Jc51373, should be an awesome amp.
If you think you may consider a speaker upgrade in the future and if you like B&W sound, I think the new 803D will impress you. |
haven't heard these cables. I think if you're getting the 803Ds then wait with cables. What will work now with your current speakers may not be what you want with the 803Ds. So if you are going for the 803Ds, change the cables then. IMO |
I would choose the Krell.
I heard the MC402 with B&W 803S and it was pretty good, but nothing I would buy though.
If you want speed, detail and bass slam, then go for Krell.
Since you're using tubed pre, I think you will be good with the Krell FPB amp and B&Ws. |
I also agree with Arthur about speakers. N804 by nature don't go low in the bass. Krell will definitely help to bring out some bass impact, but ultimately, if you like B&Ws, you should go hear the 803D. IMO these speakers are a big improvement over the previos series. They have detail, are smooth sounding and with bass performance that is on par with the 802s. But since you are going with Krell, it'll drive most any speaker you will get in the future. |
Take a look at Pass Labs amps. I run X250.5 with N803.
Can't complain. |
keep the amp powered up.
No surprise this one is better than Krell KAV.
FPB series is a different matter though and would be an interesting comparison with the MC402. |
Jc51373, that's the way I felt when I listened to MC402, that it sounded nice but was not really involving in absolute terms.
You are expecting the Krell to show the weakness of which component in your system?
Keep in mind that MC402 provides equal amounts of power into 8, 4 and 2 ohm loads - 400w/ch. But MC402 doesn't really get hot....it runs cool.
Krell doubles the power into 4 and doubles again into 2 ohms. This would be an advantage with the B&Ws.
Disadvantages with the big Krell - it's heavy, gets hot and draws a lot of power. You'll most likely need an amp stand. |
Jc51373, go for Krell FPB. Don't MAKE yourself like this amp. If it's not for you, then that is it.
Does your dealer have anything else aside from the MAC he can let you listen to? Classe, Pass, Audio Research, Levinson? |
I hear you man. That is my impression also. I've heard these amps with exact same speakers as I have. Good, but I always walked away. Never bought the amp.
Ended up with Pass Labs X250.5 and love the way this thing sounds with my B&Ws. Very fine amp. Dynamic, smooth and detailed. No fatigue. Class A bias to 35w/ch after which it switches to A/B and still manages to sound awesome. Also a beast though.....around 100lbs.
I always loved the way Krell FPB amps sounded and wanted to get the Krell, but couldn't resist the Pass Labs amp when I heard it. Especially at the price.
I went through the same thing you are going through but I did that with a cd player. I always wanted the ARC CD3MkII since the day it was released. Tried to find the alternative. Tried different players, spent $ and was never happy until I saw that CD3MkII on top of my audio rack.
Don't waste time and money. You know what you want. Nothing else will suffice. |
Jc51373, I think the MAC you had probably needed more break in.....just giving it a benefit of a doubt.
I've heard the MC402 amp bunch of times and never really found the highs harsh, but did find the overall presentation uninvolving. There I completely agree with you. You have to like this type of sound to appreciate the MAC. That is why usually most people who like McIntosh gear don't like Audio Research, Krell and Pass.
I prefer the sonic presentation of ARC, Krell or Pass. They just draw a more honest sonic picture.
I also like Levinson gear, although it is more on the darker side, but still involving and musical. |
I told ya the 803D kick ass.
The speakers that made me not want to listen to my system for about 2 days were the Wilson Alexandria run by all top of the line Levinson(33H monos, top preamp and player). other than that, I have not experienced anything yet that made me not want to listen to my system whan I got home. Well, aside from some live performances I heard of course, so....
Here is my take:
going from your speakers to 803S is a big jump in performance. Low end, soundstaging, ability to play more effortlessly, it's all there. Actually between the N803 and N804 there was a big difference when my friend was buying the speakers. He intially wanted the N804 but once he listened to the same cut on the N803 it was all over.
For me though, what actually sets apart the 803D from the 803S is not only the extra bass driver(which I love by the way because the bass has tremendous impact that my N803 can not even touch) but the tweeter.
The D tweeter is silky smooth and really detailed in the most natural way. And to me the 803Ds are the best balance of all good(including price/performance ratio) things in the B&W 800 line. The new diamond tweeter is worlds apart from the older tweeter, which if I am not mistaking is on the 803S. The 803S is like I said a very nice step up from your N804 anyway. Actually the 803S go a bit deeper in the bass than my N803. Which is nice, but the tweeter man....the tweeter....that for me is the main attraction on the 803D.
