Hi David,
Nice to hear from you again and really glad you are having fun. By the way, the Ellington Jazz Party sounded goofy good on the VPI TNT VI in Vegas.
Thanks again.
B@m |
You guys are like the upper class of the high end. Very discriminating and very demanding. That's great. I'm glad you exist. I've learned a lot by just sitting back in the wings. I've never heard the Karma/Tenor or Merlin/Joule combo. So, I don't know shit about the differences. But I do own the VSM-M with BAM being driven by the latest and greatest Allan Bhagan-tweaked version of David Berning's ZH270. Man-O-Man! To my ears and my pocket book, I've got the best thing going. All thanks go to Bobby Palkovic. |
Jim2,
I am running a Metromome CD-2V Signature direct into a Berning ZH270 with Harmonic Technology Pro Silway MkII interconnects and Analysis Plus Bi-Oval 9 speaker cables. I hope to upgrade to an Audio Aero Capitole in the near future as well as Cardas cables. |
Hanson, what equipment are you using to run the Merlins at home? Thx. |
I am a current owner of the latest version of the VSM-M and have had many pleasurable hours of listening to them in my system. I heard the "X" version at CES this year and feel after listening to the new version there is about a 30% improvement which kept me coming back to the room for more. The "X" version is more dymanic and the bass seems to be tighter and more defined. The richness and clarity of sound struck me as well.
There always were subtle, but audible changes that Bobby did to improve the sound, but IMHO with the "X" version he has taken the speaker to the next level of refinement which I did not think was possible until I heard it. I will be taking mine to the Merlin factory for the upgrade ASAP. |
First of all, I just want to say that music is music. If it sounds good it sounds good. I play the saxophone. During my final highschool concert, I had a long solo so I played some multiphonics and fiddled around in the altissimo register. Saxophonists in the lower grade loved it cause they thought it was hip and cool. My girlfriend and her friend that I invited to the concert covered their ears and thought "what the hell was that?"
Naturally I've spent a lot of time sitting in front of trumpets and trombones. When they're playing ballads they absolutely sound wonderful! Nice and warm. When they're blasting away? It was fatiguing. Was it live? Yes. Was it amplified? No. But damn I wanted to cover my ears.
I also play the flute so I've spent quite a bit of time sitting next (to the right even!) to a piccolo. Like trumpets at full blast in the upper octaves, it's going to pierce your ears. It doesn't matter if it's natural sounding.
The Kharmas are great speakers. I've heard them and I own a pair. They are amazing speakers indeed. I have never heard the Merlins but do have a friend who owns a pair and he has only good things to say about the Merlins. I also trust a lot of people when it comes to audio. I trust Jtinn's ears. I very much like the fact that he'll give you his honest opinion. He'll be straight with you and some people like that and some people don't. For me, I love Jonathan and I consider him a friend even though I have never met him. I just know that he'll try his best to help me whenever I need it.
Back to the original post. I think you can't go wrong with the Kharmas. My preference for listening to trios besides the music is the little things that each musican does. Resolution and detail thus becomes pretty critical in adding that last bit of enjoyment. The Kharmas will give you the resolution you need. The drum kit and cymbals just sounds so real. |
Thanks Bobby. Always on the lookout for new tunes! |
Yes, it is Bob Mintzer and the disc is called The Body Acoustic, Chesky JD274.
Bobby |
I think it was Bob Mintzer. I have it at work.
B@merlin |
Bobby, do you happen to recall the title of the Chesky cd? Thanks. |
Michael,
You are most welcome and if you have a chance to listen to the MX in particular, let me know. I would just like to know what is in the system to see whether you'll get a good indication of what they can do. But for the most part, I will be watching the product association very closely in the beginning and not selling any to individuals that may have problems so you should be okay.
Thanks again,
Bobby@merlin |
Bobby.... I hope to hear the Merlins sometime in the future. There are no dealers in my area, just like the Kharma's. The other Kharma I would like to own has gone off the radar screen (up 30%) for now thanks to the really weak dollar. LOL!
Your input into this thread shows what a real gentleman you are. Thanks for the informative posts.
