Magico S5 vs KEF Blade 2 vs TAD Evo One vs YG Kipod II Sig w/pwr bass

Bump, This might be the most insane thread I've ever read, not that I can't relate.

Very nice- fsmithjack
good to read that the ML and PL are a sonic match.
Keep writing your thoughts/impressions.

Happy Listening!

Thanks Jafant - Merry Christmas to you as well. 

Hey Pokey77 - actually my deal on the H30 fell through and I was bummed at first because I was really looking forward to it but when I heard my Pass Labs X350.5 mated to my new pre the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp I was ecstatic.

What a great preamp and the goal was to get the H30 to match with the No.326s for a new amplification front end. The No.326s with its speed and precise imaging is a perfect match for the X350.5's silky warm, bold and round sound. I think if the No.326s was mated to thinner sounding amp it would not help fill it out as as much as some pre's do but with richer, warmer amp like the X350.5 it is the ideal match. Its a match made in heaven and I love it. About as close as you can get to having the tubes and solid state sound while still being fully solid state. 

So happy with the combo that I just ordered the dual mono phono module boards for the No.326s and am fixing to spin some vinyl and on the look out for a table.

Here are below in the link are some of my thoughts on a table.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/help-please-vpi-classic-signature-3d-arm-or-dr-feickert-woodp...

Hope to get one soon as my phono modules are expected on Wednesday via USPS.

I think the leader at the point is the Dr. Feickert Woodpecker with 12" Jelco arm and Dynavactor 20x2 cart. My budget which I have from selling other gear is at $4,500 all in and this is the table, arm, cart combo I am leaning toward.

Do you guys have any idea's kind of stuck on what to do and have been looking long and hard. Need Table, Arm and Cart and want something that can legit compete and be good enough that I want to listen to vs just sticking with my digital. Thanks  


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/help-please-vpi-classic-signature-3d-arm-or-dr-feickert-woodp...

Merry Christmas! fsmithjack

@fsmithjack 

Bump?

@fsmithjack 

How is the H30?

Hey Peter and Jafant - thanks guys!

I'm kind of nervous because I really like my Pass amp. I love it actually and had no real desire to change it unless an H30 in the right situation came along.

A couple times the last few months a Hegel H30 popped up but the sellers did not want a trade in.

I could have sold mine and bought one but then with my luck i would have sold my Pass then the Hegel would be sold so I was happy with my Pass enough where the only way I would pull the trigger would have been if they took my Pass as a trade and the deal worked price wise. I was lucky and everything fell into place but now a little nervous as the Pass is a very pretty sounding amp and the Hegel audition was quite some time ago but my gut said go so i went. Wish me luck :)  

Thanks! for the update- fsmithjack
you are well on your way my friend. Your system is going to be very nice once everything is in place. Everything has a place by the way.
Keep auditioning and writing your findings, impressions.
Happy Listening!

Hello fsmithjack
Glad to see things are common together for you. You put together a nice system. 
Let us know how you like it when everything is in place.
enjoy Pete

Hey Guys - just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback and help.

I purchased the Magico S5 Loudspeakers with all of your help and could not be any happier.

There has been quite of bit of trial and error along with the way trying to dial them in and match everything up nice in my system and there is still much work to do but I am super happy with my decision.

They are so different to what I have former experience with and respond so differently to changes.

Little changes can have huge impact and huge changes small impact and I think that speaks to how resolving and low distortion they are.

They just show everything and a huge change that is a nice fit can work well and not feel like a big change and a smaller tweak that they do not agree with really gets shown in all its glory or lack there of. I am enjoying the process and there is a definite learning curve but I am getting there.

When I started my speaker search and this thread I listed all my other supporting system gear and I think it is interesting now to share the changes that have been made since then to try and get the most out of my speakers and my system overall. I listed them below.

I just got a Mark Levinson No.326s preamp (2 days ago) and have a Hegel H30 amp coming soon next week so plenty of optimizations in the works.

Looking to push my rig to the next level or two. Any feedback or ideas on a pre match for the Hegel H30? Do you think the No/326s will work great or does anyone know of another pre that works great with the Hegel H30? Many have said tube pre's match well with Hegel amps.

You may wonder "why Hegel H30 thought you were happy with your Pass". Yes I was and am quite happy with the Pass X350.5.

A little ways back before I bought my Magico's I was at Goodwin's and heard the Hegel H30 amp driving Magico's with Kubala-Sosna Emotion Speaker Cables and absolutely loved it. I was blown away. It was better than the super expensive Constellation amp. Much better and it was the sound I have been looking for since. It led to my buying my Magico's and my Kubala-Sosna cables and thought if some day I have a chance to get one of these Hegel's I need to try and do it.

