The McIntoshes take a very long time to break in. There are a lot of windings in there! You may never get to hear what it is really like since you'll only have it a few days. The treble will loosen up with some more time, so I am told.
It is true that the McIntosh amps can sound a tad bit slow. I don't think they are per se, but their weighty bass comes at a price. Everything is always a compromise. But with the right source, it is perfect. It boils down to system synergy. Even changing cables can make a real difference in pace and timing.
Glad to hear you are enjoying it so much. I have heard it in several systems now and feel it is one of the finest amplifiers around.
Arthur |
IMHO go with the MC-402. I currently own one. I am driving a pair of Duntech Sovereigns that I have owned for 20 years. I still think it can compete with speakers that cost many times more. I have driven the Duntech's with a Krell FBP 200, which to my ear not nearly as musical soundng as the Mac. I have also had an Edge M8M, Spectral DMA 200, NRG amp, Luminous Audio KST=150. Of all the amps that I have owned, the MAC is the most satisfying musically speaking of all the bunch. I used to have a lot of the old Mac tube amps and I got away from them. I guess I listened to too many people that sneered when you mention MAC. Don't you believe it. I really think the current generation of MAC gear can hold it's own with anything out there. You should try it before you jump on the Krell bandwagon. Just my opinion FWIW. I've only had 45 years experience as an audiophile, so what do I know? |
Just a thought - can you try single-ended input vs balanced. This is not from my own experience, but I have heard of others who comment on differences/improvements for some reason [going single-ended of all things!?]. |
I think in the long run I would be very happy with the MAC, especially since I would be getting a killer deal. But I would always wonder what the Krell would have sounded like in my system. Welcome to the never ending "tail chasing" of audio! Brian |
Thanks guys...Actually my current Krell is a Class A/B circuit..They don't give you Class A until you get into their Full Power Balanced line-up. And yes, Class A is part of what makes these amps very inefficient and A/B more efficient.
I think I figured out what it is that I am missing with the MAC as opposed to anything in the Krell line-speed. The MAC amp is sort of slow, which is what I think contributes to it being somewhat less uninvolving than the Krell. When and amp is slow, you lose a little of the rhythm of the music, and in turn some of the emotion. Anyone have any thoughts on that guess?
I think in the long run I would be very happy with the MAC, especially since I would be getting a killer deal. But I would always wonder what the Krell would have sounded like in my system. Darnit! this is a tough call. |
Jc51373, that's the way I felt when I listened to MC402, that it sounded nice but was not really involving in absolute terms.
You are expecting the Krell to show the weakness of which component in your system?
Keep in mind that MC402 provides equal amounts of power into 8, 4 and 2 ohm loads - 400w/ch. But MC402 doesn't really get hot....it runs cool.
Krell doubles the power into 4 and doubles again into 2 ohms. This would be an advantage with the B&Ws. Disadvantages with the big Krell - it's heavy, gets hot and draws a lot of power. You'll most likely need an amp stand. |
I think that the move from your present class A amp to the Class A/B amp would be akin to someone moving from tubes to SS . There are plenty of threads here about people looking for a SS amp that sounds like tubes .
Good luck and keep us posted . |
Soooo true Brian, well said. I find auditioning equipment is well worth the effort, for more reasons than just finding out if the piece you are auditioning is for you. You learn about sonic differences for one thing, and what they are, so then you can understand what the heck people here are talking about when they describe 150 pound piece of metal and lead as "emotional". : )
Tonight is the true test for me to see if this is the right amp. I think alot of what I like about it at first is the power delivery, there is obviously better control over the drivers since it is 400watts.
But here is a point that I made earlier regarding the class a/b delivery of the MAC and Class A, which would validate why the Krell might show weakness in a system. Since the Krell is Class A it would make sense that it would show weakness in a given system, although I personally think my Preamp is first rate. A Class A circuit can be described as a piece of wire with gain, the output is basically an exact (100%) replica of the input, just larger. So, 100% of the input signal is used, whereas in an A/B circuit there is a range of usage, more than 50% but less than 100%. This has to be why we might hear tonal differences in the two types of circuits.
