Hello everyone, I'm at the Mcintosh house and so maybe part of the answers will be taken for granted, thanks to the desire to try new devices I'm evaluating a transition from my current Final Pass Xa 30.5 to a MC452. Even the pre should be replaced by switching from an Xp10 Pass to the Mcintosh C48. I use the Totem Mani 2, Audio Physic Scorpio 2 and Tannoy Eaton speakers in a listening environment of around 20 sqm at low and medium volumes. I would like some advice from those who have had the opportunity to try, comparing these brands and the good interface between the coupled MC 48 and 452 and my speakers. Thank you.
I do think Mcintosh and pass lab com out the different sound, they are so different, and someone prefer this one while others prefer that one. There is no right or wrong. I bought Mcintosh Amp brand new and used for about 7-8 years and go to Audio Research near 30 years ago. I have clear memory about the Mcintosh and maybe later, I will buy one as second system, THE MAIN POINT IS
I FIND RELEASE IN THE SOUND.
The following is coming from chatGPT and I agree.
Comparing the sound quality of amplifiers, such as those from McIntosh and Pass Labs, is subjective and can depend on personal preferences, the rest of your audio system, and the type of music you enjoy. Both McIntosh and Pass Labs are reputable manufacturers known for producing high-quality audio equipment, but they may have different sonic characteristics.
McIntosh is often recognized for its warm and lush sound signature, with a distinctive visual style and a long heritage in the audio industry. McIntosh amplifiers typically provide a smooth and musical listening experience.
Pass Labs, on the other hand, is known for its focus on transparency, accuracy, and detailed sound reproduction. Pass Labs amplifiers are often praised for their clean and precise audio delivery, making them appealing to audiophiles who prioritize accuracy.
Ultimately, the "better" sound is a matter of personal taste. Some people prefer the characteristic sound of McIntosh, while others may lean towards the precision and transparency of Pass Labs. It's recommended to audition both brands if possible, preferably with your own audio source and speakers, to determine which one aligns better with your preferences and complements the rest of your audio system.
I have a modest pass syetem and have owned older mcintosh. Maybe not a comparison but I find the Pass Adelph 3 and Pass L pre very addictive. Sound just seems to hang in a very holographic way.
There are great sounding and well built MacIntosh products and great sounding well built Pass products. Most of the time their owners are great people too. A lot of people own both. But so much of the time these threads end up more about ego and feeling superior vs facts. Too bad. We have so much to learn from each other.
Ive owned a Pass int-250, mc9000 and a luxman... The pass was the best when it came to overall sound. I liked the Ma9000 next and the Luxman 509x was crap. Sounded like cheap Yamaha gear to me. I hate the way Pass gear looks (great build but just stupid looking). That being said I always find myself going back to Mcintosh. I LOVE the way they look, and I also love what they do with the human voice. I listen to allot of music but I also listen to a ton of talk radio and how an amp renders voices is SUPER important to me. Currently running a Schiit Frey + (spectacular preamp) with a Mcintosh mc452 into a set of JBL 4365's. And I love it.
I auditioned them both many times. I did own different XA monos in the past. When I audition the Mcintosh with my own music I always miss depth and width regarding the stage. The diversity in sound with the Pass is a lot better. It reveals also moere layers in the middle frequencies.
You never will see a show where people can hear them both wiht the same amps, sources and cables? This is how silly audio is. At the end it is all about shootout. Most are only interested in their own stuff and will not allow you to compare them.
It would be so much better if they become a lot more open and honest to audio lovers. I wrote it many times when they want to they can imply parameters. But they will not do this. They want audio to staf as fague as possible. So people have no idea about sound and music. It becomes a lot more easy to sell what they want.
They don’t care about the truth and best quality. They only focus on how much money they can make. When they want to give the audio busienss a boast they need to stop with all those lies. And create better products for customers.
