and other threads on different forums, you still need a good external dac with these 2 units. you might get a different interface (better is in the eyes of the user), but as far as i can tell, thats about it. a dealer try to sell a customer a $6000 qsonix setup and he almost went for it. after we talked, he decided on a macintosh setup with a 2 tb nas (raid 5 setup), a couple mac minis around the house for music distribution (multi source capable from the central itunes library) and internet access in those rooms, an airport express and 2 apple tv's. we also included jitter reduction devices and decent external dacs for better quality music in 2 rooms for for around 1/2 the cost of a qsonix standalone unit.

you cant buy lossless flac or itunes music If you use wma lossless which is what the qsonix supports you can buy music with out ever leaving your living room. I am a dealer for qsonix and sooloos

I am considering going this route as well. I am wondering if there is anyone on this thread from Chicago who might be able to help me. I am really a newbie at this who just read the 6 moons article about the modified teleporter. Bob

Marcmen: You should state that you are a dealer/distributor of the Qsonix product since you have them refurbished/show demos for sale/auction right now.

you should check out qsonix version 2.41

Practically speaking you can go a lot further for less money using Toslink. In my experience the premium Wireworld Super Nova was every bit as good as a SPDIF - difference being I got 5 meters for less then the price of one meter of good (not great) SPDIF.

As for the soundcard, more is probably more but why not start with what you got and if it makes you nuts buy up.

This has been very informative and helpful for deciding how to start down the music-server path. I have a related, but different question.

In addition to serving the music up to a Squeezbox and external DAC, I want to run a digital cable from the same PC to and adjacent HT receiver. I could go toslink or digital coax. What's the better method?

If I'm only going to use a digital out, is it worth spending more $$ for a high-end soundcard or will any soundcard that provides a digital out do?

Still lurking and learning. This is a very useful thread. Wish I were able to contribute something. And I hope it's the right thread for this question.

Ive seen some two channel receivers with USB input (Bel Canto, Outlaw 2150, Music Hall Mambo). Is any equipment with an internal USB DAC worth considering?

Any general or specific comments, or referral to another post or source of info would be appreciated

Hdomke - there are differences in wireless networks. 802.11a is actually better for streaming data because of its 5ghz freq range rather than 802.11g. your 802.11n router has to communicate with your airport express at 54mb, which is 802.11g speed. When using wireless technology to stream data, you need a very good signal from the source to your destination or you run the risk of lost packets, packet retransmissions, latency issues, delays, etc.. which could degrade the signal or at least cause dropouts. Another way to improve network transmission is to get network devices that support QOS.

you asked about wired or wireless. if you have cat 5e or better cable to your locations in the house, by all means use a wired connection. I have this cable and my whole house uses 1 gb switches so each wired connection is able to communicate with the other macs/file servers at 1gb speed.. File sharing and mac sharing has never been faster. also, i just read that apple is supporting blu ray. if/when they come up with a hi def audio that macs can play, you will need the extra bandwidth.

You mentioned why not purchase a complete system from a vendor. My reply is that they don't have any better sound than what you can build for quite a bit less $$$. If you have read TAS lately, they reviewed a couple of media servers that cost $$$$'s. They still had to hook them up to an external dac to get them to sound their best. look at the latest review of the mcintosh media server for $6000. the reviewer indicated for thousands less, you can create your own server that would sound just as good or better than the mcintosh unit.

there are a couple ways to create a whole house audio distribution system IMO using macs. on the cheap side, use wired or wireless airport express devices in each room that you have an amp/speakers. you will be able to play 1 source to all devices or you can turn a room off. in each of the rooms, you can either connect the airport express straight to your receiver/preamp or you can hook it up to an external dac. to control itunes from each location, you can use leopards screen sharing to control the main itunes from a remote mac or use the itouch or iphone devices to remotely control the mac server.

The more expensive route (better quality, more flexible) is to use intelligent devices in each room to handle the network traffic better and to allow multiple itunes sources so you have different music in each room. I would deploy a used mac mini at each location where you have a audio system that is either hooked up wired or wireless. all these mac mini's would share the common itunes repository off the media server directly, no need to remote control the server. each mac mini would be hooked up to a monitor or tv to produce the screen to control everything. if no screen is available, you can still control the mini from another mac or itouch/iphone.
good luck

Hi - glad to be of help.

