I am using JPS Labd Superconductor from amp to preamp, silver wiring from turntable to preamp to phono preamp and Cardas golden reference from amp to merlins as advised by the late Bobby Palkovic. |
You may have altered the alignment slightly when you changed the screws. It does not take much sometimes |
Anyone who dislikes the RF peak is at liberty to choose loading values aimed at flattening it as per JCs supplied data.
I also think ancillaries have a strong influence on the final result eg choice of phonostage and room acoustics. Unless those are beyond criticism criticising cartridges is just shooting in the dark ;) |
J Carr has voiced the Delos to have a slightly bright top end to match more warm systems that need some detail. Thank you for this. It's the whole point I think. In this environment, the Delos is pretty tough to beat. Everything is system dependent. I've had cartridges in my current setup that sound bright and I've managed that with a cable swap or putting the grilles back on my Harbeths or swapping a tube. We are just adjusting our tone controls that we no longer have. |
I use a basic Denon 103r for checking the tone and timbre of my system. If my system sounds fine (tonally balanced and musically right) with the 103/103r then I proceed to change carts or cables to take it to the next level. In that respect the Delos has always sounded bright and thin in my system where the 103r sounds nice and balanced. Denon does not have the refinement and outright resolution of the Delos but in terms of getting a studio like tone, it does the job very well.
Having said that I like the Delos when playing classical music. Its dynamics standout and that makes it exciting for the classical. |
I am also noticing that the Delos likes silver wiring. I installed some silver headshell wire and it has made a difference for the better. To these ears at least |
I use a basic Denon 103r for checking the tone and timbre of my system.
If my system sounds fine (tonally balanced and musically right) with the
103/103r then I proceed to change carts or cables to take it to the
next level. In that respect the Delos has always sounded bright and thin
in my system where the 103r sounds nice and balanced. Denon does not
have the refinement and outright resolution of the Delos but in terms of
getting a studio like tone, it does the job very well.
Having
said that I like the Delos when playing classical music. Its dynamics
standout and that makes it exciting for the classical.
It's good to have a stable, neutral reference. I recommend using your digital rig for this purpose. Digital has given us several gifts - rock solid "speed stability" along with the fact it's repeatable - no tracking force, VTA/SRA, and azimuth to doubt yourself over. Once you get to know your digital rig I think it's the quickest, most dependable means of assessing the overall tonality of your analog rig. The added benefit (assuming that your digital source is reasonably competent) is that you'll voice your system to not favor one source over the other. Considering the object is to be able to enjoy as many of your recordings as possible, this is not a trivial point - at least to me.
I am also noticing that the Delos likes silver wiring. I installed some
silver headshell wire and it has made a difference for the better. To
these ears at least. Silver wire gets a bad rap - blame the messenger and all that. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier Design |
I recommend using your digital rig for this purpose. Digital has given us several gifts - rock solid "speed stability" along with the fact it's repeatable - no tracking force, VTA/SRA, and azimuth to doubt yourself over.
While I get your point, a digital source will not allow me judge the tonality of my TT, tonearm, phonostage and tonearm cable combination. Whether I am judging a turntable, cartridge, tonearm, phonostage or tonearm cable, a 103r gives me a great baseline of where things are. I will not use a Delos to do that simply because it is voiced. I have heard a Linn Kandid and that sounded very good. |
By the way, I had a decent Naim CDP for sometime. While it did give some idea about the rest of the system’s voicing, the difference in dynamics, resolution and transparency that a quality analog rig (with a good phonostage) brings in even with a lowly 103r is so tremendous that I stopped making any comparison. I still agree that for measuring speed stability and transient response a good digital rig can come in handy, except that you may not know which element of the analog rig is at fault. |
Indeed, we listen to vinyl for a reason, but I didn't have to tell you that ;-)
Digital can be useful for raw frequency response comparisons, but of course, the harmonic structure of most digital and vinyl is worlds apart.
With a bit of familiarization, you can make some mental translations which can sometimes be helpful in diagnosis.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design
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It goes to show you how subjective this hobby is. I can't believe somebody would prefer the black to the Delos. I had them both in my system at same time and in my mind there was no comparison. I do agree with the poster that says the helicon is more accurate than the Delos. Interestingly enough I found the Deloz to have a bit of a upper bass warmth that the helicon didn't so I went with the helicon. I tried a high-level Benz and found it to be much to thicken syrupy for my tastes. |
@tzh21y @rossb
I owned a Clavis for a few years before shearing off the stylus. Had it redone by Soundsmith but found it lost its magic. I traded for a Delos which I still have and like but I did prefer the pre-Soundsmith Clavis to the Delos. I felt it was more natural - less etched.
