Martin Logan Prodigy with Sonic Frontiers Power

What a project this has been. So much great feedback from the forum and suggestions from industry.

Most was surely suggesting that I go to very large amps and that SS amps really make these sing. Allot of folks also suggested that tubes are surely the way to go with electrostatics but they lack base...uhhhh the delema.

I first moved to the KRELL 300M mono with good success in improving the overall volume and bass of the speakers. But, they did not give me the romantic sound I was used to. They were accurate but almost too accurate and thus sound analytical.

The SF Power 3s just did not have the drive nor grunt to give them what the Krells did. They were a on the weak side of "come listen to me for hours and hours". :)

So, let's see...I started with a 110W/ch Tube amp, went to 700W/ch SS, and then to 220W/ch tube again. None did it for me so I was about to sell it all and go back to dynamic speakers with a tube amps that I was used to. Then, I was approached by someone who wanted my Krells and wanted to trade me for other amps....with a wapping 50W/ch...ha ha...silly, no? How can my huge Martin Logan Prodigies that are hybrids possibly be driven by what was contrary to "you need much more power" to drive those speakers.

Wholly molly, I have never heard these speakers sound so good!!!! Now I know what the Electrostatic buffs mean about smooth, transparent, and coherency. Not to say I am never going back to box speakers but they will have to be pretty good to compete with these Prodigies.

So, what amps did I go to? Cary 805 AEs. 50Watts of nectar! Running with a Cary SLP-05 preamp. Now toss in, only after I was satisfied with the smooth and present bass of the prodigies alone, dual/stereo Martin Logan Decent i subs to fill the room...and house. :)

This system now is super clear, wide, deep, and full. Well, as far as what I know of these characteristics. In all honestly, it does sound just as good as many of the great systems I heard at the past weekends Nor Cal show and better than most of the speaker demos there.

Again, thanks all for the help...now, how do I make myself go to the office when I have all this wonderful sound at home. :)

-NAK8

I have Odysseys. Upgraded from Classe CAM200 monoblocks to a CJ premier 350. Huge improvement in power, resolution, tonality, bass... everything.

>>BTW, I called ML on Friday... they said the 110W/ch Tube power should be plenty to for these...but that the hell do they know. :) LOL

The people at the ML factory also drive some of the smaller models with very low power amps and integrateds. Yet the MORE POWER myth for MLs continues unabated in audiophile circles. The designers will tell you flat out that you do not need hundreds of watts to drive their speakers. But Joe audiophool knows better.

You should get an amp/integrated that is very stable into 4 ohm loads and avoid class D amps as most of them will not handle this load.

Hello,

I once owned Martin Logan Odysseys and Sonic Frontiers Powers 3's. It was not good combination, IMO. The Sonic Frontiers Power 3's will not provide the bass tightness and control you are seeking on the ML Prodigy.

If you remain committed to the Prodigy's and if budget allows, you may find the the ML's will sound wonderful with VAC PHI amps, as well as Convergent Amps. Both of these amps will provide excellent bass control, and will have a much more refined mid range and sweeter highs than the Krell and Sonic Frontiers. Admittedly, the Krell will have the "best" bass.

David

ok.... so I received my mono amps yesterday, Krell 300Ms. These are 350W/ch into 8 ohms and 700 into 4 ohms. Prodigies are rated at 4 ohms so I was expecting to hear some huge differences between the tubes at 110W into 4 ohms and the solid state at 700W. Not only in volume but also accuracy and dynamics.

And my ears said.... oh man! Maybe I am not the tube purist that I was hoping to be. :) The Prodigies came alive as if I upgraded speakers. I can now hear much more of the music and they sound like, what i think, the engineers intended them to sound like.

As for sound differences, yes, the tubes do have a smoother sound but now the bottom end is really accurate and tight. As a bass enthusiast, I kinda like this better. The problem I did find was that some of the top end got a little bright for me but then again I was playing a CD and not vinyl, which my ears are more comfortable with.

I have a pair of Power 3s coming so to audition in comparison to the large power of the Krells... Let's see if more tube power will give me the same effect on the bottom end and smooth out the the top. If not, I will be fully happy running these Krells.

Thanks for all the help and advice gents!

NAK8

I have the ML Request and not the Prodigy; however, the best amp I have used so far and still use is the Plinius SA100 III. It is only 125 watts, but that is not an issue as this amp has no problems driving the Request. Consider one of the Plinius amps and you will not be dissatisfied. Good luck.

Hey Shawn.

Just in case you do not want to buy amps you may check with Paul Speltz about using autoformers with them which deals with the wicked impedance swing. I have no experience with them but Paul is honest and charges real world (read sane) prices for his work.

ML is wrong imho on power. I used cj premier 11a on reQuests (70 per side) and it flat ran out of gas quick. I biamped with Hafler 500 on bottom and 11a on top and that was much better but still had glare soon after 95db or so. I ended up with premier 12's (140 side) but also went to Summits which have powered woofers. Add that to 140 tube per side and oh yeah dynamics are back!!!