It was way too much money for me to buy new but thought maybe if some day down the road a pre-owned one shows up and the seller will take my Pass as a trade and it is a good enough deal where I can afford it then well we'll see. There are a lot of maybes here but thought if the stars line up at some point I need to look at it closely.

I wasn't looking at add another variable because I'm still trying to get the preamp situated but an opportunity arose and I didn't hesitate and pulled the trigger and am really looking forward to it. This is why I am asking for preamp feedback if anyone has any?

Here is the equipment I had when I started this thread not that long ago and below each is what I have now or am getting soon. Thanks   

** Source: Bricasti M1SE DAC
(Same - no interest or desire to change it - I love my source but I am going to send back to factory to add/upgrade their Ethernet player).

** Preamp: Parasound JC2 Pre
(BAT VK-32SE then to Mark Levinson No.326s pre I got 2 days ago)

** Amp: Pass Labs X350.5 Amp
(Hegel H30 amp - will have it in about a week)

** IC: Darwin TRUTH Balanced
(Nordost Heimdall 2 XRL 1m)

** SC: HiDiamond D8 w/Furutech
(Cardas Clear Reflection to Kubala-Sosna Emotion)

** PC: HiDiammond P3 (7)
(Verastarr Grand Illusion II) 

AC: HiDiamond HDX2
(PS Audio P10 Regenerator)

Hey Guys - HAPPY THANKSGIVING to everyone.

Your feedback and comments have helped me so much.

I just started a new thread about a couple amps I am considering and wanted to share a link with you guys if you feel like sharing.

Thanks again :)

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/help-advice-feedback-ps-audio-bhk-300-hegel-h30-pass-labs-x25...

@jtgofish Where did you hear the Yamaha? I have been looking online as to when it will arrive in the USA. I have called Yamaha USA to ask but no luck on both fronts. I was hoping to hear this speaker and compare it to the KEF Ref 3 for my home office. I will likely be working from home all the time starting next year and I want to upgrade my office system from the KEF LS50 to something with more bass. Keeping the LS50 for the bedroom.

The new Luxman 509x integrated looks like a super unit to power the office system. I made 2 A'Gon thread on the Luxman and the Yamaha if anyone has anyone info to share on either piece.

@jtgofish 

"Somehow they sound both incredibly detailed and incredibly musical." This is what the TAD Evolution 1 sounds like.

No sorry but I have been on a search for the perfect speaker for 35 years and have owned every type but the Yamaha NS5000s are the first ones I have heard that are truly convincing.Not in a sonic fireworks sort of way but in an accurate and real sounding way.An immense amount of research and development has gone into these together with 40 years of experience.
They may look like any other glossy black box but the Yamaha approach of tuning out resonances is a far more sophisticated and targeted approach to the alternatives and the Zylon drivers also appear to have a technological advantage over all that has come before.
Somehow they sound both incredibly detailed and incredibly musical.

Never even considered these nor were they ever on my radar.

Not saying they are not great I have no idea but it was semi - sort of my view the KEF Blade (although the Blades are utterly amazing) where not saying it’s fair but those mass market companies can’t help but to cut cost somewhere and for me the final build quality matters.

Not as much as the sound but this is a lot of money for Speakers so when sound is too close to call then everything comes into play in regards to the final decision.

I hated the bottom feet area on the Blades - may not effect sound at all or overall quality either and may not even be a legit argument because those mass market companies have the R&D funds to built amazing sounding products but the bean counters always seem to slither in and find a way to save money on this or that and effectnthe final build quality perception where with Magico / YG would never put a plastic / type of base like that. They over build everything and let the cost just end up being what it ends up being or at least thats whats the final product feels like to me. 

The Sony - Pioneer - Yahmaha’s of the world just don’t work for me at but maybe for others I’m sure. Those newer Sony Speakers seemed pretty decent but I didn’t see them in the Magico / YG / Blades conversation. 

Yamaha NS5000s are a must hear.
A giant leap forward in midrange reproduction and the rest of the spectrum is also very good.But at last we have a speaker that reproduces voice and acoustic instruments that do not sound like speakers but rather the real thing.

Yes the Bricasti is staying - it’s the rock which I build everything else around.

i must say in my system i am really impressed with with my new PS Audio P10 Conditioner i just picked up. One few items I’ve bought brand new - the Bricasti I got new also.

it is great. A few years back i owned a PS Audio Power Plant Premier and thought it was ok but nothing special but this P10 is outstanding. It’s been a very nice surprise - i thought it would be a nice add and quiet things down but it’s done much more than that. Highly recommend! 