A few months ago I got the itch again and bought a Van den Hul Black Beauty Special X. To me and in my system, there is no comparison between the VDH and the Delos. The VDH has as much or more upper end extension without the etched sound of the Delos. And the VDH midrange is far richer than the leanness I hear from the Delos. By far the most impressive thing I hear from the VDH is its ability to bring the recording venue into your room. I've never heard a cartridge with the "air" the VDH Black Beauty presents.
This may not be a fair comparison. The VDH Black Beauty SPX is over twice the price of the Delos. I Don't by any means want to trash the Delos. At its price point it digs a lot of music from vinyl.
I differ with some who think the Delos has a tipped up top end. I think it's top end extension is its strong point. Rather what I hear is an exaggeration in the upper mid range which gives horns and strings the "etched" sound many don't care for. In a "soft" system this may be additive but in a neutral or SS system it just sounds bright.
Regarding the difference you hear between old originals and reissues, stay away from any reissue label that does not use the original master tapes. With the the change in EU copyright law there is a lot of trash coming out of Europe which claims to be audiophile on 180 gm vinyl. In reality most of that stuff is "mastered" from a cd. Stick with labels like Pure Pleasure, the newer MFSLs, and Analog Productions. To my ear Chad at Analog productions is doing the best job of anyone with reissues. He is very pricey but his mastering is superb.
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Actually what I have found with the Delos is it can be a little fussy with setup. I settled on the stock headshell with the 1200g and lyra screws and nylon washers. Sounds wonderful. It does not sound overly pronounced in the upper mids anymore. I was using the ortofon LH 6000 headshell and it seems pretty much made for the cadenza cartridge. maybe I will get one of those too. I was having a hard time getting the right screw compliment for that headshell. I was getting terrible resonances in the upper mids due to the screws not working in that headshell. It sounds great on the 1200G stock headshell with boston audio design mat and Stillpoints LPI. |
I may try a Jelco (sumiko hs12 variant) as well |
update: The longer i listen the more fatigue I get. I have tried the stock headshell, lh 6000 Ortofon, lh 4000 Ortofon. With each of the ortofons, I get terrible bass artifacts and when I use the stock headshell, that goes away but it is just too bright. I am thinking the Delos is a mistake with the 1200G table. It seems like the delos is a high energy cartridge that requires a very high mass arm to get the best out of it. think I will be selling it. Somebody will be getting a practically brand new cartridge for a lot less than retail. live and learn I guess. The headshells weigh almost 15 grams, 13 grams, and 7 grams. I doubt a 12 grams headshell will make much of a difference. I am wondering about the effective mass of the arm on the 1200g. they say 12 grams but I doubt it. I hooked up my scout with the Lyra and I did not get the resonance i did with the stock arm on the 1200G. I believe the effective mass of the 1200G is far less than 12 grams. |
@tzh21y But not to worry, tomorrow it will be the best cartridge ever again. |
Amusingly, the superiority of the SL1200 over a 6-figure t/t has been repeatedly touted in this thread with both tables bearing a cartridge not vastly dissimilar in spec to the Delos.
Go on. Blame the cartridge... ;)
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1200G tonearm with stock headshell has an effective mass of 12g. Without the headshell, effective mass is approximately 4.5g. If you install your 15g Ortofon headshell, you'll have a tonearm which will be approaching 20g in effective mass. You should be able to make that work with Lyra. I don't see why you're having issues there.
Having said that, Lyra in general is an obnoxiously bright cartridge and the stock tonearm on the 1200G is just adequate, but nothing special.
You can try other tonearms, arm boards, and cartridges, but now you're investing significant money into the 1200G on top of the $4000 retail price.
There are better options such as a Gyro SE with an SME tonearm, or entry level SME tables like the Model 10. |
not blaming the cartridge. just do not think it is a good match for the arm. oh well, maybe tomorrow it will sound better. lol |
tzh21y,
I have been following the various threads relating to the Technics 1200G. You are a prominent poster. I have no experience with the Delos cartridge, but have used ScanTech / Lyra cartridges since 1988. They need break in. After 100 hrs, they smooth out. I currently use a Kleos on my LP12.
Just wondering what your current setup of your Technics consists of.
power cord, IC from table to phonostage, The Stillpoint record weight. What has been beneficial; what has been a waste of time.
I am going to pull the trigger on a 1200G and listen to it as stock until it breaks in as early posters have recommended. Hoping that I can use a Dynavector 17D3 with it. It is a light cartridge; don’t know if one of the after market headshells will be needed.