Michael |
Panorama,
I hope that you believe me when I say that I really admire your speaker choice. I also hope that everyone sees that there is no right and wrong here but that personal preference is most important. After all, you are the one who has to pay for and live with the choice in the end.
Daveyf,
I think the point about the horn player's speaker is a good one but think that this was probably another example of where the product was so loaded to one side of the medium that it sounded really dynamic, present and live on drums but lacked the relaxed and ambient qualities to make it enjoyable on recorded music. This and the opposite of course are evident throughout the music industry.
You have made a valid point about the sound of real instruments and one thing that we have not talked about is how the instrument interacts with the room. These reflections or reinforcements are also picked up by the sensitive ear and most recordings of instruments are close miked or sparsely miked in a room or studio. I know from personal experience that it takes an extremely gifted recording engineer to bring out these natural qualities. I think David Chesky is an example of one that is driven to resolving this type of information and his last CD shows this in spades. Dave plays on the CD and recorded the piece knowing what it sounded like in the recording venue. He listened to his disk at least a half a dozen times in our suite at the CES at felt that our system was the most life like at the show. Sorry for the small plug but it goes along with our conversation. He also mentioned that there were a lot of other excellent rooms that were doing other things incredibly well.
I think that a really interesting thing for you and others to watch would be the people coming and going from our suite at an audio show. The reactions are really quite amazing. Some get it immediately and fall in love hard. Others think it nice and some just don't like it...period. The reaction to the more immediate perspective is what I comment on here. I used to think that there was no accounting for taste ;-P but now realise that we all like to sit in different locations in the concert hall. So, pick your spot and go for it.
Regards,
Bobby |
Daveyf I can really relate to what you are saying there are many music enthusiasts that feel as you do. I remember well when I heard my first "hi end" system beyond what I felt was the pinnacle of reproduced sound at the time. I was swept away not because it sounded like live but it preserved much of what I hear in live music. Since that time I have come to realize that although the reproduction of music has improved, it still doesn't sound live regardless of the components used. There are many music enthusiasts that recognize this and don't even bother with hi-end systems feeling spending the money on such gear isn't worth it. All you can do is find the gear that gives you enjoyment and try to stay away from the "live" comparison. Having said that I guess what I like about the Merlins is that in many of the aspects I find important in reproduced they excel, dynamics, tonality, space between instruments and immediacy, things that remind me more of live. The imaging, soundstaging aspect which they also excel at are decidely less important to me in a real sense but a characteristic of reproduced sound that we have come to expect from our audio systems. Again it comes down to choices and priorities. Thanks Bobby for your very lucid explanation, well said!
|
You said...
Top of the line and higher price is not always better !!
I never said that. I said the 3.2 is levels above the 1.0. musically.
audio999....I have thought about it. We agree to disagree. It is okay to not like what you hear. I don't want your ears to get hot listening to Kharma's as you say.
I really like what I hear as my system gets me closer to the music. The Tenor/Kharma is a wonderful match. Closer to the music for me.
That is what it is all about, right? :^) |
|
I have heard many Kharma's (more than you thougt) from 1999 and the last one i heard was last month at 2004 CES
I heard the 3.2 with focal at least 4 times in a different set up and room. (Haven't heard the Diamond,though)
I had talked and listened with Charles in San Fransisco 2003 when he had the 3.2 in his room.
If soft dome and 3.5" mid made my ears hot,what do you want me to expect from focal and 7" mid ?
Infact,the 3.5" mids were doing better job than 7" to me in the 500Hz-up area.
Top of the line and higher price is not always better !!
Many or most people prefer the Tennor Hybrid over the OTL,but not all.
Think about it !! |
Bobby, that's a very interesting response.A while back I heard a very well respected horn manufacturer's speaker that was playing a demo of a drum set. At first listen, I was struck by how amazingly like a real drum set they sounded..Then the manufacturer played various other pieces; to everyone's dismay the speakers just totally fell apart and in fact their sound was enough to drive myself and several others out of the room.
While I am not a musician by profession, I do play several instruments and have the opportunity to play live and then listen to the reproduced. One thing that I am fairly certain you will agree with is that when one hears a live instrument it is instantly recognizable as such. The reproduced sound seems to me to be also just as recognizable;and IMHO they are light years apart. The example of the sax player is interesting, maybe it is impossible to reproduce a sax so that one knows immediately that one is hearing a 'live'sax and at the same time have any chance of reproducing say a violin or piano so that again the same would hold true.
