My experience with the Lyra Delos has been good and to put it the best way too revealing? So far my original vinyl sounds incredible, especially stuff from the Golden age of stereo. Amazing to say the least. However, newly remastered stuff sounds extremely overdone and in some cases unlistenable and I am talking about a lot of Classic reissues. Is this just the way it will be or will this cartridge still relax a little as I only have roughly 50 hours or so on it?
I understand the urge to find the one perfect cartridge for your system. Then you stop listening to the cartridge and enjoy the music. If the Delos distracts you with its high frequency energy then it is probably not the right cart for you. I have given up on finding the one right cart because I have found that my moods change too much. I love the Lyra house sound when I’m in the mood for high energy music. I recently sold my Delos for a used Atlas and found the later to have a more balanced but still high energy sound across the frequency spectrum. It gets all the information out of the groove. Also the image solidity and 3D soundstage improved dramatically, especially on the Mørch DP-8. On the other hand, when I’m in a different mood I turn to my other favorite cartridge, the Koetsu RSP on an FR-64S. That combination extracts a beautiful groove with PRaT! Both combos are amazing at what they do but do not sound the same. I like having the options. I would assume that this is why many of us have tables with more than one tonearm or in my case, easily swapable arms. -Karl
what you heard is what I heard in demo. the silver interconnects may have some influence. I really think that there is nothing wrong with the delos on this table. It is just not the sound I prefer. it is a very detailed sound. The table has a very accurate sound with a slight hint of warmth. the 1200g is very neutral sounding. The Stillpoints LPI really enhances focus, sometimes too much. soemtimes i like to listen with it, sometimes without it. The Lyra sounds better on the VPI. The Benz sounds better on the Technics. Its just that the benz is not a good tracking cartridge. at least not in my experience. It can be siblant but the things it does right I really like. It makes classical sound like the real thing. if you go to concerts you will know what I mean. The Lyra does very well with older recordings which makes it a difficult thing unless I want 2 cartridges for different things.
The headshells have made a significant difference in sound. some things sound better, some things do not. the heavier you go, the more bass and less air in upper treble. The stock headshell seems to be the best so far. The Lyra seems to need more effective mass, more weight, a heavier arm to sound its best imho. The benzs are more medium compliance and sound good. The ortofon cadenzas have lower compliance, but are heavier than the Lyra so they might work pretty well.
What have the various headshells that you have used contributed to the different setups. Have they been well made? Fit properly? Only you can tell; but do you think the pure silver ICs your using contribute to the tipped up sound?
I have thought from the beginning; when I heard it demo at Axpona 2016, that this table can and is a game changer.
I am going to take it a little slower in the changes that I make to the Technics, The one thing that stood out in that demo. I was the only person in the room. Stability of soundstage and images within was just outstanding. Helped make each instrument standout in 3D.
Can you comment on what the Stillpoint record weight contributes.
power cord is gutwire which was an improvement, I am using pure silver interconnects from table to phonostage, and phonostage to preamp. The stillpoints has its good points. It may be me just getting used to this table. I am not liking the delos on it in my setup. The benz ref s sounds fine.
I have used benz micro cartridges in the past and heard the delos at a friends house and was impressed. However, he has a zeta arm that may be better suited for this cartridge. I read on a thread that technics was using the delos on their 1200gae when they first released it. so i thought it was a match. it does not quite have 100 hours on it yet but I do not see it filling ou in the lower mids much. it is also very forward sounding on this table, that is something I am not used to as real live music does not sound that way and i attend a lot of concerts with symphony orchestras.
or maybe my system. I have small monitors and that might be the problem. I have small merlin monitors and the Lyra is just a little tipped towards the treble. Maybe a ortofon cadenza may be a better match
I have been following the various threads relating to the Technics 1200G. You are a prominent poster. I have no experience with the Delos cartridge, but have used ScanTech / Lyra cartridges since 1988. They need break in. After 100 hrs, they smooth out. I currently use a Kleos on my LP12.
Just wondering what your current setup of your Technics consists of.
power cord, IC from table to phonostage, The Stillpoint record weight. What has been beneficial; what has been a waste of time.
I am going to pull the trigger on a 1200G and listen to it as stock until it breaks in as early posters have recommended. Hoping that I can use a Dynavector 17D3 with it. It is a light cartridge; don’t know if one of the after market headshells will be needed.