I can't comment on the speakers you are considering/purchased but the Bricasti is an exceptional DAC with attenuator. Hold on to it. Let it be your baseline for excellent sound. 


Dealer Jim

Thanks and yes I’m a bit concerned that the SC cables might cause that also :( 

I m struggling with that a bit also. It’s a tough balance. It’s like being on the point of a tip with such little wiggle room either way where just a bit too much either way and it slides too far the other way. How many darn cables can I go though... lol.

IC’s are different where they should not be but in effect are tone controls to a certain extent. I just want nuetral - transparent cables with a touch of warmth with air and space and extension without being bright - all seem either too much one way or the other based on if your using tubes or solid state. Too neutral is clinical and lifeless and too warm is colored and blurs with such a transparent speaker it can get tough.

Ive got a real good feel for where I am and where i want to go but power cables power conditioners IC’s SC’s DAC’s and preamps getting all right on point. Well that’s the gig right.

If the ML pre works out i should have the Speaker - Amp - Pre - DAC - PC’s - Conditioner all nailed down tight but SC and IC I think are going to need more time and more effort. Even IC I think can be last to dial it in a ways here or there but even though these SC’s I have now are so much better they are not where I want them - I’ve been lucky i have not been bit yet money wise as I’ve been able to flip through them ok but I’m bound to get bit sooner or later if I can’t nail a pair down soon :( 

While I haven't heard your cables, based on your description of the sound change with those cables, I can't imagine the 326S will be darker/more colored than those cables (which cables are probably going to prevent you from getting the "air" you're looking for). Based upon my experience going direct, I would also be surprised if the sound direct is competitive with that of a good preamp like the 326S.

I have 3 preamps, Pass X0.2, AR ref5, and BAT VK51se.  I have 4 amplifiers.  I have a pair of Lamm ML1.1 mono blocks, a pair of Pass XA60.8 mono blocks, and M2 and J2 First Watt amps.  I use Cardas wire exclusively.  I have an Esoteric K-01 and an Esoteric SA-50  sacd/cd players, a Brooklyn DAC, and an Aries streamer.  Over the years I have had several speakers, including Thiel 2.7s, Quad ES, Martin Logan Aeon, Magnepan 1.7.  Last year I purchased a pair of YG Carmels and I fell in love with them, so I sold the Thiels and the Quads.  I then picked up a pair of Kipod II signature speakers, which have a passive woofer.
I have purchased nearly all my equipment used.  I have gotten great deals and have had no problems with the equipment.  
My room is also about 20x20 with a 15 foot cathedral ceiling.  
I should add that I have always used an amplified subwoofer, set where it basically just provides the low "rumble" of the venue where the recording was made.  
After 15+ years as an Audio Enthusiast, I can finally say that I have  found my speakers.
The Carmels are in a bedroom (12x12x8) and they provide  wonderful music that is very articulate and musical, even at low volume.  They are paired with the BAT VK51 and either one of the First Watt amps.
I should add that I was hooked on the sound of the Quads and the Magnepans until I discovered the YG speakers.  
I have found that with the YG speakers  I can have the beautiful midrange of the planar speakers and gain the dynamics and "slam" you get with cones, both with my solid state and tube amps.  The Kipod II signatures are driven equally well with both sets of monoblocks.  I use the AR Reference 5 preamp with the Kipod II, but I may switch to the solid state Pass X0.2 to experiment.  I have used the Pass preamp with the Carmel speakers and First Watt amps and the sound was as excellent.
 Like the Carmels, the Kipods  maintain all of there characteristic sound at levels that are pretty much "background" listening, which my wife really likes.  They will also rock the house and play symphonies at higher volume with a wonderful sounstage and big dynamic contrasts. There is "zero" distortion and a black background at all sound levels.
Oh, by the way, I listen to classical music primarily, especially symphonies, but I am also a 1950s and 60s aging lover of rock.
I will admit I have never heard any of the other speakers on the list of speakers across this site.
I would also like to say that in my experience with Class A power you do not have to have 200+watt amps.  The 60 watt Pass and 90 watt Lamm are plenty of power for the Kipod II.  My preamp has 100 points of gain (18 db I believe) and I seldom go above 30 and typically listen at 10 or 20.
Happy hunting, but most of all enjoy the music.
 