You are right, I truly love music and I am hoping that one day my system will be a little more towards what I perceive as sounding more like a real live 'unamplified'
sound.
Perhaps one of my problems is that I have a very high expectation of what I would like to hear from a true 'high-end' system. |
I thought we were comparing the Kharma 3.2 focal or diamond which in my opinion is levels above Ceramique 1.0. Do you think the 3.2 is on par with the 1.0? Your statement says Kharma's are fatiguing. You cannot say by hearing one model they all are the same. Think about it. |
I cannot comment on the Kharma as i do not own them, but I can comment on the merlin vsm m and bobby so I will. He is a musician and I have had the opportunity to have many interactions with equipment and musicians like Bobby. (Ihave worked in professional music studios and also a few retail hifi stores.) The merlins are not perfect-what is outside of my wife-but they are close for the money. They are accurate and fair, and I only wish that some of the other speaker companies I have dealt with have guy like Bobby in charge.
There are many good products out there-the kharmas are one to be sure-but there are not many guys like Bobby out there;, honest, intelligent and dedicated to the music. We would all be more fortunate if we could have more of him, not less. |
Panorama,I wouldn't sell my Kharma C1.0 if i like it.
As i said that they are fatiguing for MY EARS,not yours or others. If you like them,i'm happy for you.
I haven't heard the Rockport TT.
The price tag for $73,500 and A+ review could be 99.99% great sound,but not 100%.
I never get upset when someone didn't like their components which were coincidently I own or love. I respect their taste.
No hard felling please !! |
Bobby brings up some intresting points in his reply. As a former musician (drummer) as well as an audiophile, I've looked to build a system with components that do more "right" than "wrong" in my search for the absolute sound. It is this fine line that the VSM M speaker walks so well IMO.
This balance between what a musician "hears" and what an audiophile "craves" for is the designer product we know as the VSM speaker. It has been and continues to be an evolution and refinement of design by Bobby. 10+ years of development that has evolved argueably into one of the finest speakers in our hobby.
The VSM has gotten me a lot closer to this thrill than many other speakers. That's why I get a bit peeved when I hear a dealer say "Most of us who have heard the Kharma's and the Merlin's would say the opposite". What BS! Opinions are opinions. We all got'em. They ain't the facts, they are just opinions formulated on multiple factors; our experiences, preferences, compromises, likes and dislikes.
I trust my ears and my experience both as a former musician and a 35+ year audiophile to make my own judjements as to what brings me closer to the absolute sound. I don't need a panel of self-appointed expert(s) to reach that or any other conclusion. |
Hi Daveyf,
Ok, here I go.
I think that you really enjoy music and your system but you feel that live unamplified music is quite superior. You then asked me if I was disappointed with my work/product as a musician.
I think that most musicians like to hear a centered presentation that allows them to hear if their instrument is in tune. It must be uniform, resolved and accurate in timbre and lack dynamic compression. I think that most music enthusiasts like a focused, wide and deep soundstage. They want the presentation to be transparent and tonally rich, extended and dynamic as hell. IMHO and what I strive for in my designs is a sense of accuracy that is a balance between the two and not loaded to either extreme. The two offer a substantial difference in perspective and image density and while I enjoy both extremes I like to hear a presentation that does as much right as possible. IMHO, having one or two incredible characteristics at the expense of others does not offer a balanced product or presentation.
I spoke to a man yesterday that rebuilds and restores saxaphones. He has a Tenor amp and two expensive and famous pairs of speakers. After the work is completed on an instrument, a recording is made and played back through his system. He felt that one of his pairs of speakers was tonally challanged and that the other compressed perspective through the mid band altering the character and dynamics of the sound. This is a perfect example of a musician having trouble with his equipment because his recording does not sound as good as the sax sounds live.
I think that are a number of designs and system combinations that can present a more live and believable presentation. I think that Daveyf may ultimately never find one that thrills him in the same manner but he can find one that gets him perhaps, a lot closer.
Am I happy with my work? Absolutely! I've been working on the VSM project for ten years.