Any thoughts would be appreciated |
or maybe my system. I have small monitors and that might be the problem. I have small merlin monitors and the Lyra is just a little tipped towards the treble. Maybe a ortofon cadenza may be a better match
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I have used benz micro cartridges in the past and heard the delos at a friends house and was impressed. However, he has a zeta arm that may be better suited for this cartridge. I read on a thread that technics was using the delos on their 1200gae when they first released it. so i thought it was a match. it does not quite have 100 hours on it yet but I do not see it filling ou in the lower mids much. it is also very forward sounding on this table, that is something I am not used to as real live music does not sound that way and i attend a lot of concerts with symphony orchestras. |
power cord is gutwire which was an improvement, I am using pure silver interconnects from table to phonostage, and phonostage to preamp. The stillpoints has its good points. It may be me just getting used to this table. I am not liking the delos on it in my setup. The benz ref s sounds fine. |
I honestly think its a great table, the delos is just not my cup of tea. |
tzh21y,
What have the various headshells that you have used contributed to the different setups. Have they been well made? Fit properly? Only you can tell; but do you think the pure silver ICs your using contribute to the tipped up sound?
I have thought from the beginning; when I heard it demo at Axpona 2016, that this table can and is a game changer.
I am going to take it a little slower in the changes that I make to the Technics, The one thing that stood out in that demo. I was the only person in the room. Stability of soundstage and images within was just outstanding. Helped make each instrument standout in 3D.
Can you comment on what the Stillpoint record weight contributes.
Appreciate your thoughts.
nkonor |
what you heard is what I heard in demo. the silver interconnects may have some influence. I really think that there is nothing wrong with the delos on this table. It is just not the sound I prefer. it is a very detailed sound. The table has a very accurate sound with a slight hint of warmth. the 1200g is very neutral sounding. The Stillpoints LPI really enhances focus, sometimes too much. soemtimes i like to listen with it, sometimes without it. The Lyra sounds better on the VPI. The Benz sounds better on the Technics. Its just that the benz is not a good tracking cartridge. at least not in my experience. It can be siblant but the things it does right I really like. It makes classical sound like the real thing. if you go to concerts you will know what I mean. The Lyra does very well with older recordings which makes it a difficult thing unless I want 2 cartridges for different things.
The headshells have made a significant difference in sound. some things sound better, some things do not. the heavier you go, the more bass and less air in upper treble. The stock headshell seems to be the best so far. The Lyra seems to need more effective mass, more weight, a heavier arm to sound its best imho. The benzs are more medium compliance and sound good. The ortofon cadenzas have lower compliance, but are heavier than the Lyra so they might work pretty well. |
I understand the urge to find the one perfect cartridge for your system. Then you stop listening to the cartridge and enjoy the music. If the Delos distracts you with its high frequency energy then it is probably not the right cart for you. I have given up on finding the one right cart because I have found that my moods change too much. I love the Lyra house sound when I’m in the mood for high energy music. I recently sold my Delos for a used Atlas and found the later to have a more balanced but still high energy sound across the frequency spectrum. It gets all the information out of the groove. Also the image solidity and 3D soundstage improved dramatically, especially on the Mørch DP-8. On the other hand, when I’m in a different mood I turn to my other favorite cartridge, the Koetsu RSP on an FR-64S. That combination extracts a beautiful groove with PRaT! Both combos are amazing at what they do but do not sound the same. I like having the options. I would assume that this is why many of us have tables with more than one tonearm or in my case, easily swapable arms.
-Karl |
@tzh21y I hear ya. I sold my Delos with 80 hours on it for only $950. The boosted treble just didn't do it for me. And I'm running OCC copper ICs. |
I have a great dealer that I purchased the table from. He said he would let me hear a ortofon cadenza bronze on my system to see if it has better synergy. He thinks its not totally run in yet. well how long...... lol. The lyra makes me want to back my chair up. somewhat shouty. on older records, not at all. Go figure |
It sounds like the Delos is definitely not working for you, so time to move it on. While lots of people love it, it's not for everyone.
The Cadenza Bronze should be a much more neutral cartridge than the Delos. I had a Cadenza Black and preferred it to the Delos, and it was the best tracking cartridge I have ever used. It can, however, be a little bland on some arms. The Bronze is said to be a bit warmer so may work well.
Another cartridge to consider around the same price is the Shelter 501 Mk III. This is a very balanced and musical cartridge. I preferred this to the Cadenza Black and some much more expensive cartridges, and could easily live with this as my only cartridge.
