FWIW, I owned and sold that Yggy dac, the slightly modded Orchid sounds way less bright and digital to my ears and in my system.
Since the Amber 3 has come into mention by grannyring (who modded my Orchid) Bill and myself would say it’s pretty darn unanimous the Amber 3 along with Orchid sound way more musical and natural to our ears.
I have had the directstream in my system and I feel that the other options are superior in every way. I used it daily for a month, so it was well burned in. I’ve had difficulty reconciling my experience with other reports (e.g., the stereophile class a rating). It just didn't work in my system.
@jzzmusician and I were talking and he asked me to post the following on this thread because it could easily have been overlooked on the MHDT Orchid tube rolling thread elsewhere on this Forum. I read with interest 213cobra’s idea of using a 5670 to 6DJ8 socket adapter to allow substitution of a 6DJ8 in place of the GE 5670 tube or Western Electric alternative, so I purchased one of those adapters on the ’net and swapped in an Amperex made-in-Holland 6DJ8 for the GE tube. I think it is a very worthwhile upgrade. I’d describe it as on the scale of moving from the sound of a Baldwin piano to a big Steinway or Bosendorfer. Tonally the music is more fully fleshed out with a gorgeous midrange. Soundstage is larger, note trails and decays are clearer and more interesting. The music is warm, beautiful, illuminated, nuanced, emotionally rich.
If you’re interested in reading more on this please seek out the thread here on Audiogon titled something like MHDT Orchid tube rolling. There’s also a nice long thread on this topic on Head-fi.
I have heard the PSAudio dacs a long time ago and I once owned the Schiit Yiggy. The Schiit is a fine dac (not my cup of tea) and while I really like Paul and his no nonsense but considerate demeanor, I don’t believe either of these dacs belong in the same conversation with the Amber 3. Again, my system, my ears, YMMV.
Back to the original topic: the Orchid and the Tubadour are both terrific dacs at their respective pricepoints, the Amber 3 is at another level entirely. Peace.
Not sure why one would need to go the adaptor route when the $69 Western Electric tube is so fantastic and miles ahead of the stock GE tube? Just seems unnecessary? However, if you love tube rolling have at it!
I forgot to share my final thoughts of the Amber 3 vs the upgraded Orchid. The two are really wonderful and I could live with either and not feel like I miss the other.....if that makes sense.
The Amber 3 is a little more resolving and throws a bigger stage. The upgraded Orchid is still less fussy of recording quality and just makes you smile. Both are beautiful sounding with great dynamics and bass. The upgraded Orchid’s bass is just a tad better. More impact and slam.
I don’t think either one is an upgrade over the other, simply a slightly different set of relative strengths. The Amber 3 however is twice as expensive after the fuse and tube upgrade. If you love a very large sound stage with extraordinary detail presented in vivid beauty with a touch of warmth, then the Amber 3 will please you greatly. In addition the Amber 3 remains a bit more composed at high volumes of over 88db or so. This maybe important to you.
The upgraded Orchid sounds a touch more full through the lower mids and packs incredible bass slam and weight. It does a better job of dealing with the digital nasties like glare that can rear it’s ugly head on certain recordings. It just sounds right folks. That special piece of gear that helps you enjoy your music library easily and fully.
The stock Orchid is outclassed by the Amber 3 after full break in as an FYI. The Amber 3 simply delivers more nuance, scale, drive and resolution.
I haven't had a chance to compare the 6Dj8 to the Western Electric tube in the Orchid. However, 213cobra apparently has done that comparison and it was his idea of trying out this adapter and his opinion was that the six DJ eight variety was better. I can't really say. I just know that it sounds great.
It should be noted that some if not all DACs accel at a specific connection/input
Comparing just spdif for example across the board is pretty limiting or at least can be as many designs put everything into say implementation of their USB and that particular DAC will perform best at. But if spdif is the connection type one wants then you need to consider that variable significantly. Again regardless of connection type, or one’s preferences, it’s all about the DACs implementation of said connection type.
Well if the socket enables one to roll tubes that sound better than the WE, then wonderful. I would check with MHDT as these other tubes will have varying voltage requirements.
I believe Amber 3 can play native DSD 64 and 128 files unlike Orchid. Has anyone tested different file types (high res flac & DS) and their impression?
Thanks stewg, Grannyring and I were a little concerned about that procedure. I have four extra NOS 1964 Siemen Halske E88CC gold pins for my Cal Audio Aria. Looking through my storage, I found six NOS Marconi 6SN7s, there’s also an adapter for those, but that’s another story down the road.
The Siemen tube sounds like it could be a great alternative, given the write up on Brent Jessee's website. I've tended toward the midrange of nos Mullard tubes in my previously owned tube preamp. But either way, if a 6DJ8 variant brings my Grannyrings' modded Orchid dac up to yet another level, holy cow!