Thanks - I’m a little worried that it is a bit dark but you are comparing to a great pre - do you think it will be a good amount darker vs from my Bricasti direct? I’m of giving a bit here to get more there if the sum of the parts are net gain? Would think it basically being the same price as Bricasti could be a nice ad and again ok with a little color but my Magico’s are breaking in nicely and combined with my Kubala-Sosna Emotion Speaker Cables there is NO MORE high frequency problems. I’m actually blown away by how good these Magico’s. I honestly didn’t think I’d get to where i am so I’m super happy in that regard but want that last link. That Preamp and pull it all together - to drive those dynamics and stretch that image wide and deep and provide some more air. I want that air and want to make sure it’s not dark or closed in deny that air. Heck that’s why we want SS preamps for the precision, air, dynamics, transparency and more focused imaging and deeper look into the music. Now I’m not comparing to a KXR but vs Bricasti direct. Do you think it can pull this off. A little color added in is just fine with me if it can pull the rest off. 
Thanks 

I had the 326S.  It is a very good preamp that I enjoyed while I had it and at its price it will likely be hard to beat.  The things to be aware of is that it's a little bit darker/colored (which will likely go well with your treble brightness issues) and not the last word in transparency, but nothing that I would consider a major issue that would keep me from recommending it.  Ultimately,  I replaced it with the Ayre KX-R which was almost double the price but addressed the shortcomings of the 326S and then some but erred the other way in terms of treble which while more open was also strident.

I just started a thread asking about these 2-preamps but you guys have been with me on my system re-fit and wanted to see if any of you guys had feedback on these preamps:

Esoteric C03 preamp or Mark Levinson 326S preamp

ANY FEEDBACK - THOUGHTS - IDEAS would be so appreciated.

Hey guys - wanted to update you. I got the BAT VK32SE and my PS Audio P10 Conditioner from Fedex and have had a chance to install and listen a bit and these adds allow me to see right away where and how they fit or don't fit.. 

Like I said I am learning and working toward building my new system re-fit and figuring it out on the fly. I know I am going to make mistakes because most all my buys are without listening first. I know not ideal but also most items I am buying are used so that is sort of the price of this approach. Saves a ton of money but I also don't get to try in my own system first but also buying used and properly allows me to re-flip the items that are not the fits I am looking for.

This said here we go.

I know it is very early but right out of the gate the BAT is not for me. Great preamp and nice and warm and sounds great but these Magico speakers are so transparent and so resolving that they crave - require and demand nothing but the most transparent and neutral components in the chain.

The BAT just provides a bit too much in terms of moving away from neutrality. 

I now understand why all you guys want components that are dead neutral. I never got that before but I sure do now. Clear as day!

Once your system gets to a level of transparency where every little change really is highlighted and effects the whole you want everything else that is added to not take from that.

The BAT is sweet and has great bass and sounds great but I have been running my Bricasti direct and realize just how much more I appreciate that sound vs what a tube preamp offers.

Maybe another tube preamp that is more neutral would be more to my liking but I am on the transparency train now and its hard to add anything that doesn't help scrub that window clean and make it as clean and as pure as possible where the BAT added too much tint to that window. A pleasant hue of tint but I tint none the same and many of you told me this and I want the glass in that window as pure and as pristine as i can get it and would love help and feedback from you guys.

Many of you called this but it was important for me to try a decent tube to get that doubt out of my mind and sort of flush my brain of that idea. Sure tubes can add so much that is desired but in my situation the trade off's where too steep of a price for me and one I am not willing to pay.

What do you guys think?

I am thinking Solid State preamp. Ayre K-1xe or maybe a Mark Levingson 326s. I would love a Pass XP20 but none out there used and the XP30 way too much money and the XP10 might now be able to outdo my Bricasti direct. Decisions / decisions. 

Also, the PS Audio P10 is fantastic. I love it and it was a nice add on the neutrality and transparency front so happy about that. 

I am batting 500 liking 1 out 2 of my last changes/adds.

Also, on my new focused path of neutrality and transparency I am making another speaker cable change. I know a couple weeks is very quick for these changes but in light of what I have learned it makes sense to me.

I switched from HiDiamond D8 to Cardas Clear Reflection speaker cables. My main reason at the time was my speakers with the former cables were incredibly bright and I wasn't happy with my speakers and this cable change and the added break was very helpful to fix this.

The bottom line is the HiDiamonds and the Magico's were not a good match so I pulled the trigger and made the change. I went to warmer and richer cable which was a nice change but the cable is a warmer and richer cable. I want neutrality and transparency so I today pulled the trigger on a cable change.