Splitting hairs of course...But good to be aware of in a process of auditioning in my opinion. |
System matching is very important so you either have to hear the pieces in your system or in a system the same as yours. Bringing the amp home is obviously the safest bet, the results others have with it with different gear may not be duplicated in your system. As Arthur stated, you are ahead of the game because you know what you like. Not only will you garner thoughts of the Mac while using it, you will learn more after you switch back to your own amp for a couple days. |
I am in MA, and there are one or (worthy) dealers up here. I have checked with just about everyone on MA, CT and no one has anything. There a couple of FPB 400cx on AG, but wouldn't be able to listen. Dealers also don't probably have any in stock since these aren't made anymore either. So I would have to find a demo, or a customer trade. So far, nothing on that front.
So after a night of listening to this amp (MC 402) I am very impressed. Although, the more I listen and discover positive, the more I learn about the negative. For me there is something just a tad bit sterile (for lack of a better word) about this amp. I don't feel as involved as with my Krell. Further listening will clarify that for me, but I am wondering if that has to width of the soundstage or depth, not sure. Will listen more. : ) |
Where are you located? There's got to be someone with a Krell FPB around. Preferably one bigger than the 300CX.
Like I said above, I never thought the MC-352 was lacking in the bass department and expect no less from the 402. Furthermore, my speakers at that time demanded a ton of current to really get up and go. Both the Mac and Krell fulfill this need in spades. With many speakers, its all about current [amps] not power [watts].
Regarding the whole class A and class A/B issue, all that matters is how the sound reaches your ears. Who care about the circuit design [tongue-in-cheek]? I think a direct comparison is absolutely fair...it's your money and your system after all! |
Also, one other point to be made between these two amps...The MAC is a Class a/b circuit and the Krell FPB is a Class A. So quite honestly, the comparison may not be completely fair in that respect. |
I am still very much interested in hearing an FPB series Krell. Just not many around is the problem. |
keep the amp powered up. No surprise this one is better than Krell KAV.
FPB series is a different matter though and would be an interesting comparison with the MC402. |
A friend of mine has an FPB 200 and it is one of the best amps I have heard. It is so musical and smooth. Just has a non-fatiguing dynamic sound. I have heard a MC602 and while it is a great amp, it did not sound as musical as the Krell IMO. |
Mac better in every way in my system over the Krell so far. I am picking up more detail in my music, much more. Very nice sound stage, a little wider, and deeper, but much quieter, or darker if you will. Bass is taut (sp?) and punchy, appropriately so, no overly punchy, no boomy at all, balanced.
Voicing and mid range is very noticable. If I were going to label this amp with one strong point it would be in the mid range, very voicy and pronounced-which I prefer. Some may not though. The highs are nice, although a little more tsss, tsss, tsss than I am used to. I like it, just wonder if it can become fatiguing over time.
Here is a small issue for me...Lets say I do decide to go for this amp..It does not fit on my current salamader amp stand under my pre! Thing is a beast.
Obviously I have to live with this amp for a few days more, which they are allowing me. Wife is going away tomorrow, so I will really spend some time tomorrow night as well. By the way, she hates the needles and blue lights etc. No surprise there. |
First impressions...Not much time to post, sorry..Will catch up later.
Surprising Bass, exactly what I like. Much better than my current krell amp actually.
Mids are smooth and velvety.
Highs are detailed and airy.
I like this amp so far. More to come.... |
I had an MC-352 before going to a FBP-300C. The MC-352 was the predecessor to the MC-402, and the FPB-300C was the predecessor to the FPB-400CX, so it is bigger than the 300CX that you have.
I loved the 352, and it had loads of bass with my Legacy Focus 20/20s. The Krell too has tons of bass, but it seems a bit tighter to me. The Krell added a lot of detail without loosing the music IMHO - contrary to many Krell "haters" around here. With the Mac, I found myself listening mostly to small Jazz groups, but with the Krell, I found myself listening to all kinds of music, not just small groups. It isnt nearly as soft sounding, but then I wouldnt call my Krell hard either.
One nice thing that I noticed about the Mac though, it took little or no time to warm-up. The Krell is a different story. It takes at least 1/2 to really come around for me.
Either one is quite nice, but my preference is with the Krell. Since you have the Mac for demo, you are doing the right thing. Perception is reality here, and only you know what youll like. Be aware though, the Krell needs to be warmed up by playing music through it
just being turned on isnt enough from my experience.
Best of luck! |
Hey, there you go! Testing the amp out in your system is the only way to get a clear answer. Bear in mind that at this level, there aren't any bad amps - it is just that some will work better or worse with your system and tastes.