I have reviewed the Orchid professionally for Six Moons, gave it a rave review, purchased the demo and still think the stock version is a great piece.
Just recently a good friend who does high quality modding of his gear, brought over his Orchid that virtually had all the parts/modifications that Grannyring recommends. Yes, it performs on a higher level then the stock Orchid. However , both the modified Orchid and the Amber 3, in my system, fall quite short of the "magic" that is rendered by the Audio Mirror Troubadour III SE DAC. Across, on all parameters ( tonality/color, micro-details/transparency, sound-staging /air around instruments/layering, and powerful dynamics) it performed on a higher basis. It also delivered the highest level of liquidity and a sense of intimacy/attachment with the music compared to the other DACs. These differences were easy to hear on all types of genres of music. So, yes if it's in your budget the Troubadour is worth the $ upswing, compared to a modified Orchid, and I believe it is slightly less expensive then the Amber 3 DAC.
teajay - Given your assessment of the Troubadour vs the upgraded Orchid and the Lampi how is the stock Orchid still a "great piece" ? You note the that upgraded Orchid is better than the stock version, yet you characterize the upgraded Orchid and Lampi as falling "quite short of the magic", lower in performance on all parameters , and having less liquidity and sense of intimacy than the Troubadour?
First, the Orchid is extremely well built, uses a great sounding NOS Phillips DAC chip, and costs $1,500 less then the Troubadour. If there is any objectivity vs. personal taste in this hobby, the Audio Mirror does performs on a higher level. However, this higher level of performance will only be revealed if the rest of the system has enough resolution to allow it to shine through. Therefore, the Audio Mirror DAC does not make the Orchid null and void, just a great sounding DAC at a more affordable price point, that would be great in many less costly systems. If I could not afford the Troubadour, I would not loss sleep over it, and still get immense pleasure out of the Mhdlab piece. However, the Troubadour 3 SE takes everything to even a higher level of musical enjoyment.
Would need to know the parts used in the upgraded Orchid. That makes a big difference. Don’t know if apples to apples. Please let us know the output caps used, SR Orange fuse, Zfoil resistors etc... Other parts don’t work as well in sonic areas you and many others find most important. The Vcap combo of Odam and CuTF is a must on the output. Zfoil resistors are also a must.
The Amber 3 must have at least 300 hours of play to hear what it really sounds like. Anything less, then one does not really hear it. Also, the Amber responds wonderfully to an added SR Orange fuse and nice NOS 12au7 from Amperex or Brimar. If just given a short addition with a new(er) Amber the magic is missed and the Amber’s potential unrealized. She needs time and attention to details to sound her best.
Finally, all these dacs are placed in systems, rooms and ears that have a starting sound personality and real sound preferences. No doubt system synergy and preferences play a substantial role with the particular dac one would enjoy the most. Just the way it is in audio as nothing is ever universally accepted as best for all persons in all systems. Audiophile reality.
One last interesting point. The Amber 3 I now listen to is a completely different sounding dac than the new one I played for 12 straight days 24/7. One would be reviewing or auditioning two different dacs really. Post break in with upgraded fuse and 12au7 the Amber 3 sings with a much different voice. One needs substantial time and attention to details to hear what this dac is capable of. I almost gave up, but am glad I did not. Patience paid off this time. Hard for me to always be patient.
for those of us keeping score at home, presently in your system, you have a stock Orchid, a stock Amber 3 and the upgraded Tubadour? Then to that trio you inserted temporarily an upgraded Orchid? I just want to understand the sequencing.
On a personal note, thank you for all you do for our hobby.
" Orchid ....just a great sounding DAC at a more affordable price point, that would be great in many less costly systems."
Your recommendation of the Orchid in your Six Moons review did not state or suggest that it would be great in a "less costly system"; it went into your "big system".
Here's some information regarding the above stated questions:
1) facten- we have done this dance before- if what I wrote in my review or on this thread does not satisfy what you are looking for, that's your problem and not mine. I believe that what I wrote is pretty clear about my position regarding these different DACs.
2) Grannyring- I believe my friend's mods to the Orchid were very close to yours, and yes it made an improvement, but not to the degree that it was on the same level as the Audio Mirror SE piece. The Amber 3 had many hundreds of hours on it, so burn-in was not an issue. Also, Bill your statement regarding different gear, subjective taste, different room acoustics, and system synergy is spot on. Therefore, everyone must try these different pieces to see if they can get what they want in their own systems. I don't want to start a fight, but sometimes I wonder if it takes hundreds or thousands of hours of break-in/burn-in to get the piece's performance to change for the better, or do we hear it or experience it differently because of our mood/intent over a very lengthy period of time. Frankly, I have never had a piece of gear that started out sounding lousy, blossom into something superlative much later. I have had many pieces for review that sounded excellent right out of the crate, and then got better with around 50 to 150 hours of burn-in.