I sold my Cardas Clear Reflection speaker cables for the same price I paid for them so no financial pain there but they did help me learn more about my speakers and my preferences as it relates to these speakers. Also, what drove this is my ideal cable came available so I pulled the trigger. These were more money than the Cardas CF cables. Not a ton more and but a few hundreds more not crazy expensive considering the buy sell road i take but I am hoping this will be a nice change because these are a more higher end cable and well thought of cable and are known to work great with Magico's

Kubula-Sosna Emotion 2.5 meter Speaker Cables. I am hoping these are great. I am hoping these and a solid state preamp rather than a tube preamp will get me closer to where I want to go. Both changes are chasing that neutrality and transparency goal. There is always the fear of going too far the other way so that is why rather than a Nordost or a silver cable I went with the Kubula-Sosna Emotion as they are known to be a musical cable yet quite transparent.


I think my guiding goals are now transparent, musical and neutral and in this order is this is what will drive all my future decisions and not sure I could own this so confidently without my trial error process of trying on this BAT tube preamp.

What do you guys think? 

Any good SS preamp idea's?

Any of you guys here these speaker cables I just bought?

Thanks as always for all the help. 

pokey77 - thanks so much !!!

People like you and many others is what I like so much about this website.

I am learning a lot and genuinely enjoy the hobby. I am getting there. This has been a challenging but rewarding system re-fit. I wasn't sure the Magico's were going to be for me but much of that was me needing to fix my own mistakes while removing the mismatches, the weak links and of course the break in is really coming along nicely..

Another cool thing is Magico is following this thread and they have reached out to me a multiple  times with positive encouragement, advice, and made themselves fully available to me to help. They even offered to send out a Magico rep to help me out with set up and advice, etc.

Pretty impressive considering I bought them used but they still cared and it was genuine and legit. Just nice people that wanted me to enjoy their products.

Goodwin's my local Magico dealer has been great also. I tried out a few of their cables to try and settle things down and overall they are fantastic as well. I have done deals with them in the past and most certainly will again the future.

I didn't want to really bother either of them because I bought these used but their empathy and kindness went a long way with me. I thought everyone should know that this OEM and their dealers really care. 

These speakers now with all these advances are really performing like I wasn't sure they would. I am looking forward to injecting some tubes into the signal path but no longer see it as needed and part of me is now thinking maybe a more pristine pre might even be more ideal. (Ayre, ML, Pass type of thing) 

We shall see but if I feel the BAT is sort of dark or even slightly adds a vial then its not staying. I like the upward projecting my system is on and don't want to stunt that or worse go the other way transparency wise. I think the BAT can be nice and dynamic and transparent so I am hoping it gooses things upwards but we shall see. If it's not as transparent and doesn't dig as deep as I hope the dealer I got it from also has the Allnic L- 3000 MKII and the Levinson 326S that might need to be swapped in but I will give the BAT a good old kick at the can first though :) 

@fsmithjack 

Totally agree. It would be nice if the hijacker would either back away or commit to civil commentary. In the end, it is all about the way we hear it. And if many hear the same thing, as in this case with Magico break-in, then the devil's advocate is not needed or appreciated. It has been fun to follow in your journey. I hope that this thread will get back on track and all those who've been following along will also appreciate that. Can't wait to hear your next revelations. Cheers

csmgolf - Well said and I totally agree with you. Some people if they can’t have the little tool put on it and measure it and then look at the results and analyze it then it doesn’t exist. 

I appreciate measuments and their critical role. Nelson says it all the time that his ear is the final binding decision maker. We are really just learning how and what to measure in so far as how much those measurements actually equate to actual better perceived sound.

How old crappy - well I shouldn’t say crappy but an old inexpensive Carver amp will measure better than some of the most beautiful sounding First Watt amps that Nelson makes. He finishes them up by ear with the help and guidenance of measurements but he is not a slave to them rather they are a tool he employ’s judiciously

He uses the measurements to get everything close and then tunes by ear. Sort of what we do. We get real good stuff and usually stuff that measures well and then we tune our rig the best we can with matching gear but we can’t even come to even agree on break in never mind actual design or tuning. 

Some people trust the ear. They believe in it because it’s not just the ear but how that ear provides sound and that sound connects and makes them feel a certain way rather than just listening there is an emotional connection.

With others none of that really matters but what’s on the plots and graphs and well the ear and the sound and the feel of the music plays a much more subordinate role to the science.

Fair enough - there is enough room for us all. 

I am more likely to believe something I can see, taste, touch, smell or hear vs what someone else says these things should be. I just experienced it myself why do I need someone to tell me about it and actually that it was not that at all and this is what that really was or should be it is? Does that make sense or as they say does that pass the smell test? 