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I am finding that there is a learning curve with this table. The VTA increments have thrown me off somewhat. The Delos seems to be very fussy with VTA. Even a minute increase or decrease effects sound a lot. It is sounding pretty good right now. i know, I go back and forth, learning this table and cartridge. |
Update. The Delos is sounding pretty good. settling down. I still do not think it should take this long, borderline ridiculous. One must have a lot of patience for this cartridge unless its just my copy. not sure most people want shrill for 150 hours from their new cartridge. It does sound good now but geez. |
Final verdict:
I am keeping the Delos. It sounds incredible all of a sudden. Wow. this one took a while but I am happy. Maybe it was partially the table still breaking in but wow. sounds incredible. |
Don't worry, it will suck tomorrow. |
Dear Tzh21y,
Consider the possibilty that optimal operating conditions suffer from deviation i.e. although many folk are happy to regulate t to 22 degrees C, less attention is paid to humidity. With any cart, the difference between low & high H is like chalk & cheese.
Kind regards,
Bill |
I find it difficult to accept the claim that JC engineered the Delos to sound "bright". In fact in another thread he states he was prioritising dynamics, resolution and musical flow. I didn't see the word " brught" being mentioned.
Further to this, it could be argued that most enthusiasts use SS amps rather than tube. Even the most "tubey" SS amps are nowhere near as "warm" as valves IME so that would be unhelpful if this was indeed the designers intent.
Even at extremely low humidity the Delos doesn't sound unnaturally bright (speaking in my capacity as Stat user).
It does indeed sound truthful IMO.
I do not appreciate over-bright systems or unnatural/exaggerated sibilants.
For me, the Delos was exemplary from day 1, even during burn-in.
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(Apologies for the android phone keypad keyclick errors eg "bright" emerges as "brught" ;) |
I may have been a combination of the table that is new and the Delos as well being new. Crazy... sounds just great. I am not sure, given the amount of time it took I would recommend it to somebody who puts 100 hours on a cartridge in 6 months. they would get frustrated. Patience is a virtue they say. Its sound just as good as the Ortofon bronze now. Different but as good at least as the bronze. The thing is I heard a bronze with 10 hours on it and it sounded great already. |
Update: moved on from Stillpoints LP1 and I am currently using the Orsonic DS-200g disc stablizer. works great wth the 1200G. I am going back and forth with mats between Boston Audio Design mat and Funk Firm. I am now starting to thing that the Funk Firm with the Orsonic is just incredible. Just sayin..... |
tzh21y,
Happy that you’re still experimenting with your TT. I was at Axpona on Saturday. In the Technics room, they were trying the MoFo record weight.
I meet Ralph Karsten and Tri Mai. I did order a SL1200G and had it sent to them. Tri has finished my Triplanar arm and I think Ralph needs me to send my Lyra Kleos. He should have the modded Technics done soon.
I can hardly wait to get it in my system. I still think it will be a giant killer. |
I find I must amend my prior post and emphatically agree with those who have reminded us of the importance of matching cartridges to tonearms. Since my prior post I have acquired and had a total rehab done on a Garrard 301. I mounted an Ortofon TA-110 and installed my Delos. Previously I had the Delos on my VPI HW19 with ET II arm. On the VPI/ET rig I found the Delos slightly bright and etched. On my Garrard/Ortofon rig it is a completely different cartridge. Still very extended but with a much richer midrange and far greater sense of air and space. Gone is the brightness.
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That Funk Firm mat is nothing more than PVC foam sheet. Available at any hardware store or sign store for pennies. And obviously comes in the same colors Funk Firm uses.
When it comes to plastic mats, I like acrylic better. Any used laserdisc can be used.
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I like acrylic better too. The funk firm is the right height at the moment. If I could find a good acrylic mat I would snap it up.
Nkonor- you are right, it is |
tzh21y,
We will see / hear soon. I have packed the Kleos and will ship to Ralph tomorrow.
tzh, have you looked at the Ortofon acrylic mat? That’s what I will have on the modded Technics |
I also will use the HRS , ADL-B record weight. Technics Rep. told me 2lb max. |
the project puck is decent. I am enjoying the Orsonic clamp. it seems to like my setup. |
Nkonor - i hope your kleos does not take as long to run in as the delos. it was really frustrating to say the least but it sounds great now. Don't give up on it. |
The boston audio design mat is great as and the Funk firm is ok as well. the funk firm is a little thicker so it allows more VTA adjustablility. I wish the Boston audio mat was a little thicker for the Lyra. |
i ordered a Delos and Phenomena - Nova to run with my Basis 1400
will let you know how it sounds....vs the Grado Ref Sonata 2
last time I heard this cartridge was on a Bardo with factory arm and it was quite well balanced..... |