Regards,
Bobby |
What was the original post? I have not heard either
speaker so I really can't comment. But they both must
have qualities people enjoy. Please stay on the subject
for us currently speaker shopping. Thanks |
hc, I wonder if you have the balls to say to his face what you are saying hiding behind a keyboard. You've really crossed over the line in your lame attempt at being funny. You can say what you will but you sure don't add any credibility to your position with remarks like that. |
DaveyF,
I will respond to your great question when I get into my office. I am running a little behind.
HC, Everyone is entitled to an opinion but there is no reason to turn this into a personal thing.
Regards,
Bobby@merlin |
Too bad this thread has degraded to the last post. Now its fatiguing to my eyes. Kharma fatiguing, riighhtt. That is like saying a Rockport TT is fatiguing. LOL! |
"Kharma loudspeakers are fatiguing for my ears."
Me too, Audio999, me too.
Jtinn would have your believe "the Kharma speakers are all about emotional connection and lifelike presentation." I believe they're all about false and fatiguing detail. I don't think it is any coincidence that Jtinn likes that kind of sound considering the second, third and fourth letters of his moniker. |
Kharma loudspeakers are fatiguing for my ears. |
Panorama, I actually do think my system is a joke when it comes to comparing it to live unamplified.
It doesn't make any difference what kind of live unamplified music one listens to, the differences between live and reproduced are enormous.
My point is that I personally have never heard any system that even remotely sounds like the 'Absolute sound' and therefore, I wander why so many people defend their systems/ product so vociferously. Unless of course their ulterior motive is to sell more product.(Nothing really wrong in that)
BTW Bobby, I am NOT saying that you have been slinging mud here, because I do not think you have. But surely you must be somewhat disappointed in your product as a musician( as must all speaker designers I would think). |
Daveyf do you think your system is a joke too? Because with a statement like that it makes one wonder your point. I know that Jtinn listens to a lot of live music but maybe not the kind you do. Just IMHO. :) |
Daveyf, if you look on the Merlin site it gives info about Bobby and his partner, Bill Hooper, that you may find interesting. Bobby and Bill are former professional musicians.
|
Hi Daveyf,
First of all, it would be just as bad form to extoll the magnificence of my product as it would be to knock someone elses. And to be sure, I have done neither.
You have a very good point about live and unamplified music but you can't get me here because I have a piano at home, go to countless shows and concerts and frequent homes and clubs where music is played. It is a very large part of my life and the reason for what I do.
You have in fact added another complication to the dicussion because we do not know what aspect of sound makes it more live for you. We all have buttons that can be pushed and that is what this is all about.
Bobby@merlin |
This thread has gotten very interesting. A thought occured to me however,when was the last time that Bobby or JTinn listened to live unamplified music?
I say this because having just heard a live unamplified piece,I realized that unfortunately the Kharma/Tenor combo I heard was still a joke.
So, when taken in context of the 'Absolute Sound' neither should perhaps be spouting the magnificence of their product.
Having said that the Kharma/Tenor combo is a fabulous sounding combo;but do they really deserve to be put on that high a plateau by anyone?
Something to think about, just IMHO. |
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Kharma and Tenor combination is world class. But there is also no doubt in my mind that the Merlin and Joule or Convergent combinations are also. Just because the VSM does not retail for a similar price does not make it inferior because if you turn the tables and look at the retail prices of Merlin and Kharma in Europe, the oposite is now true. Since most of my production goes to Europe, I feel confident that we are doing something right. But more important is the fact that I apply only a 3.7 time markup on my cost to retail. This is what keeps my prices down. And when you consider that almost 70% of the design is proprietery and totally hand made, it makes for a remarkable value. I will also compare my indivdual parts cost with any product on the planet...period. That in a nutshell is what I'm about.
Charles and I are excellent audio friends, have shared many a drink together and at one time joked about doing a Kharma and Merlin ad together but thought that the world was not ready for this type statement. And as we see here, our feelings were correct. We have great admiration for each others work. I am sure that if he read this string he would find it quite amusing.