Don't use AIFF - you need the metadata

As far as getting a digital signal out of the Mac Toslink, DAC, WiFi and Ethernet are all options. And who knows what Steve will have for us next week.

About SPDIF., Everyone is amazed at how a humble hard drive bests a fancy CDP. Why. Well reason number one is that a hard drive is not subject to the same kinds of jitter and other distortions inherent in a complex electro-optical-mechanical system designed in the 70s.

Beyond the transport which is clearly the primary culprit, the secondary culprit and source of jitter is SPDIF. SPDIF implementation is extremely problematic and often poorly done. A premium SPDIF cable is expensive and rarely longer then 2m. BTW Toslink was Toshibas answer to SPDIF and can be equally problematic. The best Toslink cables are less expensive then SPDIF cables and come in longer lengths. Toslink is often looked down upon by audiophiles but 6 moons (among others) ran some tests and it was pretty much a tossup. Remember that fiber decouples the PC and the DAC which a SPDIF cannot do.

If you have a SPDIF you would be better off looking at something like the Hagerman or Blue Circle USB to SPDIF devices.

Start with what comes free with your Mac - FrontRow is a pretty cool remote that might meet your needs. There are a lot of fine alternatives if you need them.

Put the room on the Ethernet now and be done with it. One thing to consider is where you will be doing your ripping. That Mac needs to be connected to the Internet in order to populate the metadata. (Of course you can use Airport for that as well)

Keep us posted and have fun!

Ckorody,
Thanks for your ideas!
It is helping to clear some of the confusion I have about turning my Mac into an Audiophile quality music server. I guess the complicated nature of it is why people would want to use a proprietary system. If I bought a Sooloos or Qsonix music server then I would not have to worry about all the different parts because they come in the box. Otherwise a Sooloos or Qsonix would sound no different than a Mac set up properly, right?

“The absolute best file format to use on a Mac with iTunes is Apple Lossless. “
Thanks. Does anyone disagree with that? I had always assumed I would use AIFF.

“…no compression of audio files takes place when they are sent via wireless. “
That is great news. That means there is no role for Ethernet. No reasons to drill holes in the floor.

“If you are using Toslink or a USB DAC…”
Are those my two best options for getting the digital signal out of my Mac? I had a dealer tell me today that coaxial S/PDIF (which would require an inexpensive converter) is the absolute best.

“If you are using WiFi you may or may not control play from iTunes” I will be using an Airport (Apple’s brand of WiFi configured for 802.11n). Should I consider any other software?

“ if you are thinking about doing your whole house an Ethernet network enables you to add a NAS”
I do have a whole house Ethernet Network (but not to this room yet).
I plan to store the music on my Apple Xserve RAID which is hidden in the basement. It holds 5.6 Terabytes of data.

Hdomke-

You can use a iTouch as a remote to control iTunes on your
Mac, see:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/node/71

Instead of buying a DAC, you should look at upgrading your amp with a TacT S2150. Less boxes and cables.

Hi H -

obviously you replied to Rbstehno before reading my reply to your questions.

The absolute best file format to use on a Mac with iTunes is Apple Lossless. Apple Lossless contains exactly the same data as a WAV or AIFF file which are both uncompressed. However Apple Lossless was designed to work well with metadata (tags) which WAV and AIFF being older formats were not.

Metadata is the stuff that tells you everything you want to know about the album or song you want to select and play. It enables all of the sorting and list making that makes iTunes such a versatile and powerful integrated solution.

Trust me, you are not the first person who has come on this board fixated on quality reproduction. We all are, and we have all made the switch because we are enjoying better sound then we had before.

BTW no compression of audio files takes place when they are sent via wireless. Audio files are very small, and so they are very easy for computers to deal with. That is one of the big reasons that computers found their way to recording studios long before they ever came to film and television.