Ok so I walk into a restaurant and I just tasted some new dish and to me it was flat out terrible. I just didn’t like anything about it. Actually I hated it. Made me nauseous :) 

Well that person just pulls out all kinds of proof from professional tasters and genuine French chefs and industry professionals and authorities on the matter they even did a triple blind scientific test to prove well beyond any reasonable doubt that what I just tasted was in fact was excellent tasting. I might be dumb founded and even question myself a just a little bit in front of all this proof to the contrary and wonder if I may even have a problem with my taste buds or something but only for a split second and then I’ll walk away laughing at them all thinking how crappy that food was and glad to let them have it :) and not doubt myself for another second :) 

@csmgolf

All good points. Though I am not trying to insinuate anything. To be clear, IF Magico indeed takes more than 600 hours to break-in (which I doubt for such a seriously well engineered speaker) then this is actually a poor design IF the design intent is accuracy and high fidelity. Frankly, I don’t believe Magico change audibly after a few hours of playing loud, which is a far cry from 600 hours or more.

You are right, mechanical should dominate. My point in commenting is that there are real observations out there that should not be discounted. Too many people say that Magico speakers go through that process to discount it, especially when there are known measurements that show that drivers change over time for a finite amount of time when they are new. They also change electrically over time. What else in a speaker changes electrically over time? Has anyone ever measured that? I know that I have had speaker crossovers modified and Clarity Cap MR installed. The sound absolutely changed over time. What causes that? I don't know. What I do know is that it was a real process similar to hearing a speaker with new drivers. To insinuate that Magico are poorly designed is in my mind absolutely not true. They are meticulously engineered. I have heard the S5 on several occasions at shows, some not so good, some good, and a couple very impressive. What was the reason for the differences? It could be any of a number of things, including speaker break in, system matching and room set up. IME, all of those things are real and matter.

@csmgolf 

Good point. However, would you not agree that at 40 Hz the acoustic suspension should dominate the overall response in a well designed box.

@fsmithjack 

If you review my comments you will see they are not a personal attack but entirely suggestions and responses to factual assertions by yourself who claims, "Houston" we have a problem.

I don't recall suggesting you get ATC speakers, as I dont think that would have been at all helpful on my part. So how this has become "the real matter at hand" in your mind is entirely your viewpoint which I don't share. I don't have a problem with your opinions about ATC. They are indeed the wrong speaker to purchase if you intend to flip them after a year or two. You certainly make a good point there.

Kenm10759 - I thought long and hard about the Blades before pulling the trigger on the Magico's. What size room is yours. I was thinking my room might work but thought it might on the verge of being too small. Your hearing them in both too small and one much better is good stuff. What sizes where they approx? Thanks 

If you read the text, the test was conducted using 40 hertz test tone at a power level to achieve half of x-max. Playing a signal like that will break in the spider at a much greater rate than any music signal that any person would listen to. And still, all of those drivers were showing changes at 80 hours, though they were decreasing at every interval. How many hours of music playing would it take to achieve the same thing? I am not sure, but my guess would be significantly more than that. If you also read in the first link, the responses by the manufacturers state that this happens with all woofers. They make no exception, cheap or not. The Scanspeak 8545 is notorious for this very behavior. It is $175 per driver, so not exactly cheap and it is an excellent sounding driver. One of my current speakers is Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rod, uses this driver and it sounds terrific within its limits. Every comment I have ever read on those speakers states a long break in time for that driver. It is not because the box is poorly designed. Bad assumption. Also note in the first link that the electrical Q changes throughout the course of the break in. Not just mechanical changes. Both manufacturers said that his measurements are what they see when they measure drivers. There are far too many people that experience the same thing to just dismiss it out of hand as their ears getting used to the sound or blaming it on poor design. 

@csmgolf

Good points! I agree with you.

Yes these small changes which are usually attributed to spider compliance are well known. Should the spider dominate the in box designed response - probably not on a good design?

So what seems not to be well understood is that an excellent driver and box design will be quite insensitive to spider compliance. A poor speaker and drive design will be sensitive to the spider compliance. It has a lot to do with the acoustic suspension (which dominates) and the power of the drive motor (magnet and coil diameter).

20 hours sounds about right for most of the break-in to have occurred on some drivers like the $30 one you referred to. I am confident Magico would use much higher spec and commensurately more expensive drivers.

An analogy is towing a trailer. A large diesel truck with a poweful 5 liter motor is not going to be as sluggish towing a trailor as a small gasoline van. In this case the higher torque perfornance of the truck makes the impact of the trailer mass less influential.