The prodigys will use probably use all the amp you can afford but to my ears and in my room tubes filled out the lean nature of logans much better than solid state. I had plenty of juice with a Hafler 500 but much preferred tubes for the sound even when my dynamics were compromised because of power limitations.

Hope you sort it out as I think you'll have a ball with Prodigys.

Have Fun!

man.....so much great info here. Thanks gents. I am open to bi-amping but would be curious if those who know would prefer a couple of Mono Block Tube amps (SF Power 3s) over keeping the Power 2 for the panels and running SS to the base. (suggestions on a comparable SS amp to my SF P2 would be appreciated, 100w/ch).

BTW, I called ML on Friday... they said the 110W/ch Tube power should be plenty to for these...but that the hell do they know. :) LOL

-Shawn

I agree with the above comments, more power is needed. Many owners on the www.martinloganowners.com site run Pass Labs,especially the XA.5 class A mono amps.

I run a Simaudio W-5 with Odyssey's, but plan to go to Simaudio W-7 mono's at 500 watts a side or Pass Labs XA100.5

Levinson and Classe are 2 others I have heard that worked well. I use a Proceed HPA2 on ascents, you can pick a used one up pretty cheap these days just to try.

I MEAN WOOFERS INSTEAD OF WOFFERS,GETTING OLD.IF YOU CAN BI-AMP,SOLID STATE ON THE WOOFERS, AND TUBES ON THE PANELS,THIS WORKS GREAT FOR ME.ENJOY.

I had Prodigy's before my horns... I tried a few different amps with them, including your sonic Frontiers. The Sonic Frontiers is a nice amp and worked well with other smaller ML speakers I owned before the Prodigy's. However, I found I needed more power with the larger panels and dual woofers. I am a tube guy at heart and after a few different SS (classe, pass, parasound)amps I settled on an ARC VT200. It sounded great but the damn thing kept blowing up.....

I ALSO OWN A PAIR OF MARTIN LOGAN PRODIGY'S,I HAD THEM NOW FOR ABOUT 5 YEARS,IN MY EXPERENCE WITH THEM IS THAT THE MORE POWER THE BETTER.MY AMPS OF CHOICE IS AN McINTOSH MC402 400WATTS PER,ANTHEM STATEMENT P-2 375WATTS PER,MUSICAL FIDELITY KW 500 OVER 700WATTS PER,ALL IN 4OHMS, I FEEL THE MORE POWER THE BETTER AND NOT JUST FOR PLAYING LOUDLY,BUT ALSO FOR THOSE VERY SOFT PLAYING MOMENTS ,BECAUSE THE AMP HAVE SO MUCH MORE POWER IN RESERVE,AND THEY PLAY MORE IN CLASS A OPERATION AT LOWER VOLUME.THIS SUMMER I BOUGHT 2 McINTOSH MC 275 POWER AMPS TO RUN IN MONO ON THE PRODIGYS,A MATCH MADE IN HEAVEN EXCEPT FOR ONE THING, THE BASS WAS A LITTLE SLUGGISH, OR SOFT TO MY LIKING ,SO I RAN THE MC 275 ON THE PANELS IN MONO MODE AND THE ANTHEM P-2 ON THE WOFFERS IN BI-AMP MODE.{AUDIO NIRVANA}, COULD NOT BE HAPPIER.RUNNING THE MACS IN MONO MODE ONE PER SPEAKER DOUBLED MY WATTAGE TO 150WATTS,GRANTED THEY SOUNDED GREAT BUT ADDING THE ANTHEM IN TO FREE THE MACS OF DEALING WITH THE BASS, GIVING THAT JOB TO THE P-2 WITH A DAMPING FACTOR OF 600, NOW THAT'S A BIG "WOW"

Call Chris at the Parts ConneXion. He designed the Power 2 and has several options that could well mate the amp with the speakers. Hooking ML's to any amp is as close as you can get to a dead short. Chris is one of the most knowledgable folks in the field. Always best to talk to an expert.

Nak8,

I believe Martin Logan used to feature Parasound amps when showing. The Parasound monoblocks were well built and affordable and matched well with stats if recollection is working.

The Sanders amp mentioned should be looked at real close as Roger Sanders is one of the top stat engineers in the world.

Have Fun!

I used Krell and ARC both worked well on my prodigy still I greatly preferred the horn system I replaced them with.

Wow, thanks for the input. So it look like the Krell is the best match up. Does anyone know if this has been the "known" consensus and if ML suggests them as well? Also, do my symptoms point to the amp (from your experience) or are these comments general suggestions that more power than the 110W/ch tube that I am running would be good.

It would be a bummer to get a new amp and still have the same issues if the amp was not the culprit. :)

Ditto the previous responses, I had Prodigies for 5 years used krell 300c then 400cx the ML's love current. Give them what they need and they will reward you with some very fine sound.

I agree. You need more power and control. Try a Sanders ESL amp and hear what these babies can do. The larger Pass amps also work very well.

You need a lot more to make the Prodigy really sings. The best match I had heard was Krell fpb 600. If that is too much amp for you, at a minimum, get a 300W/ch solid state like a Bryston 4B or a Classa 350. When driven properly, Prodigy sounds big, effortless and extremely dynamic.