The compact file size is why WiFi works and why you can use USB1.1 - small amounts of data, even smaller when compressed.

Think of it this way. The data starts life as a AIFF on your CD. Using iTunes, the data is "ripped" from the CD and stored on a hard drive along with any metadata you may want. When you want to play a song one of two things happens.

If you are using Toslink or a USB DAC, you select the song in iTunes and push Play. The hard drive spins and begins sending data up the USB cable (or Toslink cable) to the DAC. It is the DAC that converts the data back to an analog signal. Incidentally this is the big benefit over sound cards which do the conversion in the electrically noisy computer environment.

If you are using WiFi you may or may not control play from iTunes - this depends if you are using AirExpress (iTunes control) or a Squeezebox on WiFi or Ethernet in which case you will no longer control play from iTunes.

Instead, you will control it at the computer from the SLIM web based browser which looks and works a lot like iTunes, and uses the iTune data library. (SLIM has no capability for ripping but it can read iTunes and iTunes playlists) But having a Squeezebox (SB) gives you a second choice which is to access the hard drive through the SB using the remote.

In short its two way which means you don't have to run back to your computer to change the song. Can be very handy! Also, if you are thinking about doing your whole house an Ethernet network enables you to add a NAS server and eliminate your personal computer from the equation entirely.

Anyhow once again via iTunes, the remote or the web browser, the hard drive spins and sends the data out via WiFi or Ethernet. The data is received and converted at the remote location.

If you want to cable, you have three choices.

If you want to run Toslink and are concerned about mazimum quality you will want/have to use a one of the premium Wireworld SuperNova 5+ glass cable. I ran this from my G5 to my TriVista for a long time with excellent results. The longest length available is 5 meters.

If you want to use Ethernet you will have to go with one (or a mix) of the SLIM products - the Transporter with the Modwright analog mods is supposed to be pretty rocking and will cost about the same as the BelCanto. Note that volume can be controlled through SLIM and iTunes (true digital volume control).

If you want to run USB you can use the Opticis USB fiber optic cable. For about the same money as the long Toslink you can go 100 feet. Note that an Ethernet cable is more compact and requires smaller holes in your house...

What is good about all four of the solutions you are considering is that in each case you are physically decoupling the computer from the DAC. This will help eliminate ground loops and sometimes weird static.

Hope that this is helpful.

I agree with (1) from rbstehno. Get a DAC that sounds good to you and make the PC interface work from there. I've tried DACs with built-in USB interfaces (Benchmark and Cosecant) and haven't been impressed. But everyone has different tastes. If you find a DAC that you like that already has a USB or some other type of PC interface built-in, then that's even better.

Rbstehno,
Thanks for your answers. If I could go farther with my questioning:
"1. get the best dac you can afford."
I was thinking about the $2,500 Bel Canto e.One DAC3 D/A processor. It has a volume control, so that a Preamp would be unnecessary.

I was planning on connecting to the DAC via optical output from the Macintosh via a Toslink cable. Is that the highest quality?

"2. do some experimenting."
I would rather hear from an expert about what is the absolute best file format to use for importing into iTunes. I will be putting this in a high end system. There are only five options:
AAC
AIFF
Apple Lossless
MP3
WAV

Which format is identical to the CD bit-for-bit with no compression? I don't care about file size. Optimal sound is everything!

"3. if you want to use the ipod, you are pretty stuck with itunes."
I don't care if I use my iPod and iPhone with this system. This system will be for critical listening. Are there other applications for a Mac that are superior to iTunes for turning a Mac into a high-end Music Server?

"4. a hard drive is a hard drive"
What I meant to say is: Does the CD-Drive that will be used for importing the music make a difference? I have newer Macs with their latest drives. Is that the best? Does anyone ever use external drives for importing?

"5. i use it with good success."
But is anything given up when using wireless transmission? Is the file compressed for transmission then expanded when you get it? Is there any degradation in sound quality that is due to wireless vs. Ethernet.

"6. wired is already better if you can use it."
I have the option of running Ethernet (but it means drilling a hole in a wall and the floor).