That larger room is what the Blade needs to sing. And man, they do. Like no other speaker I've heard, when they have the space around them is where they work best and have a remarkable ability to project the most defined soundstage I've ever heard. Depth and width of the soundstage is just uncanny. When I heard the Blade in a smaller room it just wasn't right, and that's where the Blade 2 did better. Both are a critical speaker in that if you have poor quality recordings, you'll know it.

Don't know why the link isn't opening. Under technical on the left side, click on burn in myths.

http://www.gr-research.com/myths

Just in case anyone thought it was just one driver that exhibited the measured behavior of break in.

Shardone - I know what I wrote it’s my thread and my words - you don’t believe in breakin - you have made that point crystal clear on my thread over and over and over. We get it.

The thing is Magico’s’s not broken in and with poor matching cables were terrible and they drove me nuts. Not having the XLR pins caused some kind of ground or impedance problem or something that messed with the high frequency and set up was off and all that contributed. Learning process - I’ve said that like 50 times I’m on here to learn and get help from others. 

The big thing was break in and we Magico owners no what we know and we all know your thoughts on matter. Break in doesn’t exist in your ATC world - fair enough it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist in others but I get the feeling after all your reponses you take this as fact and you are right and everyone else is wrong?

Maybe - maybe not but I can tell that there were many things that contributed to my Speakers sounding poorly and most would support your argument but so what. My speakers are breaking in and sounding way better for it. 

Let’s get to the real matter at hand.

Your incredibly overrated and overpriced ATC Speakers.

Those are some of the ugliest and most boring sounding speakers on earth. So overpriced and so overrated. Talk about a stone in a lake drop in value once used. Why is that? Because they are so boring. Oh yes very accurate and very precise and very linear and measure perfect and are the most boring and ugly and expensive Speakers going. 

I’ll tale Magico’s any day over those overgrown professional studio speakers. Hahahaha..

Yes very expensive it’s just that brand does nothing for me. They are bla bla bla brand = ATC. Their amps sure great bang for buck and many of their less expensive speakers are excellent for the money but the flagship ones like you have for that money... Yawn yawn yawn... lol 

http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm

For those that don’t believe drivers burn in and that there are no measurements for proof. Clearly, it is not his ears getting used to it.

These are your words not mine:

"these Magico's are burning a whole right through my head like a lazier beam."

"I've been setting them up and measuring and tweaking and they are giving me a royal head ache now?

How can this be? I spent a ton of money and time and was so looking forward to these?"

"Even my non audiophile wife said these don't sound as nice as your other speakers - how come? Msybe she sensed it from me but I'm like - really ?? "

"I was hoping they would sound good - different but good but not the case. I had nothing to do with my old speakers or what I'm used to. Any person after 2 minutes will say yeah Houston we have a problem here..."

My comments are based on your statements. If you are now retracting entirely everything you said then perhaps break-in may be the solution for you.

Oh yeah - 2 SRA - Silent Running OHIO Class Audio Vibration Platforms for DAC and soon to get Preamp. Really liked what the SRA did for my Bricasti. Forgot about this other add. 

In all fairness to the Magico I think a more sober look at events needs to be considered. First - I’ve said over and over I am no expert. I make mistakes and am learning. Yes I have owned many half decent speakers and some decent components and a diverse bunch at that over the years but that and a $5 bill still isn’t buying me a large Starbucks coffee and a muffin.

Magico’s I’ve learned expose a weekness or mismatch badly and much more so than any Speaker, component or anything I’ve ever heard or known.

I stand behind my no expert claim but that said I can speak first hand to other Speakers I’ve mentioned before such as Wilson, Sonus Faber, Revel, Ascendo, Focal, B&W, Avalon, Merlin, Audio Physic, Martin Logan, Verity, Dynaudio and there are others I’m sure I just can’t think of now and numerous models from many of these brands but none are even remotely close to exposing a weekness or a mismatch like these speakers do.

It was an eye opening and a learning experience. If you have owned or listened to Magico’s in one of these situations then you know exactly what I’m saying and if not take my word for it - it’s not Pretty.

They are ruthless but I like it! They dig deep into that wound and poor salt right into it and swish it around. 

These Magico’s absolutely dispised the HiDiamond D8 Speaker Cables I had. Hated them! 

Combine this terrible match with my early poor trial and error set up that had too much tow in and too close together with wrong rake. These Speakers were not spread far enough apart (took me hours to dial these in, the smallest changes mattered not with bass but with the high frequency, the bass was always nice I just wasn’t and still am not used to it and combine these factors with not being broke in at all and the fact that my old Speakers had a pretty shelved treble. 