I'm also interested in some first hand experience of the MC452/MC152 vs. XA series. Seems like so far it's just conflicting hyperbole of them both taking turns blowing each other out of the water. Can someone describe what the difference is that's making one better than the other? What is the key difference between the Mac and Pass house sound?
One of the things mentioned is that the Mac is slow, but from everything I've read, the MC452/MC152 generation is the fastest of the Macs...
When I talk to people about audio they often talk about emotion. So I ask them a simple question. How does the human emotion works regarding music?
And they say; I have no idea. You were talking about emotion but you can not tell me why and how it effects our emotion? And again they say; No I can’t
You cannot use words and assumptions when in real you have no idea what it means and how it works.
When you want to understand things you need to learn how it works and this comes not by it self. You need to take time to find the right information about it. The internet can give you when you want to all this information.
Sound contains of different properties. This has nothing to do with personsal taste. We are talking about facts. There is enough information about music and about sound.
In over 20 years of time I did spend a lot of time in reading about many different aspects of both sound&music. As I phoned and talked a lot with different specialists in different parts regarding audio. And I did many tests to learn how it works.
Most people who have audio as a hobby or they work in this world as I do believe that they have a lot of knowledge about audio. But when I talk to them they cannot answer almost all the simple questions about audio. Beside this they agreed that most things they say are based on information they got from distributers. Most are just assumptions. And can easily be proven by sound that they are not even true.
Most people who love audio and who work in audio are running on very thin ice. Based on the fact that even the most simple things they don’t understand.
When you want to understand and guide audio you need to understand a lot before you can manage and guide it. I wrote it many times overhere and I will say it again.
When you all are listening to your system at home you are listening to all the different properties of each single part in your system, the acoustsic and other parts like smog, magnetism and high frequent noise who negatively influence the sound and stage.
This has nothing to do with a personal taste. We have a personal taste in music. But voices and instruments are build on different properties. Again we are talking about facts. You need all the different properties of sound to be able to hear the song of the recording the way it sounded when they recorded it.
When you just focus on brands and products it is very easy to proof and show that most brands and products cannot reveal all the different properties of sound. When you let people hear with their own music a system what can reveal all the aspects of sound we see how simple it is for them to understand why this is so much more attractive and emotional to listen at.
This has nothing to do with personal taste. All different properties of sound van influence our emotion. When we let people listen to a Tru-Fi system they agree all that it is a lot more exciting and emotional then their own system.
This can be founded on facts. Because the sytem can reveal all the details and different properties of sound. This has nothing to do with personal tatse as most of you believe. I believed it as well untill januari 2016. Untill a client said; you have proven and thought me that personal taste in sound does not excist. It took him over 1 hour to persuade me.
Based on assumption I thought that I was 100% sure that audio is based on a personal taste. But the music it self is what it is. And the emotion tou can experience is founded on all the different properties it owns.
Humans can experience sound and music in a 3D spectrum. But the most audio brands and products are only able to create a 2D stage. Agaain we are talking about facts. The sound and stage proofs what you hear and how it is being projected into a room.
My clients all understand how big the diffences are between 2D audio and 3D audio. Because they all came from 2D audio, as I came form 2D audiuo as well. When you hear live music and after time you learn what 3D sound is and how it works. This is what you want. Because it makes the experience of music so much more intense and emotional.
It is not natural and it even does not make sense when audio is displayed in a 2D stage, based on the fact that we humans can experience it in a 3D stage. When we let people experience their music between a 2D and 3D system we see that they all react the same way.
Again this can be explained. Due to the fact on how our hearing and emotion works regarding music and audio. Even this has nothing to do with personal taste because this can be explained on facts and how our emotion works.
People become very personal when they read things they do not like. I understand that, but you cannot runaway from facts and things which can be explained. When you want to get to a higher level in audio sometimes tou need to learn to do things differently. When you are not open for this, you will stay where you are right now.
At the end each human being prefers a more natural and emotional sound and stage. This is what we create and how we do both sound&vision. Maybe you hear things you do not like, just be a man and take a listen. After that you can judge yourself.