1200G tonearm with stock headshell has an effective mass of 12g. Without the headshell, effective mass is approximately 4.5g. If you install your 15g Ortofon headshell, you'll have a tonearm which will be approaching 20g in effective mass. You should be able to make that work with Lyra. I don't see why you're having issues there.
Having said that, Lyra in general is an obnoxiously bright cartridge and the stock tonearm on the 1200G is just adequate, but nothing special.
You can try other tonearms, arm boards, and cartridges, but now you're investing significant money into the 1200G on top of the $4000 retail price.
There are better options such as a Gyro SE with an SME tonearm, or entry level SME tables like the Model 10.
Amusingly, the superiority of the SL1200 over a 6-figure t/t has been repeatedly touted in this thread with both tables bearing a cartridge not vastly dissimilar in spec to the Delos.
update: The longer i listen the more fatigue I get. I have tried the stock headshell, lh 6000 Ortofon, lh 4000 Ortofon. With each of the ortofons, I get terrible bass artifacts and when I use the stock headshell, that goes away but it is just too bright. I am thinking the Delos is a mistake with the 1200G table. It seems like the delos is a high energy cartridge that requires a very high mass arm to get the best out of it. think I will be selling it. Somebody will be getting a practically brand new cartridge for a lot less than retail. live and learn I guess. The headshells weigh almost 15 grams, 13 grams, and 7 grams. I doubt a 12 grams headshell will make much of a difference. I am wondering about the effective mass of the arm on the 1200g. they say 12 grams but I doubt it. I hooked up my scout with the Lyra and I did not get the resonance i did with the stock arm on the 1200G. I believe the effective mass of the 1200G is far less than 12 grams.
Actually what I have found with the Delos is it can be a little fussy with setup. I settled on the stock headshell with the 1200g and lyra screws and nylon washers. Sounds wonderful. It does not sound overly pronounced in the upper mids anymore. I was using the ortofon LH 6000 headshell and it seems pretty much made for the cadenza cartridge. maybe I will get one of those too. I was having a hard time getting the right screw compliment for that headshell. I was getting terrible resonances in the upper mids due to the screws not working in that headshell. It sounds great on the 1200G stock headshell with boston audio design mat and Stillpoints LPI.
I owned a Clavis for a few years before shearing off the stylus. Had it redone by Soundsmith but found it lost its magic. I traded for a Delos which I still have and like but I did prefer the pre-Soundsmith Clavis to the Delos. I felt it was more natural - less etched.
A few months ago I got the itch again and bought a Van den Hul Black Beauty Special X. To me and in my system, there is no comparison between the VDH and the Delos. The VDH has as much or more upper end extension without the etched sound of the Delos. And the VDH midrange is far richer than the leanness I hear from the Delos. By far the most impressive thing I hear from the VDH is its ability to bring the recording venue into your room. I've never heard a cartridge with the "air" the VDH Black Beauty presents.
This may not be a fair comparison. The VDH Black Beauty SPX is over twice the price of the Delos. I Don't by any means want to trash the Delos. At its price point it digs a lot of music from vinyl.
I differ with some who think the Delos has a tipped up top end. I think it's top end extension is its strong point. Rather what I hear is an exaggeration in the upper mid range which gives horns and strings the "etched" sound many don't care for. In a "soft" system this may be additive but in a neutral or SS system it just sounds bright.
Regarding the difference you hear between old originals and reissues, stay away from any reissue label that does not use the original master tapes. With the the change in EU copyright law there is a lot of trash coming out of Europe which claims to be audiophile on 180 gm vinyl. In reality most of that stuff is "mastered" from a cd. Stick with labels like Pure Pleasure, the newer MFSLs, and Analog Productions. To my ear Chad at Analog productions is doing the best job of anyone with reissues. He is very pricey but his mastering is superb.
It goes to show you how subjective this hobby is. I can't believe somebody would prefer the black to the Delos. I had them both in my system at same time and in my mind there was no comparison. I do agree with the poster that says the helicon is more accurate than the Delos. Interestingly enough I found the Deloz to have a bit of a upper bass warmth that the helicon didn't so I went with the helicon. I tried a high-level Benz and found it to be much to thicken syrupy for my tastes.
By the way, I had a decent Naim CDP for sometime. While it did give some idea about the rest of the system’s voicing, the difference in dynamics, resolution and transparency that a quality analog rig (with a good phonostage) brings in even with a lowly 103r is so tremendous that I stopped making any comparison. I still agree that for measuring speed stability and transient response a good digital rig can come in handy, except that you may not know which element of the analog rig is at fault.