Since then I worked tirelessly to tweak them and dial them in and set up the rake property and covered up some of the bright areas in my room with treatments on the floors and walls like the guys on here told me to do. 

I purchased a much warmer, richer sounding pair of speaker cables. The Cardas Clear Reflection that is sort of a combo of the Clears and the rich sounding Golden Reference but not as thick and slow and still a bit warmer than the Clears. 

I added XLR pins to the Pass Labs X350.5. This made a big difference and again speaks to my not being an expert. Forgot about this and Nelson laughed at me and sent me out a set. He said no wonder your not happy with your speakers these amps absolutely need these pins when running single ended and they really liked getting the jumper grounding pins :) and so did I :) 

i switched the power cable on my Pass Labs to a not so hot and up front sounding cable. 

I let them run in another couple hundred hours but even better I put some real nice volume into them during the day. I would come home and be like oh that’s a bit loud...

Moreover, like I stated these now have very roughly 350 hours on them and they are much better. I am told many times over they get better with break in the 600 - 700 hour range and keep getting better to a 1,000 but all my worlds here are to them now at the 350. 

All these changes have effected the sound and it has not been breakin alone in a vacuum. The nice burn in time on them have them settling in nicely though IMO. I like them so much better and am really enjoying them. To me they keep getting better but thats I am sure contributed to me getting used to them also.

i have a tube BAT Preamp on the way and P10 Conditioner as well and I was hoping that to land today per Fedex and as the tracking said it would but it’s getting late now. I’m hoping to keep really dialing my rig chasing after my own sound like we all do and trying to get it just like I like it.

After these adds will come a couple pairs of XLR IC’s but want too see where I am sound wise and where I need to go with them first.

Someone said they feel bad or sorry for me or something like that.

Please don’t feel sorry for me. I just got home, ordered some take out with my wife, listening to my Magico’s and life is good. I’m happy. Much more work still to do on my rig but I’m not one anyone should be feeling sorry for. It’s all good :) 

@steakster

Sorry but it is simple. Something that changes for weeks and possibly months is neither accurate nor high-fidelity. The term high-fidelity is about faithful reproduction of the source. Components that constantly drift and change in performance should be avoided if you care about performance at all. You are welcome to your finicky wonky products but that makes you no more a flat earther then the audiophile who seeks performance.

@fsmithjack

Sorry you bought such an expensive product that the seller has confirmed can’t produce sound with any consistency (for 600+ hours). You seemed to have struggled from the moment you hooked up these speakers instead of being able to enjoy them as soon as they were unboxed. Of course, if you enjoy these struggles and frustrations then that is good thing. You may refuse to believe it but it isn’t rocket science that there are indeed many products that work out of the box properly, consistently and for many years.

The reason for my suggesting you test your ears is because you are really struggling. You initially described the sound as giving you a headache. This is not a normal experience with a highly respected speaker like Magico.

Shardorn - these are Magico Dealers and a large groups of other Magico owners that have consistently expressed this. More importantly to me is my own ears regardless of what you may think.

I’ve heard about you from other members on here -  you are a self proclaimed geniune Audio expert which I’m sure is true but I certainly am no expert at all but I am learning.

I like to learn and then share but always within it being just my own opinion which should be taken always for just being that. My profession is not Audio but rather it’s my hobby and I enjoy it but I’m not much more than a novice with some experience. 

I think the main reason many of the Magico owners have emailed me directly rather than posting on here is to avoid the negative people.

Me I’m an optimist - always will be no matter how many amps - Speakers - Cables I buy or own. 

I certainly don’t need an audiologist or the like to enjoy this hobby even if I do make mistakes along the way it is all good. This hobby is to reduce stress not induce it.

I’ve have gotten so much positive feedback and help from other Audiogon members I would never let the negative affect me. I like the hobby and this site way too much for that! 

I buy most my stuff as demo or 2nd hand from other far flung parts of the country mostly so I dont get to try out in my rig before buying. This approach is bound to lead to some mistakes but I can’t afford new prices of the stuff I like own so it’s no problem. I just learn and move on. I try to get the best gear I can afford that is inline with what I like.

Even though I’m just a simple, humble novice that mostly buys my gear second hard even I can tell that Magico makes some super serious audio gear regardless of what a much experienced audiologist might think otherwise. Those Q serious speaker might be calling my name in future! 

I’ll never understand why some resort to name calling on Audiogon? Of that's right, we must act like one big clique...everyone must agree to the same thing. I've heard subtle changes with break in, but never night and day.