" i use wireless to an airport express device with good success. i use 802.11g"
I am using Apple's 802.11n Extreme Base Station with Gigabit Ethernet.

Hi -

1. What is the right DAC to get? you can use the one you have. If you don't have one I suggest a USB DAC or a Squeezebox depending on what and where you want your systems

2. What is the right format to import files into iTunes for the best sound?
Apple Lossless with error correction on, all other sound functions off

3. Is there other software out there besides iTunes that should be considered on the Mac?
NO

4. Is the drive on the Mac optimal for importing music to the drive?
Yes but it is probably too small and no matter what you will need a second drive to back up to

5. Does transmitting the music over a wireless Internet (Airport) degrade the music in any way?
WiFi is a radio signal. Line of sight is best, thick walls and floors are generally counter indicated for success.

WiFi can degrade the signal in that the signal can be disrupted by external factors leading to drop outs - if you have trouble with a wireless phone in your location, you will probably have trouble with WiFi.

6. Is Ethernet superior to Wireless for music transfer?
Yes in that it is more robust and can be run wherever you want it

7. Are there any good websites to learn more about this?
Do take a look at the PC Forum on Audio Asylum and also search on this Forum - a lot here - keep in mind that this is changing fast so I would look at the most recent posts first

Do keep in mind that doing this on a PC is a very different problem then doing it on a Mac - for instance EAC, Foobar, Secret Rabbit etc are specific to PC as is the K-mixer and ASIO issue

As far as commercial sites, take a look at the SLIM site - they are the leaders in the WiFi/Ethernet space http://www.slimdevices.com/

This blog is a bit old but has a lot of good info
http://musicserver.blogspot.com/

7. Wavelength Audio -or- Empirical Audio

Both sites offer good products and are good sources of information.

7. Wavelength Audio -or- Empirical Audio

Both sites offer good products and are good sources of information.

1. get the best dac you can afford. i use a non-usb dac. if this is for your critical listening room instead of just background music, i would look at dacs from : audio research, mark levinson, classe, bel canto, and there are others.
2. do some experimenting. some people might hear the difference and others might not.
3. if you want to use the ipod, you are pretty stuck with itunes. you also want to look at who provides the airport express options that others might not have. i like itunes myself.
4. a hard drive is a hard drive. if you are going to have a large repository of tunes and if you will be serving possible multiple macs/pc's in your house, i would look at raid network attached devices as an option.
5. i use it with good success. i also use an audio alchemy DTI device to clean up the jitter from the airport express toslink output, then i go into an external dac from the dti.
6. wired is already better if you can use it. i use wireless to an airport express device with good success. i use 802.11g, i wouldn't want to try this with anything less, 802.11n would be better.
7. your on it now.

This is a great discussion, but it has left me with a few questions.
If anyone could help me out with these as I go about turning my Mac into a "Music Server" I would appreciate it.

1. What is the right DAC to get?
2. What is the right format to import files into iTunes for the best sound?
3. Is there other software out there besides iTunes that should be considered on the Mac?
4. Is the drive on the Mac optimal for importing music to the drive?
5. Does transmitting the music over a wireless Internet (Airport) degrade the music in any way?
6. Is Ethernet superior to Wireless for music transfer?
7. Are there any good websites to learn more about this?

Thnx for the kind words.

I would like to clear up one misconception. That is, if you use USB you do not need an internal soundcard. The whole point of both USB and Squeezebox (Ethernet/WiFi) approaches is that you remove the conversion of data to audio formats from the computer environment which is filled with all kinds of nasty stuff (drives, power supplies, video cards etc)

That is why most people after some experience opt to spend their money "outside" the box.

Using the Card Deluxe is not about the outputs, it's about the quality of the sound card itself. It has received numerous accolades from the Audiophile media. These reviews can be easily found on Digital Audios website. That's why your post didn't make any sense to me. You said for $10 you could install a USB card and use the USB DAC of your choice. Sure, but then you're still using the Pc's generic sound card. I apologize for my quick and terse response, if you were offended, I was just pointing out the direction I have taken and provided company names of all the major components. If one wants to put down my venture, please research the components and the reviews they have received.
Once again, I'm sorry if I offended you. Peace and happy listening. (Nice preamp in your system)

I finally purchses the cambridge audio server. I have burned about 200 cds uncompressed and they sound great. I think they are coming down in price. This unit is fairly flexible. It can get internet radio-which has lousy sound-never use it. But it can be wireless-with purchase of wireless connector, and can hook up to your internet. I still have my cd player hooked up but the cd player that comes with it is better than the one I have. I would recommend the server and so far so good.