I recommend using your digital rig for this purpose. Digital has given us several gifts - rock solid "speed stability" along with the fact it's repeatable - no tracking force, VTA/SRA, and azimuth to doubt yourself over.
While I get your point, a digital source will not allow me judge the tonality of my TT, tonearm, phonostage and tonearm cable combination. Whether I am judging a turntable, cartridge, tonearm, phonostage or tonearm cable, a 103r gives me a great baseline of where things are. I will not use a Delos to do that simply because it is voiced. I have heard a Linn Kandid and that sounded very good.
I use a basic Denon 103r for checking the tone and timbre of my system.
If my system sounds fine (tonally balanced and musically right) with the
103/103r then I proceed to change carts or cables to take it to the
next level. In that respect the Delos has always sounded bright and thin
in my system where the 103r sounds nice and balanced. Denon does not
have the refinement and outright resolution of the Delos but in terms of
getting a studio like tone, it does the job very well.
Having
said that I like the Delos when playing classical music. Its dynamics
standout and that makes it exciting for the classical.
It's good to have a stable, neutral reference.
I recommend using your digital rig for this purpose. Digital has given us several gifts - rock solid "speed stability" along with the fact it's repeatable - no tracking force, VTA/SRA, and azimuth to doubt yourself over.
Once you get to know your digital rig I think it's the quickest, most dependable means of assessing the overall tonality of your analog rig.
The added benefit (assuming that your digital source is reasonably competent) is that you'll voice your system to not favor one source over the other. Considering the object is to be able to enjoy as many of your recordings as possible, this is not a trivial point - at least to me.
I am also noticing that the Delos likes silver wiring. I installed some
silver headshell wire and it has made a difference for the better. To
these ears at least.
Silver wire gets a bad rap - blame the messenger and all that.
I am also noticing that the Delos likes silver wiring. I installed some silver headshell wire and it has made a difference for the better. To these ears at least
I use a basic Denon 103r for checking the tone and timbre of my system. If my system sounds fine (tonally balanced and musically right) with the 103/103r then I proceed to change carts or cables to take it to the next level. In that respect the Delos has always sounded bright and thin in my system where the 103r sounds nice and balanced. Denon does not have the refinement and outright resolution of the Delos but in terms of getting a studio like tone, it does the job very well.
Having said that I like the Delos when playing classical music. Its dynamics standout and that makes it exciting for the classical.
J Carr has voiced the Delos to have a slightly bright top end to match more warm systems that need some detail.
Thank you for this. It's the whole point I think. In this environment, the Delos is pretty tough to beat.
Everything is system dependent. I've had cartridges in my current setup that sound bright and I've managed that with a cable swap or putting the grilles back on my Harbeths or swapping a tube.
We are just adjusting our tone controls that we no longer have.
Anyone who dislikes the RF peak is at liberty to choose loading values aimed at flattening it as per JCs supplied data.
I also think ancillaries have a strong influence on the final result eg choice of phonostage and room acoustics. Unless those are beyond criticism criticising cartridges is just shooting in the dark ;)
I am using JPS Labd Superconductor from amp to preamp, silver wiring from turntable to preamp to phono preamp and Cardas golden reference from amp to merlins as advised by the late Bobby Palkovic.
The only thing I changed were the screws. I put the longer ones in. I do not thing it was that. I just think it is still running in. It sounds fabulous to say the least.
Lyra and other MCs don’t dig up more detail. They just over exaggerate what other cartridges don’t. It’s false information. But to a casual listener, it may seem like a revelation.
Them’s fightin’ words. Seriously however, where are you located? I’d love to demonstrate a well set up system to you.
Obsession with false detail, soundstaging and PRaT are pet peeves of mine.
Tonality and correct timbre are two of my primary acceptance criteria in a musical reproduction system. If you really get the timbre right, the rest will follow, but most individuals put the cart before the horse, and as a result, they’re constantly tweaking and replacing components.
I was once at a customer’s when another respected designer was also visiting. I was dialing in the azimuth on the customer’s turntable when he commented "the flute is in the right position in the soundstage" (words to that effect). It sounded wrong to me and I commented: "yes, but does it sound more like a flute or less like a flute?
In a well balanced system, I guarantee you'll hear nuances that have you completely rethinking a musical work’s interpretation and this will have nothing to do with false detail.