3) ghasley- First thanks for the kind words regarding what I share here and in my reviews. Yes, you got the order correct, regarding the DACs in my home system.
Thanks for the reply. I’m not exactly sure why people get angry or snarky, you merely report your observations and we all can either choose to benefit from your findings or not. Its just audio folks. Our own observations may differ or align but isn’t that what’s fun?
Regarding break in, I was always a skeptic but have become a little more open minded about it. Cables, especially if they happen to have inline networks, do take a bit of time. Tube gear, does take a bit of time. Tube gear with tube rectification or tubes in the power supplies seem to take longer still. I dont quite understand why and I used to be mildly dismissive until I experienced my first truly painful break in experience with an Audio Research Ref 5se preamp. I made the assumption it had to do with 4 tubes in the pre and 2 tubes in the power supply.
The most painful break in period though was with the Amber 3. I’m going to guess it was to do with the tube rectification, I don’t know. If someone asked me I would honestly have to say to expect the Amber 3 to come into its own after 400 hours and it still evolves after 500. I know this because I first experienced the Amber 3 in my system by placing a well broken in demo unit into rotation. I then received my brand new unit and it flat out sounded broken. No joke, broken. Today it doesn’t but thats after a long (500+ hours) breakin, a NOS 12au7 tube and setting it to low gain.
It isn’t my lead dac in my main system but it does occupy a place in my office system, anchored by a Leben cs600x. The Amber 3 is a fine dac, the Tubadour is a fine dac, the Orchid is a fine dac as was the Border Patrol. For this system, for what I was after, I sold all of these except the Amber 3. Once again, I wasnt test driving these, I owned them. The cost of entry didnt enter into my decision because (gratefully) this isn’t my rent money. Its entertainment.
BUT...BUT...if anyone reading this believes that any one of the aforementioned dacs is right and the others sound broken, dont believe them. They are each terrific and each suitable for the long term enjoyment of the purchaser. Dont for a minute though believe these are end game giant killer pieces. They are not going to put Aqua or Totaldac or Lampizator or MSB out of business. They are, however, so good that the law of diminishing returns requires a sanity check for each of us. It used to be that dacs up to a certain pricepoint were unlistenable, now, we are lucky that that is no longer the case.
Yes my Amber is still changing for the better at over 300 hours. Another thing we need to consider is the input we are using. I know the Amber 3’s USB input is one of its strong suits and possibly the best input to use depending on your server/transport. Will the coax sound as good? Maybe, or maybe not. My system is maxed out and tweaked out for superb USB sound.
Also, DSD recordings do sound better with the Amber 3 and the other two units can’t go there. No doubt DSD sounds better than the same recording non-DSD in my system. The Amber 3 lets me hear those sonic benefits while the others don’t. I have a lot of DSD recordings.
Finally, I use a no gain preamp that benefits from the added drive of the Amber over the other two dacs. This is where system synergy really influences my system and preferences.
The Orchid can be taken to new sonic heights with rightly chosen parts in key positions. One needs to know those exact resistor positions and exact values. The output caps must be Vcap Odam 2.2uf and Vcap CuTF .01 uf bypass. The combo is magic in the Orchid. All fun!
Come on guys, lay off @teajay the Lab12 dac was well reviewed by @teajay and it was done in an A vs B vs aural memory of other higher end dacs. He stated his opinion and went on the record. He never said “this is the finest dac that will ever be made” he said “this is a fine dac”. He also never said “I’ve heard everything out there and this is it, the chosen one”.
To his great credit, and this can not be overstated, he has tried other gear and isn’t afraid to say “hey, I heard something better”. To me, this is a big deal and gives his impressions on a given item even more credibility. Unlike many who review gear, he isn’t afraid to say he has heard something he likes better. It doesn’t invalidate his prior reviews, it actually provides context and a hierarchy along his review chronology.
@teajay likes the Tubadour that came his way spontaneously and organically through this forum. That’s awesome guys! For those who are certain that all professional reviewers are “on the take” need only visit this thread to discover, on the contrary, we have someone who was open minded and open to the idea of trying something he hadn’t heard, objectively evaluating it and then going on record. Shouldn’t this be celebrated rather than people taking potshots that he didn’t marry the Lab12 for life?