Under1630-

Just wondering....

What's so special about a soundcard with a Toslink output, powered by a noisy SMPS(does PC Alchemy use linear PSUs?) with no clock link running into a stock Benchmark DAC-1?

1630 -

Dude, don't you think you are being a little harsh? There is no reason to be disrespectful.

Read - and understand my post. A USB card is NOT a generic sound card. It is a USB card. Nothing more or less. One can use it to run any kind of USB device - including DACs.

If you know enough to want the electrical isolation between the PC and the DAC that Toslink provides (because it is fiber) you can achieve the same thing at a lower price with the Opticis USB Fiber Optic cable.

I have been helping people do this for a long time. The point I always make is that there are a lot of different solutions.

Some involve roll your own solutions - because a lot of people who are geekish wouldn't have it any other way. Some prefer buying prebuilt servers as you did. Good choice you are obviously an analog guy.

Posting here is about making people aware of those choices. The best solution is the one that meets your needs. For some people it is budget, for some it is ultimate resolution, for some it is ease of use.

As for zipcord, had you taken one minute to look at my system you would see that we both use Cardas GR...

Sure Ckorody, go ahead and use a generic sound card in your pc. My audio system is too important to me to use a generic sound card. If I were to do this, I might as well use zip cord for my speaker cables.

Looks like they went down a very similar path.

David

Deshapiro-

Have Mr.Lapporte and his partner seen this:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/2/27041.html

Hi Kana813,
He'll be exhbiting a purpose built PC with solid state memory and only one moving part, a queit fan. The Vista OS has been massaged both by Ron and his partner, a computer guru who retired at 38, etc. They chose the midlevel MSB DAC, since they thought that it sounded the best. They use EAC to copy CDs as wav files , and use an HP raid server as storage. I heard their prototype on my system, and it was GOOD.They plan to bring the final iteration to my house after they get back from CES.

David

Interesting rig Under1630

If anyone reading this is considering going this route, keep in mind that it would have cost about $10 to install a USB card instead of the Card Deluxe, and then run to your choice of USB DACs...

You don't need a USB DAC! I have I think what most of you are looking for. I had a PC Alchemy in Carlsbad, CA who builds home theater PC's, build me a home audio PC. Basically it is a PC that sits in your audio rack with the same dimensions as your audio gear. The PC has a 7" touch screen in the front along with the DVD player/burner. The PC has an 80 GB hard drive for the operating system (Win XP) and 3 750 GB hard drives that is my music storage. That's 2.25 TB of storage for your audio.
The key to the system is the Card Deluxe audio card by Digital Audio Labs. I installed the card myself, and it has AES/EBU, RCA and optical outputs. I use the optical output to my DAC 1 by Benchmark Media. The DAC then sends the audio via Balanced interconnects to my preamp.
I have a 21" flat panel monitor on the end table next to the listening chair. I have a wireless keyboard and a remote control that I can control the pc with.
The system works flawlessly and I will put it up against any CD player/transport. I rip all the music off Cd's in FLAC with a compression of 4. That works out to about 300 MB per Cd. I use Media Monkey as my audio player, as it will play all types of audio and doesn't care if your name is Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, it will just play the freakin' file.
Not only does the system perform flawlessly and superbly, but it looks great in the rack also.

Deshapiro-

What will Mr.Lapporte be exhibiting?

Any of you guys plan on being at CES this year? I know Audioengr will have a room, but I was wondering if anyone else might be attending. Maybe we can hook up and browse around together up for a while? Please feel free to drop me an email if you are up for it.