Sounds like you know what you like. That is good - many people rely on others' opinions to make their decisions. It is true that my JM Labs have more rounded bass than the 804s but they also have more of it and subjectively deeper too. It is the difference between convex bass drivers like the 804s' and concave ones like the 926s'. It also has to do with the surround design. The larger excursion drivers with the wide and round surrounds will always have more bass (though sometimes less tight) than those with small or pleated surrounds. I have noticed this several times. The latter types have a hard time getting the bass out into the room - this is the part I don't like about my 804s. The 926s on the other hand, have bass that comes out at you and kicks you in the chest with the right amp. That is my preference. Other speakers with tight bass like B&Ws (in my experience) are ProAcs, Monitor Audios and Triangles. You might want to look into the new 804S. It has a very similar style to the N804 but with a bigger sound and smoother top end. There are great chances you would really love this new version.
Keep us posted on your experience with the MC402. Be careful not to make snap judgements based on first impressions - it will be a very different type of sound than what you are used to.
Arthur |
If you want something better than 300cx go with a bigger Krell, either 700cx or older 600C or 350Mc monoblocks. Anything else will be different at best.
I would suggest staying with 300cx and trying a different preamp. KAV is ok but clearly a budget product. Simaudio P-5, Bryston BP26 or Pass X1 are much better and can be found for around 2-2.5k.
I have owned three FPBs and they really show shortcomings of associated gear. Once the rest is up to snuff your Krell will surprise you. |
I have an MC402 in my trunk to listen to at home, so I will let you know what I think. My local dealer is very close to my work, so I figured what the heck. Now I can really have a basis to compare and judge the MAC sound vs. the Krell KAV sound. |
Take a look at Pass Labs amps. I run X250.5 with N803. Can't complain. |
Thanks Arthur, good suggestion. Its not so much that I want so much bass, as it is the type I guess, like you mentioned, 2d and 3d. Good points. I have been listening to alot of gear lately, really good stuff and I just haven't heard anything that produces the type of bass I am used to. I love my speakers though, and I have heard them on all solid state, and they deliver enough bass for me. I think like you said, it is the style I am looking for.
Quite honestly, I do alot more jazz and easy listening than I did when I first got into hi-fi, so bass is not as important as it once was. But I like to know the kind I prefer to hear is there when I spend this kind $$. I also don't mean to completely ignore the other sonic advantages that come in the amps are we are discussing, but Bass can sometimes be where the concern is with some amps, and Krell always seems to deliver in that area.
I guess the question remains are there others out there that compete with the Krell sound? Plinius maybe?? |
I also agree with Arthur about speakers. N804 by nature don't go low in the bass. Krell will definitely help to bring out some bass impact, but ultimately, if you like B&Ws, you should go hear the 803D. IMO these speakers are a big improvement over the previos series. They have detail, are smooth sounding and with bass performance that is on par with the 802s. But since you are going with Krell, it'll drive most any speaker you will get in the future. |
Since you seem very concerned with bass, you should stick with the Krell. However, if you really want awesome bass, the 804s are not a very good choice to begin with. I have a pair right now and they can't hold a candle to my 926s in bass performance. You would get a bigger bass improvement by changing speakers than by changing amps IMO. Not to mention it could cost you a lot less money too.
The 402 does have rounded bass which I interpret as a 3D sound rather than 2D slam but everyone sees it a bit differently. From what you've said, I think you will be happier with another Krell.
Arthur |
Thanks Audphile1....Thats what I think too. It's funny, I read around the forums here and elsewhere, and I can't believe how many Krell haters there are out there. The stuff sounds awesome, and one of the few I have listened to or owned that balances the full spectrum properly. Alot, and I mean alot, of very good products out there roll off on the bass. I am not a bass head, but it makes no sense to me to own something not capable of producing a tight punchy bass note. Bass is obviously interpreted differently among manufacturers I guess.
Would love to hear from more people with experience with this amp. thx! |
It sounds like bass is your main priority. In that case, stick with Krell. |
I would choose the Krell.
I heard the MC402 with B&W 803S and it was pretty good, but nothing I would buy though. If you want speed, detail and bass slam, then go for Krell.
Since you're using tubed pre, I think you will be good with the Krell FPB amp and B&Ws. |