Lyra and other MCs don't dig up more detail. They just over exaggerate what other cartridges don't. It's false information. But to a casual listener, it may seem like a revelation.
Ask yourself whether you're in love with a rising top end, common to MC cartridges, or with a truly extended hf response. Also, if lowest tip mass is paramount, we should all be listening to MI or induced magnet types.
Hi @lewm,
Well, it's all a balancing act. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
Oh My gosh. Something just happened. This is quite amazing. Now everything sounds amazing. The lower mids just filled in appropriately. Just like that. By far the best cartridge I have ever heard.
Ask yourself whether you're in love with a rising top end, common to MC cartridges, or with a truly extended hf response. Also, if lowest tip mass is paramount, we should all be listening to MI or induced magnet types.
Interestingly the Lyra phono cable is all copper with low cap. Its all a balance, but frankly if you are happy missing information at the vinyl playback stage with a warm or rolled off cartridge, you will never get it back.
I personally have not heard many cartridges with this kind of extension
in my life. Cartridges like this can really dig so much out of older
original issue recordings. Its quite amazing. I honestly cannot see
myself wanting to listen to my living stereos, mercurys, deccas,
columbias, etc. with anything but this cartridge.
Fast right-hand runs on a piano have jaw-dropping articulation. Call me a believer as far as the effects of reduced tip mass are concerned.
When I listen to the Lyra, it makes me think that many recent recordings, and recent reissues(not all) are purposely remastered somewhat hot knowing that most cartridges are in fact rolled off. I personally have not heard many cartridges with this kind of extension in my life. Cartridges like this can really dig so much out of older original issue recordings. Its quite amazing. I honestly cannot see myself wanting to listen to my living stereos, mercurys, deccas, columbias, etc. with anything but this cartridge. I could not fully appreciate what was on these records with my older cartridges, mainly benz like I can with this one. The benz can sound very pleasing with orchestral reissues but just cannot track like this one. I have never heard a cartridge track like this one ever. The other cartridge that was close was a Denon.
In general, I try to stay out of these “which is best” conversations. Of course, this ends up being a “horses for courses” sort of discussion, and folks will gravitate all over the spectrum in their cartridge selection.
To the original poster’s comment - I agree with you that a well-balanced system should allow you to play and enjoy the majority of your recordings. The horrid ones? Well, there’s not much you can do about those but in general that should be only about 10-20% of your collection.
Cartridges and speakers are the biggest challenge to the audio engineer. Both are electro-mechanical devices, and the challenges in designing a linear motor as well as moving parts with minimal resonance is no small feat.
The crafty designer will balance out the errors he can’t correct to result in a product that reproduces a coherent musical whole - "hiding" the errors where they are most consonant. This is as much art as science and hence the variability in what you hear, and the broad range of preferences.
One thing I encourage my customers to do is to voice the tonality of their analog front end to be similar to their digital rig - this, assuming that they have a general liking of their digital playback. For all of the pros & cons of analog vs. digital, the basic tonality of a good analog setup and a good digital setup should be similar.
In other words, if your system is too hot (both analog and digital), you’d be well advised to fix the brightness somewhere other than at your cartridge. You want to enjoy all of your recordings after all, and if you compensate too heavily on dialing in your analog front end (at the expense of your digital), you may never listen to your digital.
Now, not everyone can fix all elements in their system at once, and if you think of a cartridge as a "consumable", then an alternate strategy (in this example) might be to optimize your analog front end with a rolled off cartridge, or alternatively one with a bit of bass emphasis. As long as you’re aware of what you’re doing, you’ll keep track of this and return to address it later, as time and budget permit.
With respect to Lyra, if a customer doesn’t have a bias against silver cabling, they’re a good bet to like a Lyra. All too frequently, the messenger (silver, Lyra) is blamed for problems elsewhere, and the person who is fine with silver, very likely has a system with well-behaved upper frequency response.
One warning sign for me is the customer who considers his analog front end to have great PRaT. I’ve found that many of these systems are much like systems people claim to be imaging champs - having an emphasis in the presence zone (2-4K) which renders the leading edge of notes unnaturally (harsh). Pairing one of these turntables/tonearms with a cartridge with extended upper frequencies is a recipe for misery. Note that not all turntables which convey rhythm correctly follow this design approach. I’d like to think that my Galibier turntables are both balanced and have good PRaT.