Jtinn, if it makes you feel better to think that I am comparing my product to more expensive things in the hope that some of it rubs off, you couldn't be more wrong. I am not the one who is doing this. It has been done time and time again in the press and private discussion. And Mr. Morgan, forgive me but I will not do as you ask. Both designs have a very different presentation and try to convey a different perspective of what is live to its designer.
Bobby@merlin |
"It is about my personal taste and opinion and that is what my customers seem to be in agreement with."
I agree with you Jtinn and that is fine with me. I hope you'll accept the fact that during my all too brief listen to the Kharmas I found them delightful yet prefer the VSM's presentation. The Merlins have been well reviewed also. It is of little importance to me what others think of one over the other. What is most important is that folks find what suits their individual taste, needs and requirements. I am a very strong advocate against absolutism in the audio arena. Over the years I've experienced way too much hype and exaggeration and been a victim of it in my earlier years in the hobby. Let us express our opinions and preferences in the context of what we have heard and what is important to us in the presentation without black and white comments like "This is better than that" ...period!!
I can honestly say that while not perfect, the VSM is a reflection of the priorities of its designer. I just happen to agree with him in his choices not out of loyalty but of getting what he trys to convey, I just love the speakers. I also recognize the fact that others will not, no big deal. Having Bobby as a resource and also a friend is a great bonus. So far as anyone comparing a less expensive speaker to the Merlins if it suits their fancy frankly I just wouldn't care. If I were a manufacturer or dealer well...I probably would! |
Disclaimer: I am an audio dealer, and friends with jtinn.
Having been at Jonathan and his customers houses a few times I have heard the many different combinations of Kharma and Tenor. That combination is flat out world class and one of the best I have heard anywhere and at any price. It is a wondeful combination because it pairs the sound of a world class 75wpc OTL with an efficient large cabinet high resolution speaker. Bass with OTL transparency, harmonic magic, texture and warmth. Sometimes an OTL setup can sound a little thin but the bass and cabinet size of the Kharma make up for this quite well. You can't go wrong with this combination.
The Merlins are quite a good speaker too. I've always been very impressed with their sound at CES shows but as we have no local dealer I have had very limited exposure to them. |
Jtinn wrote: "Bobby makes a valid product and has a wonderful reputation. I have met him a number of times and find him to be very personable and also very caring about his craft. I understand why people would be loyal to him and his products."
Jtinn, you can rationalize the feedback you are receiving from seasoned Merlin owners however you wish. If you think I have owned my VSMs for the past 4 years just because I like Bobby then you clearly do not understand the product or why people like it. (But I'm sure your backhanded compliment is appreciated.)
If I find a speaker that does what I want better than the Merlins and they're in my price range, then I would sell them. But the fact of the matter is, I have not heard better - for my room and my tastes. Believe me, I have tried finding something better. All I end up getting is renewed appreciation for what I have.
I suspect there are numerous Kharma owners that feel the same way. And you know what? We're both right. For you to make statements about these things as though they are based in fact is a bit ridiculous. |
I trust your ears Jonathan. Enough said.
Michael |
Kevin: Trust your ears. Listen to as many speakers as you can, forget the technical spins. |
Holton: Who are you to judge me or make statements about what I like "seeing". You do not know me. You are way out of line and since we have had no personal dealings you are talking out of your "hol".
Tubegroover: Anything at any price can be compared to anything else at any other price. It really does not reflect anything when some of these unrealistic comparisons take place. I could attempt to compare a Pinto with a Ferrari, but it does not put the Pinto in the same league just because someone attempts to compare them. I am highly exagerrating the scenario to make a point.
We can compare the Kharma being a 2 way design and the Merlin being a 2 way design, but that would be about where I feel the similarities end. The Kharma is incredibly well reviewed and widely considered to be one of the best speakers in the world, at any price. It is smart for people to attempt to put their products in the same category with products that receive the recognition like the Kharma's. It creates a hope that for quite a bit less money they can recieve the same or even a greater level of performance for much less money. There are quite a few cases when this can happen, but this is not one of them.
What if we attempted to compare the Phase Technology Teatro 7.5 VDT with the Merlin VSM-M? How would you feel about that comparison? There is roughly the same difference in price as the comparison between the Merlin's and the Kharma's.