Hi All,
I am still very enthusiastic about the concept. As I also posted, in my system the Crimson simply didn´t have enough bass dynamics. I´m talking about the grunt that you feel with a drum thwack, not flabby, boomy bass. I auditioned the AMR CD player, and found that it provided the bass kick, but that it wasn´t as good as the Crimson in other respects, imaging, staging, tonality, etc. I´m currently using a USB DAC called the iroc which seems to be a good compromise between the Crimcson and the AMR. My dealer is Ron Lapporte at Ultimate Audio, and he will be exhibitng with Rockport and Purist. As with all things, YMMV.

David

Deshapiro, I also wanted to follow-up with you on why your enthusiasm waned on the wavelength audio Crimson USB DAC solution that you put into your system. If memory serves me correct, you went the distance with Alex at Aplhifi explaining how good this setup sounded in the "Game Over" thread? If I am confusing your with someone else, please disregard this question.

Deshapiro, I will be at CES and would love to hear the purpose built PC demo that your dealer will be doing with Rockport. What is your dealer's name and do you know what hotel/room they will be in?

Rbstehno,

Back up drives are cheap for your music library. As for hard drives failing, the one thing that you can be certain of is that they all fail and this can happen at any time.

As for the iPod Touch, I love mine using RemoteBuddy.

i mentioned in another thread that macbooks or laptops would not be good for a music server. the reason is they get hot and heat will promote an early death for the computer. after using your macbook for a while, feel the bottom. mine gets very hot and so do my friends. now take a mac mini or macpro and do the same thing. very cool, i have my mini on top of a 500gb drive that fits under the mini and it runs cool.
a nas is the way to go but you still need a good backup in case the nas fails. i have 2 friends both in the IT trade and they both lost thousands of $$$$ when their nas failed and they lost all the data on the nas. 1 friend had over $3000 of purchased apple music that was lost and the other friend had over 1000 cd's ripped to his nas and the he gave away all his cd's and the unit failed.
my setup in my den contains: totem speakers, definitive technology supercube sub, sony 9000es dvd/cd/sacd, nikko fm tuner, dk design vs-1, adcom gda-700 dac, audio alchemy dti, mac mini, and airport express. i have both the dvp9000es and the airport express hooked up to the dti to cleanup the jitter, and from the dti to the dac.
i have other rooms with airport express unit hooked up to receivers in those rooms. i have my macbook control the mac mini running itunes from the other parts of the house. i'm purchasing an ipod touch that will also allow me to control the mac mini running itunes from anywhere in the house.

Brontotx: I didn't mention that I was going to be recording HDTV across my gigabit network to the NAS so speed was extermly important plus the extra 750gig of space the extra drive provided. I would not recommend the Thecus NAS's for the weak at heart..

Cytocyle - while my day of reckoning with a large music library (~1,200 CDs) on a ReadyNAS NV+ is still a few weeks away, the information contained in the "Artwork Setup" section of Slimserver's help section suggests that memory is the issue, not CPU performance. Specifically, this section states:

"Artwork for large song libraries places a significant memory load on the slimserver. There are references to the cover art kept in memory of the SlimServer for each song. This can add up fairly quickly.

The SlimServer stores, in memory, the path where the artwork can be found for each song. Long path names and many songs can cause the SlimServer to use more memory than is phycially installed on the server. This can have any of a number of impacts, from slow performance to complete failure of the SlimServer to run. The raw artwork file is read on demand, so artwork file size has no impact on the SlimServer itself.

You can turn off the artwork scan completely to save memory usage."

While I agree that your Thecus setup is decidedly faster, Slimserver's warning regarding memory and art work was the reason I upgraded the memory to 1 GB on my NV+ from the standard 256 MB. I will know soon enough whether this will prove sufficient (I'm sure hoping so as I really don't care to deal with a "complete failure").

You are also correct about the ease of the NV+ setup - it took me maybe all of ten minutes.

Hi Brontox,
No problem about the Crimson. It has a new home. I'm still firmly committed to the server concept. I'm trying out another USB DAC, but I've also auditioned a purpose -built PC running into an MSB Platinum DAc that was stunning. The second option allows for digital room correction in the digital domain, prior to the DAC. That is a solution that marries different technologies in an interesting way. For thtose that are interested, my dealer will be exhibitng with Rockport at CES. Unfortunately I can't go, but I'd be love to hear from anybody that will be there.