There was a time when I was of the opinion that Lyras were bright cartridges. More accurately stated, I felt them to be slightly deficient in the mid and upper bass. This "brightness" many reported in earlier generations was more of a perception thing (perception counts, of course) in the sense that a slight deficiency in the bass registers draws the listener’s attention to the upper frequencies in the same way that a mini-monitor does.
I call this shift in attention, a shift in the "sonic center of gravity". Around the introduction of the Titan cartridges, this changed and Lyra began to compliment what I always considered the best top end in the business with superb balance in the lower frequencies.
Contrast this with another very fine brand - Dynavector - which has a characteristic mid to upper bass bump that lends a bit of power and impact - a Technicolor or "va-va-voom" sort of presentation. It’s a bit of a hyper-real effect but Dynavectors still have an uncanny way of paying respect to the nuances in the recording.
This mid/upper bass emphasis (Dynavector) shifts the sonic center of gravity downward, and the fellow with a bright system (who doesn’t want to address it elsewhere) would be advised toward this sort of cartridge, or alternatively to a cartridge with varying degrees of upper frequency roll-off (Koetsu, Benz, and possibly Ortofon).
The obvious can’t be overstated: setup counts. I can’t tell you how many substandard setups I’ve encountered where the owner blamed his cartridge, tonearm, or turntable, which is one reason I started my traveling setup road show.
If you don’t like a new cartridge after 10 hours of burn-in (assuming your setup is good), you’re not going to like it. Spend time on your setup, but don’t torture yourself for 100 hours (300 record sides) if it’s not working for you.
My neighbor, who sold the Benz LPS in order originally to buy ZYX UNIverse(s) (he had 3 in rapid succession), now has a Lyra Etna. I must go listen to it, not that I would ever spend that much.
@lewm - you need to hear your neighbor’s rig. I set up his Etna SL last month. I’m sorry I missed you, but it was a quick visit.
We were listening to Keith Jarret’s Koln concert and at the end of the first side, we looked at each other with tears in our eyes. There’s no more of that analytical presentation people talk about when they reference Lyras - yet further proof (to me) that the musicality vs. accuracy argument is a fallacious one.
BTW, the Delos is a big slice of the Etna - much more than I would have expected. Of course, the Kelos and Etna are more refined, but you get much more than a taste of Lyra in the "lowly" Delos.
Lest I forget - a disclaimer: I carry Lyra cartridges (along with several other fine brands), so please don’t consider this as anything more than one person’s point of view about cartridges in general, and Lyras in particular.
I never felt it was the giant killer people here thought it was. It's nice, but I did not find it a musical as the Delos.
I think this is where system dependencies and preferences alter opinion. I find the richer midrange and overall bigger soundstage of the ART 9 makes classical listening more musical than the Delos. I like the Delos more for small group jazz and featured vocalists. In that regard it earns its higher price tag.
I do think the ART 9 @ $ 999 is worth forum praise and I really like it due to its balance sound, but I also disagree that it blows away carts twice its price. People get carried away sometimes.
The ART 9 is not as dynamic as the Delos, you might find it a little lacking on Classical, I did. But the ART 9 is a pretty balanced cart overall. I bought it based on the love it gets on this forum but for me I never felt it was the giant killer people here thought it was. It's nice, but I did not find it a musical as the Delos.
I would play witht he Delos some more, it really can benefit from tweaking VTA and loading and setting the VTF at 1.72g. When it is set up right it should not sound shrill or harsh at all.
I use two MC carts with my Technics 1200G, the Delos which I’ve had for about 3 years, and an AT ART 9. I have MM carts as well, but I haven’t tried them yet with the Technics. No reason for not, but I haven’t yet.
The Delos is more revealing, cleaner and tighter sounding, but compared to the ART 9, it is brighter. I’ve sort of stopped using the Delos as the ART9 does such a nicer job with midrange, channel separation, and macro level weight. It is not warm, but more musical. Add that it is half the price of the Delos makes it a keeper for sure. If you want to evaluate a system change, the Delos may be the better "reporter".
The Delos can be a great sounding cart you just need to make sure you have the loading right, it is sensitive to the cabling (not expense or expensive cabling but capacitance) . As was mentioned try 250-500 ohms. Mine is at 330 Ohms and sounds very big and expansive, mids and lows are weighty and authoritative. Upper mids and highs are very clear but not too bright. It's a revealing cart for sure. I listen to a lot of both new music as well as old 50's and 60's I don't think it plays favorites on recordings. It's a colored cart for sure, but most are, it's just definitely not a soft sounding or overly warm sounding cart.
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