We want to use conservatorium students because live music did learn me a lot about music and sound. And that is why I want to use it so other people can experience the same as I did in the past. So they will understand it as well.
@hugh_jahol; only by using these words proofs how weak you are. You just need to focus on the thread. You have the freedom to give your own opinion about this thread.
Stop making it personal, just wrote your thoughts and ideas about this issue. It is that simple
People don't like to read negative information about products they own. So it becomes personal. As you always can read in their reactions.
People need to learn to look further. At the end the sound and stage you hear will tell the truth. People prefer to hear the things they would like to hear. They even prefer it than hearing the truth.
We let people hear their music by Tru-Fi, so they can decide what they think of it. People will always choose and want that sound and stage what they prefer. That is the simplicity of audio what I love most.
On each recording you will find the details and all the different properties of sound. So you need a system what can reveal this. There is not even any discussion possible about this. But when you focus and listen to most audio products the truth proofs that they are incomplete. We are talking about facts and this has nothing to do with personal taste.
When I ask people how the human emotion works regarding music and audio they have no idea. This proofs again that they have no idea what they are doing making their choices. The great thing about the internet is that you can find and read many articles about the human emotion.
I can garantee you that this will make you understand music and audio a lot better than you know now.
Real instruments played by people can proof that horns create both sound and the size of instruments a lot different than in reality. Comparing and using real music is the best way to make people understand how instruments sounds in real compared to audio brands and products.
I know many people who work in audio who have the same opinion as I have regarding horns. We will use people from the conservatorium to show people how instruments sounds in real. And we will show them how an audiosystem sound what can reveal all the different propertis of sound.
Audio is all about music and how it sounds in real. So this is the best way to show people how things sound in real.
As opinionated as bo1972 is, with as many posts as he has, there is no mention on his "home page " as to the components he uses to create this " "TRU FI ", as he says. Besides, anyone who bashes horns, and says they are not lifelike, is a totally BS kind of person. I also read past his posts. If bo1972 would like to comment on my post, it would mean NOTHING to me, as his opinions mean nothing to me. I have been at this for over 50 years, and I go where my ears take me. Enjoy ! MrD.
When you want to experience music at the highest level possible you need a system what can reveal all the details and properties of the recording. This has nothing to do with personal taste. We are talking about facts.
The Luxman cannot create a very deep stage, becaus the stage dna is 2D. You cannot change this part, not even by modification. The second limitation on facts is that it cannot create diversity in height. Even this is a property of sound.
We have proven in the last months to many different people that Tru-Fi outperforms any trial and error system owned by new clients. We ask them to take their own music with them.
We let them hear their music with a Tru-Fi system. And they all agreed that it is superior to their own system. And they all agree that the level in emotion and realims is of a different world. Most of them said that they never auditioned this level in emotion and realism.
When we install an audiosystem. We bring in for over 7000 dollar in hightech measurement tools. Most companies only bring in a few cheep tools. Trial and error is a very low level in creating any audiosystem . And we can proof on facts over and over again that it is inferior based on facts compared to any Tru-Fi system.
Because the facts proof that they miss essential parts of sound. And we proof that the level in emotion and realism is inferior to our Tru-Fi systems. Each single human being will always choose for each audiosystem what can reveal all the different properties of sound. Due to the fact that all different properties of sound can influence the human emotion.
That is why each audiosystem what can reveal all the details and properties of sound will be chosen by each individualk person. We have proven this in the last months many times.
The thing I love most rergarding audio is that the most convincing and emotional sound will be chosen bij each individualk person. Based on the fact that our emotin works the same way. The only thing that is personal is our taste in music.
But......sound contains of different properties. And you need them all to feel the emotion that the music possesses. The beiggest propblem in audio is that over 99% of all audioproducts are incomplete on facts. This means that they cannot reveal all the different properties of sound.
And what is missing will never be there. Each audiosystem what is incomplete will create a lower level in emotion and intensity for each human being. And we can proof this on facts what we have done many many times.