Bobby makes a valid product and has a wonderful reputation. I have met him a number of times and find him to be very personable and also very caring about his craft. I understand why people would be loyal to him and his products.
I do not think it is proper for any manufacturer to talk about anyone's product other than their own. As a dealer, some may feel the same way about my participation here, but it really is quite different. For the most part, there really is not a product that I could not carry if I really wanted it. It is about my personal taste and opinion and that is what my customers seem to be in agreement with.
I have a great deal of respect for you and enjoy your participation here on A'gon. I certainly have no intention to offend anyone.
Bobby: I like 100+ year old Armegnac and Calvados. Should we compare those items with Courvoisier? ;-) |
Jtinn,
"Different strokes for different folks I guess"! The Kharma 3.2 are fine speaker. I thought my message stated that. Trouble reading?? Emotional connection??? It's the VSM M for my money. Sorry if you don't agree with my opinion, but it is still my opinion. |
Thanks to everyone who responded to the post. All of the views have pointed me to the possibility of system synergy.
Bobby, your were one of the parties to open the door concerning this. Thanks. However, it was only partially opened as were your comments. JTinn greatly prefers the Kharma's on either amp. Bobby and JTinn,would it be possible to post the technical viewpoints for your comments. I'm ok in acknowledging the potential bias. |
You know, hc, it reveals a lot about your character that the only times (2) you have posted to this forum are to attack others. Your personal attacks are getting pretty tiresome. |
hc,
You had me fooled there...until I saw the wink.
B@merlin |
"You build a fine speaker and I am not going to get into why I greatly prefer the Kharmas, because like you, I am in the industry and have a vested interest."
You just gave one Jtinn. Your passion in your preferences is well documented as are mine and others. It really comes down to musical involvement, not better or closer to real. As an example, I own the Berning amp which in many ways seems closer to neutral than the Joule amp with the Merlins yet the Joule has a more "realistic" presentation of the harmonics of instruments, timbre accuracy is another way of putting it. Which one is right? My answer is there is no right, just priorities and preferences so why all the fuss? Maybe the fact that a 10K speaker can be compared to one at 22K in a favorable context? On an absolute level it gets back to preference of how recorded music is presented and the involvement factor, nothing more or less. I think we are talking about 2 superb 2-way speakers that offer different priorities. I have never looked at the Merlin as somehow being compromised because of their price but of offering an extraordinary value in light of it. Why do you seemingly qualify many of your remarks with "at the price". It isn't the first time I've seen you do it. It seems to me some sort of validation or justification for the prices of the components you sell. No offense meant but it is irksome to me. |
Burgundy? Bordeaux? Bobby you are far too charitable. Jtinn just likes seeing his customers pay Burgundy prices for the Ripple he stocks.
Mmmm, Ripple ;-) |
Ah come on Jtinn,
I can say exactly the same thing.
I had two individuals come into our suite at the CES who were big Kharma fans. In fact, both owned the 3.2s and were still in love with the size of their soundstage and other aspects of their Kharma sound. But both felt that the VSM MX had a more immediate character, sounded more live and less dynamically compressed. They have a totally different presentation. Do you like Burgundy or Bordeaux? I'll bet...Burgundy. ;-)
Bobby@merlin |
No Jtinn,
That is what you are saying because the Tennor sounds wonderful on the Merlins. I just prefer the Joules for very specific reasons, which I will not go into here. But think about my choices in cable and ancillaries and you can piece a bit of it together for yourself. You see, I have heard the combinations myself and I know that you would be in for a an even bigger surprize if you looked at it in an open minded manner. It is clear that we prefer different aspects of the presentation. And because these speakers sound very different as do the amps, it is impossible to say which is the better. Anyone who knows me well knows that I routinely recommended the Kharma, Rockport, Vertity, Quad, Sound Labs etc., products when calling my business. I have also recommended the the Kharma/Tenor combination to a few. Lets face it, whats good is good and I don't mind losing a sale to well designed products.
Bobby@merlin |
Joneill: Your response truly surprises me. Most of us who have heard the Kharma's and the Merlin's would say the opposite. Not to take anything away from the Merlin's which are a nice value at their price point, the Kharma speakers are all about emotional connection and lifelike presentation.
Are you sure you heard the Kharma speakers in question? |