Keep up the great work @teajay , you have alot of fans out here who appreciate what you are doing, how you go about it and most of all, for posting your opinions here and not just in your writings for web-zines. You and I may not always share the same level of appreciation for certain pieces of gear but most on here aren’t looking for someone to guide their purchase decisions, they are looking for another data point to determine if a test drive would be beneficial. To anyone who bought a Lab12 dac based solely on his review, you got a fine dac. If you are disappointed that he was unwilling to cast his affection for the Lab12 in stone there are many more of us out here who are thrilled that there is a “professional reviewer” categorically willing to tell the truth. Even if it means leaving a former love for a new love.
ghasley, Terrific post re: teajay! I agree with everything you stated and you did so beautifully. I read something from somebody awhile ago that sort of went like this,"You may have the very best, and it is, until you run across something better." - Bob
My main dac is presently an Aqua La Scala MkII Optologic with a pair of NOS Mullard 6201 tubes installed. It replaced a Nagra Classic dac which replaced a Totaldac D1-Tube-MkII which replaced a Chord Dave. All have been fed by an Innuos Zenith MkIII via a Final Touch Audio Callisto USB cable. I’ve run it single ended and balanced and the balanced outputs sound ever so slightly better.
The Amber 3 and the La Scala are both terrific, the La Scala is overall more refined. A more elegant top to bottom presentation but there are some areas where the differences are negligible or even in the Amber’s favor(like bass and layering). The Aqua build quality is off the hook good, both dacs have a proven upgrade path.
If you were demoing the La Scala and the Amber 3, single ended, at home and didn’t own either it would be difficult to justify the price differential.
The S2 was not great, the S3...I don’t want to offend anyone but its kindof average sounding. I like most of the dacs discussed in this thread better but everyone should trust their own ears. I’m not sure I understand the logic of having that dac on the market at that retail pricepoint. For a company capable of building the La Scala and the Formula, it just doesnt make alot of sense to me. A company’s entry level product ought to be a gateway drug.
My audio buddy owned the La Scala MKIII Opto and sold it as he preferred the LaVoce S3 in his system. Just goes to show how real personal preferences and system synergy is. No kidding, he loves the S3! The La Scala just could not please him over the long run. He upgraded tubes, but still liked the S3 more.
He had the very latest MKIII from the factory which sounded better than an earlier version of the MKIII. He mention to the manufacturer how both MKIII units sounded very different. The builder said they had used better solder and certain parts were upgraded. Well my friend heard the difference! Still liked the S3 more than the latest La Scala.
Hmmmmm, it would be interesting to know your buddy’s system, soup to nuts, from the wall to the ear. You are correct though, its all a matter of what sounds right to the individual. I’ve had some great dacs and someone somewhere has declared each of them as end game pieces. That’s why I always try to be objective that every person must make up their own mind and decide what works best in their circumstances: the room, the room, the ac, the cables, the electronic chain, the room....I’m not one of those chasing the latest greatest but I know what I prefer.
I know what music I enjoy sounds like. I had to make a decision a long time ago as I had aspirations of being a professional musician. I got that out of my system pretty quickly as the best in the business had holes in their shoes. Not for me, so I guess I wasn’t driven enough to be a musician if it meant living hand-to-mouth.
Anyway, I guess I’m also a bit of a tube guy as well. Other than my Innuos, every piece of gear I have uses tubes. I keep trying though and the Nagra Classic Dac/Classic integrated got very close for me. Peace.
@facten Not in my system but same system, side by side. I thought the S3 was a fine dac but kindof unremarkable. In short, the La Scala does most everything better to my ears (the S3 MAY have had a slight bass advantage, very slight if at all), especially when it comes to dynamic swings and the music feeling alive rather than just "played back". Maybe 30 minutes on each dac is all that day. I believe the Tubadour is better than the S3 for my tastes.
My same friend purchased the AM Tubadour dac ( one step down from the SE) and returned it after the trial period in favor of the S3 LaVoce. He felt it was just a tad flat and plain sounding. He has the Don Sachs 6sn7 preamp, McIntosh M452 amp, Innuos Zenith server, my cables and Legacy Signature SE speakers.
I like the LaVoce S3 dac and the Aqua brand. . I have always wanted to hear the Mojo Audio Mystique dac. Ben of Mojo is vocal about his dislike of any tube dac claiming tubes have no place in dacs. He suggests they are too noisy and limited in performance for use in digital front ends. Ha! Very opinionated guy for sure.
I bought the LaVoce S3 back in October without auditioning to give the Aqua brand a try. I've stopped tracking the hours but would guess it has close to 300 on it. To my ears it's a musically engaging DAC with a balanced sound. I haven't heard the LaScala, but may see if Atelier 13 in Nashville will allow me to make a trip up from the Memphis area and accommodate me for a listen and possible comparison with my S3. Since I have been breaking in and enjoying the S3 I haven't put my Modwright Elyse DAC (6922 tubes) back into my main system but will in a couple of weeks to see which one I prefer in it.
Speakers - Daedalus Argos V2s
Amps - I rotate between these every two or three weeks for a different flavor : Modwright LS100 6SN7 pre & KWA100 SE solid state power ; Line Magnetic 518 IA integrated; Finale Audio 7189 MK2 integrated
Transports - Cambridge CXC; Wadia 171i
Analogue & Digital Interconnects - Silnote Audio (various models)
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