Efficiency and impedance loading are two different measurement parameters in a speaker, end of story, your the one with the BS, with the inability to distinguish between the two, to mate amps up with.
For those that are interested: An inefficient speaker like these Totems with low (80db) and fairly easy impedance load, can still be driven by a mediocre amp with less than average current drive, so long as it has high enough wattage for that inefficiency, to be played loud.
But if that same speaker also had a nasty impedance load as well, then it still needs an amp with the wattage to go loud, but would also need that amp to have good current drive as well to handle the nasty impedance load as well to stay linear in frequency response at those low impedance dips. If not it would sound like a tone control at those impedance dips.
@missioncoonery not doubting you. I haven’t had any issues with any of the 3 McIntosh units I have, but if I do I will let my dealer handle it. Hopefully I won’t get yanked. ARC has really good customer service too, and you’re probably going to need it because it will blow up expensively
“On these fairly easy to drive speakers, both will work fine...”
Totem Mani2 speakers are actually not an easy load
I beg to differ, you quoted me. They are an easy load for an amp, just not efficient so you need watts.
Not looking for an argument but whatever wording you want to choose your advice was not appropriate.
But you are, then don't quote me and then try to "cover" your inability to distinguish "bad load for a speaker" with "inefficiency of a speaker". A speaker with bad load impedance for an amp, with one that's just "inefficient", which in this case the Mani2's are, just inefficient and NOT a difficult impedance "load" for an amp.
The 30watt Pass to me will sound the best to a given volume level, but the 450w Mac will go louder. This volume level has nothing to do with the "load" the speakers presents, but the "efficiency", to which will give the higher volume level. As far as me saying the Pass will sound better to a given volume, that's because it's a Pass, and the Mac? well is a Mac, (a solid state with output transformers?????) bizarre!
tlong1958..No I bought a MC402 back when it was the latest offering..Pretty sure it was 4500 ,maybe 5500,I don't remember what it was but I paid retail plus about $150 to ship it UPS...the 452 I bought much later used and dirt cheap only to flip for profit, which I did.I would never have Mac in my system after the 402 disaster.So I battled the factory and the dealer at that time and the only thing I was promised was from the dealer that if I ever had a problem contact them.I did wait long enough and sold that amp..but my story is true.
“They are an easy load, they are just not efficient 80.7db, which means they need watts rather current when played loud.”
Not looking for an argument but whatever wording you want to choose your advice was not appropriate. I know those speakers and 30wpc, class A or otherwise, will not be a good match to get the best sound out of them, even in a moderate size room. They’ll sound okay but nowhere near what they’re capable of.
So you bought a brand new 452 for $4500. And the dealer shipped it to you, which is goes against McIntosh policy/dealer agreement. I would question the dealer as to why they shipped the unit when they know this isn’t allowed. And you bought the amp for about 50% off retail. Sure it was new? i have owned many Pass amps. I agree that they are an awesome company with excellent customer support
Let me address my customer service experience quickly.I had an issue with a new Pass amp.Nelson called me personally,worked on my amp personally,took it home and listened to it an entire weekend before sending it back..McIntosh refused my warranty card when I sent it in because even though i had no dealer within 100s of miles,I purchased from an authorized dealer an amp over the phone and had it shipped.Mcintosh will not recognize warranty unless you go directly to the store.On the phone they are the worst company i have ever dealt with.Rude is being generous. One would think after dropping $4500 you would get some type respect from a service rep.I would rather go without a stereo before ever buying anything from McIntosh....having said that Mcintosh imo is slow,colored,bass tubby in comparision to Pass. Mcintosh is like taling a knife to a gun fight
one thing about pass that makes it a pleasure to own is their phenomenal customer service. i own a mac c2300 pre and the pass x250.5. So i call both companies every once in a while. Pass treats me like a prospective customer every single time. Mac guys do answer the question - but they do come across as being rushed. Nothing wrong - just pointing. So one might ask "so what".
