As a broad generalization, monitor speakers are often better at imaging than full rangers. Proper placement for optimal imaging for mids and highs is seldom the best placement for bass (viz room boundary effects), a handicap of full rangers. A set of monitors plus sub could theoretically be better than a full range set up. The hard part is integrating the sub into the monitors. The sub needs to be fast enough to keep up with the monitors, properly located in the room, and levels and phases matched for a smooth blend. Also, large full rangers could overwhelm your less than 600 sq ft room, as you suspected. |
If you want to go the monitor route, you have a number of options open to you. However, you will get basically no bass performance and will need to augment with a subwoofer. I would suggest going to a store and listen to the new B&W Signature 805 with a comparable sub (REL mates well with B&W) and at the same time take a listen to the N802. There is a lot to chose from in the sub $10k range and should be able to find either a great full range speaker or sub/sat for that money.
Keep in mind to get good HT performance you will need a sub with either route that you choose... You will have to make a compromise when trying to choose HT or audio in the same system.
Also, a 600 sq ft room is plenty large to run a full range speaker that won't overload your room. |
Jameswei summed up things pretty well. However, I think once you get into $5K-10K full range speakers, many image very well.
One question for you. Are you sure about room size? A 600 sq ft room is pretty large. A room that is 30 x 20 is 600 sq feet. Some floor standing speakers may not even be capable of filling a room that large. BTW I've lived in smaller apartments than that! |
I should have added more specific information, the processor is a Simaudio Attraction with stereo sub outs.
The subs currently are HSU VTF-3's(pair) and a VTF-2 on the center run from line level inputs. Might pick up a Outlaw ICMB and only use it only for the center.
Without going to unbalanced cables(the HSU are unbalanced)and using the subs crossover, which I think is a bad idea in practice, correct if I am wrong, the processor would be doing the crossovers. Or I could use the Outlaw for all the crossovers, I just don't think that would be a good idea. I would like to avoid using an outboard crossover.
I guess the analog bypass would be out the window in in this case.
If I crossed the subs at 90hz or 80hz could this overload the subs? I generally try cross as low as possible. The processor has x points at 50,65,80,90 and up.
I know the subs are not the best, just when you want to run stereo thing cost twice as much. Funny how that works...:)
Thanks all
Marty |
Good point on the 600 sq ft room... now that I just realized how large that is, you will need a rather large pair of speakers to fill that kind of space and don't think you will get by with a pair of monitors.
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In general, less than 500sq feet. The average room size, 600 is getting pretty big. |
I don't have much experience with HT, so take this with a grain of salt. Monitors add the expense of stands, usually loose bass response for the same amount of floor space, need sub woofer(s) (my experience is that two are much better than one) and additional floor space, cables and sometimes amps and electrical outlets/conditoning(?). Can be very challangeing to make the whole system coherent. The benefits of monitors are that you often get more rigid cabinets, better imaging and you can "tune" to the room better by using sub woofers. Digital room correction can really help when using monitors and sub woofers. Good luck. |
The above posters all agree with me ;-) so I would just like to add my 2 cents and hope it helps.
Your room is quite big and so is your budget. There are some darn good full-range speakers available for what you have to spend, including my Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rods. They image beautifully. You can get center and rear channel units from Meadowlark too. The Shearwaters go down to 40 Hz easy, maybe lower, but I didn't get that performance out of them till I upgraded the power cord on my Klyne preamp to an Ensemble Powerflux.
Your Attraction has a great preamp by all reports, so it deserves a premium cord if it doesn't have one already.
Getting a musical system match with a sub is a headache. I wouldn't consider a sub unless I knew for sure the rest of my system was already giving its best. |
The above posters all agree with me ;-) so I would just like to add my 2 cents and hope it helps.
Your room is quite big and so is your budget. There are some darn good full-range speakers available for what you have to spend, including my Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rods. They image beautifully. You can get center and rear channel units from Meadowlark too. The Shearwaters go down to 40 Hz easy, maybe lower, but I didn't get that performance out of them till I upgraded the power cord on my Klyne preamp to an Ensemble Powerflux.