David Shapiro

If you have a big collection and plan on running slimserver on a NAS, the new MySQL based Slimserver needs more CPU power than the Infrant ReadyNas NV+ has if you plan on doing cover art. I too bought from Aegis but bought a Thecus N5200Pro (5x750gig drives in Raid 5) which has a 1.5ghz Celron and supports 5 drives which is 3x faster than anything Infrant makes and also has 1 more drive. It does require more setup so not for those who are not PC networking savy.... The Infrant is more friendly than the Thecus... but the performance of the Thecus is stunning (Faster than any of my XP or 2003 servers over gigabit by 2-4x the speed)

Brontotx - one of the very cool things about SLIM software is that it is open source - the apps you are describing are most likely just that.

The flip side is the "hard to get working" part. This is also true of EAC which is the "awesome" PC ripping software that is shareware (or freeware) from Germany. Here to it takes a lot of time and know how to get the most out of it.

While iTunes for the moment does not appear to be as good a solution for the PC folks as it is for the Mac, there are huge benefits in terms of ease of use, tech support etc. After all over 100M iPods have been sold, all running on iTunes. Besides the fact that I am personally very pleased with it, that is why I point most newbies at it.

BTW SLIM is coming out with a major whoel number release (V7) - it will be interesting to see what they have done to make it an easier to use and more lovable interface.

Once set up, you all seem to like the harddrive option much better, or are willing to deal with potentially slight sonic losses for ease of music.

The convenience factor is certainly nice, but the real bonus of going to a HD system is the better sound quality. If done right, a computer system will just sound better than a CDP. At least that's been my experience and it seems the experience of many others based on what I've read here and on other sites. I've used some higher end players in the past that just don't compare to the sonics made available by my laptop and DAC. Check out this thread:

PC-Audio vs. High-end CD Player-GAME OVER

CK - I don't use itunes, so please take my $0.02 about this with a grain of salt. Basically, my understanding from what I have read on the SD forum is that folks have developed add-on programs that allow SlimServer to "capture" whatever is playing in itunes and/or the itunes playlists without having to use SlimServer. These programs were apparently developed due to folks preferring itunes for navigation versus SlimServer. These programs are shareware and apparently take some effort to get working, nor do they provide all the funcionality everyone desires (thus, my prior "not mac-easy" comment).

Jpod -

Not sure what's the latest and greatest as mentioned above but to date iTunes is redundant to the SlimServer software when it comes to actual playback over an SB. In other words, the SB software provides the same functionality of iTunes(not entirely accurate since it doesn't rip but close enough)

I use iTunes to do all of my ripping, adding metadata (album covers mostly) and generating playlists. The cool part is that all of the songs including the playlists and the metadata is also used by the iPod and the SlimServer software.

To be clear - iTunes, iPod and Slim all access and share the same files. Of course the iPod accesses them through iTunes, while you simply point the Slim software at the iTunes Library folder.

While cludgy and not "mac-easy", there are apparently workarounds to using itunes on Slim Devices. See the forum on the Slim Devices website and search for "using itunes".

Also, Slim Devices has a new control device, "Jive", coming out soon (reportedly early January) that will be a lot more user friendly. See: http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=47279.0

There is also new software, "SqueezeCenter", that will reportedly be a big improvement over SlimServer.

While these improvements are being driven internally, Slim Devices software is "open source" and there are a lot of outside developers working to overcome the current shortcomings... all of this technoliogy is relatively new and, as one of the developers on the Slim Devices forum stated: "wear shades, the future is bright".

Please understand that I am not trying to compare the Sonos and Slim Devices, but am trying to provide information about the SD route I chose so that others can hopefuly be better informed about what is out there and how it works (at least for me). Frankly, the Sonos is a fine device and if I had already owned a high end DAC, it would have been a route I would have given more consideration.

Jpod - no, you must use slim-server.