I bought my x250.5 fearing that the x30.5 or 60.5 wouldnt be able to drive my speaker. the 250.5 was so revealing with layers - that i was happy listening at twice lower listening level compared to before. I can totally see what bo1972 says about layering. Essentially since my listening volume has come down - i am always operating in class A. i never thought i'd be happy with 15W (thats when the 250.5 leaves class A).
btw - i totally love the c2300 - especially the phono stage. it comes alive with a pair of teles. I have listened to the 402 and the 452 and they tend to fill the room with warmth and there was a time when i liked it. For now - i guess i am happier with the pass - until the next stop!
My finial thought on this Pass labs vs McIntosh debate.Pass Labs has a transferrable warranty ,McIntosh does not,none.So if you buy a 2 year old Pass amp used you have 1 year of warranty on it.You buy a 2 week old used Mac amp you have squat warranty.Big deal to me.Also if you buy Mac gear new from authorized dealer over the phone and have it shipped ,you have zero warranty,it happened to me.
My last post was deleted, it’s ok I understand why.
To make it a short story, I own a Luxman M900u and the pre I use is a McIntosh C52. I did the preamplifier acid test. I compared the DAC direct to amplifier VS DAC to C52 to amp. to see if I was loosing on resolution and harmonic layering.
The answer, the C52 is transparent as clear water. I was astonished, I did not feel the need to buy the C900u from Luxman, as I was earing every sonic nuances with Mac...
As usual the preamplifier eliminates the thinness of dac direct to amp, elevates dynamics , creates a bigger soundstage, we all know that this is a fact when the dac output stage has not enough voltage to drive the amplifier.
Now about PassLabs , very good gear, but sorry the Luxman M900u has craftsmanship never seen in any Pass gear. Like comparing a Corvette ZR1 to a Bentley...
His posts are unreadable in my opinion. If I’m reading a thread and I see he has posted I just scroll past him. He just keeps repeating himself over and over. Hey Bo, you need to come up with some new material.
When people judge on products others own, we always see that it becomes personal. I talked a lot in the last few months with manufacturers and other people who also work in audio for a long time.
I said; audio needs parameters to make it more clear to people. And many agreed. Now people can say whatever they want to say. There is no control and there are no rules.
Many brands like to use the word higend. You need to understand what sound is and how music is being formed. That is why you need to understand what al the different properties are of sound.
Together they create how we experience music. For us it is very easy to show the difference between 2D and 3D audio. Like we compare audio systems with a low level in diversity to a system what can reveal a high level in diversity.
Only this way people can understand what the different properties of sound can do. And even how they react on our emotion. All different properties of sound can influence our emotion.
You can find a lot of great articles about the human emotion. Also there are enough articles how music works regrading our emotion. It will make you more understand how it really works.
I have done thousands of tests in audio in almost 20 years of time. We still do a lot of tests in audio. When we go to a client for an audio system. We take with us over 6000 euro on high tech measurements.
When we do vision again we take over 6000 euro in high tech calibration stuff. The great thing about the time we are living now, is that there are great tools to create a level what was not even possible 10 years ago.
When you do both sound&vision by their own properties it will bring you to a level you never experienced before. Most audio systems are incomplete on facts, This means that by shootout it is very easy to let people hear which properties are missing.
Each audio system what reveals less properties of sound will always create a lower level in emotion.
I sold Luxman in th past. It is a 2D amp on facts. Based on the fact that it can build almost no stage depth. We are not talking about a personal taste. But a fact what can easily be proven by audio.
When you are saying here on Audiogon that Luxman is better than Pass you make a big born fool of yourself. Luxman has an inferior level of diversity in sound. This again has nothing to do with personal taste.
But again can be proven by shootout. Maybe Audiogon is for amatures. But when I read this kind of nonsense, it need to be said.
Many people make the mistake that a pleasant and warm sound is the same as diversity in sound. But it is not. Layering in sound means you can hear all the different harmonics in sound.