Your Attraction has a great preamp by all reports, so it deserves a premium cord if it doesn't have one already.
Getting a musical system match with a sub is a headache. I wouldn't consider a sub unless I knew for sure the rest of my system was already giving its best. |
The above posters all agree with me ;-) so I would just like to add my 2 cents and hope it helps.
Your room is quite big and so is your budget. There are some darn good full-range speakers available for what you have to spend, including my Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rods. They image beautifully. You can get center and rear channel units from Meadowlark too. The Shearwaters go down to 40 Hz easy, maybe lower, but I didn't get that performance out of them till I upgraded the power cord on my Klyne preamp to an Ensemble Powerflux.
Your Attraction has a great preamp by all reports, so it deserves a premium cord if it doesn't have one already.
Getting a musical system match with a sub is a headache. I wouldn't consider a sub unless I knew for sure the rest of my system was already giving its best. |
Woops, please excuse the duplicate posts, folks. Must try to find a better way to increase my readership ;-) |
No problem Tobias - I read them all word for word :-)
If I had a 20x30 room and a $10K budget, I'd start by looking at floor standers and go the monitor route only if I was still left wanting. You don't mention whether this room is dedicated or shared-purpose - if it's the latter, I'd be more likely to go the monitor route, as they're less visually obtrusive. As others have said, $10K can buy a lot of speaker, and an incredibly good performing one, so if you have the room for it, that's what I'd do. -Kirk |
Room size is only a general factor. I am sure I would be moving some day. No married so I just have at it.
I really am looking for new speakers and am wondering what a better route might be. It seems that the less cabnet one buys, the better the drivers/design might be. Also with HT if I already am using subs, why not use them all the time.
Thanks all
Marty |
Since your settings and set-up with the subs are likely to be ideally optimized differently for music and HT, you may not want to depend on them for your music reproduction if they're primarily used for HT. The best way around this is to go fuller-range on the mains, and push the sub response down in frequency so that they don't interfere with the music as much. For what sounds to me like actually a fairly large room size, and given your budget and dual-use intentions, I'd go floorstander on the speakers, and use the subs only for true sub-bass augmentation, or turn 'em off entirely when playing music. (Then again, I don't care about HT at all compared to music, and consequently don't even own an HT set-up [though I've sold 'em], so take my word only for what it's worth...) |
Last 12 years, I've had 10 pairs of monitors and 7 pairs of floorstanders. Also used 10 different subs during this time. Until this year, the best monitor I had was the Sonus Faber Electa Amator I and the best floorstander was the Genesis APM-1. This was the only floorstander that was a TRUE full range speaker because of the built in 15" sub in each tower. All the rest needed subs to get the last octave of music or the LFE in movies.
My conclusion, you need a sub to get true full range (20Hz~20kHz) so why bother spending the money on the cabinet if you can spend it on higher quality drivers in monitors. The floorstanders are also harder to place, move, pack and ship if you decide to upgrade too. The cost of stands for monitors is minimal, particularly on Audiogon. Once you have good ones, you can keep them for all future monitors.
The REL subs are the way to go for both HT & 2ch because they have a unique Neutrik speaker level input that takes the signal from the power amp for seamless integration with the L/R speakers. It also has a line level input for the LFE channel from a HT processor that can be hooked up simultaneously.
Finally, my discovery of the year, a monitor that really goes down to 40Hz! (-1.5db, not -3 or -10db) The System Audio SA2K uses custom ScanSpeak drivers in a unique 14"Hx7"Wx12"D cabinet. Its sound bested the SF EA1 and with the REL sub beats the APM-1's. See it at http://www.system-audio.com/showpage.asp?siteid=2&id=312 |
Check out Verity Audio (www.verityaudio.com). They have
a monitor/Parsifal encore and a woofer unite that mates.
The reviews are always great and I see them, with woofer, going for
around $7500 in Audiogon. |