I think if you can swing the 803Ds, you will not regret it. The difference between the 803S and 803D you heard could have been limited by electronics, but with your Krell, the 803Ds should be just excellent. My opinion, but your money, so it's all up to you, but you know what the 803D sound like and you know what you are missing, but can you live without what the 803Ds do? If yes, then cool. |
let me know how that A/B audition goes. As I mentioned I think stepping up to 803 whether D or S will be a big step over your current speakers. Seems like you could still listen to your system but can't stop thinking about the bigger B&Ws. :)
P.S
120w/ch Mac for these B&Ws is not an amp. |
Jc51373, sorry I screwed things up for you by suggesting the audition of 803Ds.
My bad
:)
Have you had a chance to go back to the dealer and listen to 803S vs 803D? |
Naturally this amp is more resolving than your Krell KAV was. So now you probably hear more of your other components. Not that the speakers are in fault here, but could be your upstream gear.
what are your IC and sp cables?
Also, I'd suggest leaving the amp on for few days with music playing most of the time. If you just inserted the amp into your system it could be that it hasn't fully warmed up and the caps are not fully charged yet. |
Jc51373, better cables will certainly help.
I think now, with this amplifier, you should be able to tell difference between cables pretty easily.
You said you think that your speakers are the weakest link. I think your speaker cables are the weakest link at this point. They barely fit with the rest of your system now that you have taken it to the next level.
If you don't want to spend a lot on speaker cables, try a used pair of Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun. They should be a very nice step up. I had these and they worked pretty good with my B&Ws. |
Jc51373, the Pass X250.5 was an excellent addition to my system. It is truly a world class amp. Resolving, dynamic and smooth. Really can't find any faults or anything I would like to improve on as far as amplification.
I am pretty surprised that you have to do some kind of mods to this amp to make it work with your preamp. Hmmmm
I think that the sibilance could be in part due to your interconnects and speaker cables. Do you experience this sibilance on all the recordings or just some? |
J, both the MAC and Krell FPB amps are more transparent than your KAV amp was.
Probably the case is that now you are revealing, through your FBP amp into the B&Ws, some of the weakest points of your system.
I know you said you've been through some speaker cables before and it was a waste. IMO now, since you have upgraded the amplification, it is time to look it over.
I would start with the interconnects. Especially the set between the source and the preamp. I would do this before the speaker cable change.
I almost completely exclude your speakers as the weak link and the cause of the problem you are having. Yes, they are not up to task with regards to reproducing the bass that the Krell is capable of delivering. In any other area, the speakers are fine.
If you are about to audition the speaker cables, this may be a good test for the rest of the system and your existing interconnects. See how everything sounds with these cables. What have changed for the better, what got worst, what qualities remained.
If you can, buy some used ICs here and try them out. Just make sure you are dealing with the brands/models that are easy to re-sell. |
Arthur, right on.
Jc51373, let the new source break in. Keep your system on and don't touch anything for several days. See if it gets better.
Sometimes when you move the wires the sound changes and the system needs time to settle again. I'm not kidding. |
Jc51373, so have you tried what Krell suggested? |
Jc51373, whatever you do, be careful. The caps cary some voltage. You may want to unplug the amp several hours in advance to discharge the caps before you do this. |
10-01-07: Mhelming
... Although they may have different outputs into those impedances, stop at 400 the MC402 does not...
Mhelming Oh yeah? Where does it stop then? At 402? Based on what I heard from this amplifier and its capabilities of driving a difficult load, I even doubt it makes 300w/ch so whatever that McIntosh rep said, I'd divide by 2(into 4) and by 4(into 2 ohms). |
Jc51373, I would suggest trying something different than Nordost altogether. I am not sure if it is revealing system weaknesses or could it be that it is just plain wrong in that mix of components? |
Jc51373, great!
But I still think you should check out sp cables and ICs. |
I think you made the right choice. You obviously liked the speakers a lot, so....
It's also a good thing to take a break from this for a while. Usually works for me. I get to appreciate the capabilities of the system once everything is back in place. I had no amplifier for almost 2 months at one point. It's tough, but it's not bad.
803Ds should be lots of fun!
Keep us posted. |
Mhelming, yes, by ear measure. If it fails this test, it doesn't really matter how it looks like on paper.
I auditioned the MC402 with B&W 803S. Did not like the way it handled the B&Ws, which are not an easy speaker to drive as the impedence goes into a 3ohm category.
Sound was good on normal listening levels but once pushed harder, it really didn't stay together that good.
Very much possible that you prefer Mac sound over Bryston...depends on a system context. I can see that.
Enjoy your MAC! |
Get the 802Ds first and see how it goes from there. I would think the Mac's recommendation on the hiogher end monoblocks is a good one....if you want to stay with McIntosh amps. For B&Ws the more power the better. But I heard the 803Ds wtih the MC501 amps and they did sound good.
There are lots of good amps out there, but if you like the Mac, go for the amp with most power if you;re talking B&Ws.
Just my opinion. |
Mhelming, 803Ds are great speakers man! Now you heard what I was talking about when you heard the 402 with 803D. I guess now you know why I'm not much of a 402 fan. |