We have proven many times to clients that what they thought was a divers sound proved to be a pleasant sound. When we did a shootout, they had to agree that the Tru-Fi system was superior in layering in sound.
The question is: what is the truth? The thing I love most in audio is that what you hear will always tell the truth. So people can hear it themselves so there is no dicussion anymore.
We humans will always choose for the sound and stage what creates the highest level in emotion and intensity. The emotion only can be found on the recording. An audio system cannot create emotion by it self.
But you need an audio system what is able to reveal all the details and layers of the recording. This is why when you create sound just by the properties it owns, it will always create a superior level in emotion and intensity.
We can proof it over and over again. Soon we will start with professional videos with Sony professional. I will film how people react on their trial and error system. And how they react on a Tru-Fi system.
I see you use horn loudspeakers. I can garantee you when you would listen a lot to live music in small settings you would never buy horn loudspeakers. Based on the fact that it builds the stage a lot different than voices and instruments do in real.
A horn loudspeaker also owns his particular sound. Often people use warm sounding amps and tubes to colorize the sound of the loudspeaker.
You want an audio system sound as realistsic as possible. Like you want to create the same intimate stage and focus of voices and instruments.
When you would listen to live music regarding both voices and instruments they are very small and direct. But when you listen to most horn loudspeakers often they are projected out of proportion. The peopel who make these mistakes have no idea hwo big they are in real.
I often asked them on shows why the instruments and voices are that big? And I asled them also often do you know how big voices and instrumentd are in real?
Often the have no idea. Most audio systems are all based on pure gambling. When people think this is the best way to create an audio system, I think they have no idea what they are doing!
@d2girls Your reactions here on Audiogon proof you want to say something to peoole you don't agree with.
When you create your system by trial and error you will never understand why the stage and souns is what you hear. You do it all pure on gambling. It proofs that you do it at the elvel of a child, Based on the fact thta there is no foundation.
So tell us what your foundation is to create your audio system. And what is your reference you found your decisions on?
We can proof it by facts. That is what we do. It is very easy to explain. We have many many clients in my whole country with Tru-Fi systems.
When a client is looking for something in a particular price range we send them to client who own stuff in the price range they are looking for.
So we advice tgem always to bring in their own music they know well. So they can listen to a Tru-Fi system with their own music. The results are always the same.
They are often amazed how big the differences are in emotion and intensity. They understand that it is superior to what they own and what they auditoned in other shops.
Audio is shootout and comparing. We work totaaly different. We spend so much more time in both sound&vision. I am addicted to it since I was a child. I spend over 200 dollars on new music each month. We love to visit live concerts as well.
Tru-Fi brings people so much closer to the truth and how music sounds and is being displayed in space.
We create many new upgrades for our clients all the time. They can take a listen to many tools and modifications in their own system before they buy it.
It is always our goal to create a superior upgrade for a price no other company can give. I have many clients who in the past where doing audio by trial and error.
Many often got tired because they were not able to get the sound they were hoping for to find. Most of them use their system each single day.
It is our focus to create a stunning level in sound and music for each single person. That is why we did research in many diefferent price levels. I want other people to have the same experience as my clients have.
So they can experience the real emotion their music possesses. I want people to learn something. That is why I want to use conservatorium students so people can learn and understand how sound and music works.
hahahahahahaha......I have done thousands of tests. And I do audio full time for almost 20 years of time. We live in a different world. We are so much further in details and results.
There is a group of people who prefer to hear the things they would like to hear. They do not like to hear the truth.
Actually, the second poster (me) said that they were both good, but I preferred the McIntosh. Nothing blew anything out of the water. Liked both of them.
On these fairly easy to drive speakers, both will work fine, but my money’s on the Pass for a better sound at "normal. And on harder to drive speakers the Pass all the way every day. But if you really want to get loud with these speakers they are are only 80db efficiency which means you want watts and that’s where the 450w Mac will beat out the 60w @ 4ohm Pass, in being able to go louder, but not necessarily better sounding. https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Mani2fig1.jpg
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