Luxman PD121A - PD441

The PD441 is vastly superior to the 121A - better built, heavier platter and better motor drive. I would get that and then find a good tonearm.

What Dover said, but I do think there is a single tonearm variant of the PD441; I don't know the alphanumeric designation for it, but it might be a bit cheaper if you can find one.  In fact, if you can find either the PD441 or the single tonearm version, verify its condition (because these TTs are now about 40 years old), then if condition is known to be excellent, jump on it.

I think PD-441 is a single tonearm version of PD-444

@lewrn

The 441 is the single arm version of the 444

As nice as the 444 looks I have no need or even space for such a monster haha

@dover I really like the look of the straight arms seiki made. A bit more expensive than the J arms/ A lot of the 121 come with the SME for some reason. I am not knowledgeable enough to speculate on technicalities but merely think thats its a good arm and looks nice??

Anu suggestions?

And are they easy to fit?? I have never had a player where I had to add an arm etc so dont know anything about the process itself. Especially on the luxman. 

Welcome to the forum, what a nice decision to need to make!

I helped my friend select and assemble a Luxman PD444 with a pair (long and short) of Micro Seiki 505 arms. He went for silver coated wiring versions.

I have great admiration for the technologies, features, and build quality of both the Luxman TT and the Micro Seiki arms.

Like me he has a small collection of Stereo and Mono cartridges pre-mounted on removable headshells. The arm’s adjustability make it easy to change quickly and accurately,

Are you sure you cannot find the extra width to fit the 444 instead of the 441?

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11900

Unlike my wide and deeper JVC Victor, It is slim and elegant looking,

and you can play with the dust cover up, or lift it fully off as my friend does and as I MUST do with my non-hinged, non-attached JVC Victor

Think long, I just changed from this

to this which gave me 3 removable headshells

Having both Stereo and Mono ready to go back and forth in seconds during a listening session is a real treat, and you can instantly compare two cartridges already in the groove, simply change the TT’s A/B switch (and any variation of phono or sut setting) (possibly also a volume adjustment needed to compare).

btw, the arm on the right is a JVC Victor 7082, I highly recommend it, and the common problem is easily fixed

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/12014

The arm in the middle/back is Acos Lustre GST-801, awesome choice! I got it with help here, it is a 9" arm, the 9" version of my right side JVC 7082 is UA-7045. My left side arm is nothing special, except it's short counterweight length due to use of heavier Titanium.

@elliottbnewcombjr 

Damn! thats some USS Enterprise deck right there hahah

Really dont have the space to swing a cat currently. So no 444 for me

What do you think of the 505MKII j arms?? ANd do they take a standard SME headshell?

All new to me

@chridabs 

The Micro Seiki arms are very nicely made, and setup is very easy with them.

With the 505 series there are S shaped arms that use standard SME headshell fittings. The straight arm versions have a fixed headshell, but you can swap out the arm-tube/headshell which is removable via a connector at the pillar end.

The 505mkiii is a low mass arm, the rest of the series are medium.

You can buy 441 armboards here

https://www.audiogears.it/category.php~idx~~~231~~LUXMAN+TONEARMS+BASES~.html

@dover 

Do all the Seiki 505s use the din to rca connectors?

And is the MK3 a good purchase in terms of options for carts in your opinion? The 441 come with an TP-MT mount. The 505 MKIII should fit correct? Although it looks a little chunkier than the J arm one. Uggh Its so hard to find info on this arm!

Again, pretty new to all this stuff. Learning as I go. So dont want to make a major mistake in buying the wrong thing. 

Very much appreciated 

Do all the Seiki 505s use the din to rca connectors?

As far as I know yes.

And is the MK3 a good purchase in terms of options for carts in your opinion?

I had one and it was great, even though low mass Gallibrier demoed a 505mkIII with a low compliance Denon 103 at a show and it was fine.

The only thing to be wary of is that this model is less common and spare arm tubes are hard to find. Japan auction sites are best here. The mkII and mkIII arm tubes are not compatible.

The 441 come with an TP-MT mount. The 505 MKIII should fit correct? 

Yes.

@dover 

Very much appreciate this info!

Any suggestions besides the Denon for an all round good cart for this arm?? If there is such a thing at a none crazy amount of money. 

And is there a place where all the arm boards can be seen with hole dimensions? I have been looking but cant seem to find any.

So if i buy a din to rca cable I imagine the cable quality will be a major factor on sound?

@chridabs 

Yes - I have been running an old Audio Technica AT33 whilst my Van den hul Calibri XGW is off for service - it has really surprised me. AT33E ( elliptical ) or AT33PTGII ( micro ridge styli ) are great bang for the buck - better than the slightly more expensive OC9 series. They would be a better match than the Denon 103.

If you want high output - Soundsmith and Grado are great options.

Yes the old micro cables can be bettered at modest cost - better quality connectors and cable today. Get your cartridge choice first - if you buy a moving magnet you will want a low capacitance phono cable. If you run a moving coil then capacitance is not an issue.

The AT33 is mono???

@chridabs 

No 

see here

https://www.audio-technica.com/en-eu/cartridges/line-series/at33-series?_gl=1*3n3jrk*_up*MQ..*_ga*MTI1NDc1NTg3Ni4xNzUzODQwMjI1*_ga_9B1Z5FDEW6*czE3NTM4NDAyMjUkbzEkZzEkdDE3NTM4NDAyNDgkajM3JGwwJGgxMzM4MjgzNzA3

Recommended AT33EV and AT33PTGII.

Plenty available on line at great prices new.

Thank you @dover 

After spending a good few hours back and fourth with a seller apparently the 505MKII or MKIII  will not fit on the TP-MT as its 30 mm (1.18 inches). I wouldn't know as I dont have the arm to hand hahahah 

So i have to look at the ones on the manual.  Unless i get another sized board. The 505 being one of them.

Looking at the Micro 505, saec, WE 308SX , FR, Stax, Ortofon, grace.

Currently reading up on the saec. 

Opinions?

Very much appreciated. 

The 444 is to be found as well but will be quite a few $'s extra.

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/item/search/Luxman+441/Al_11_Yh_RaRmMr_N_N_0A00ja000_N/

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/auction/yahoo/input/p1189770314/

@chridabs 

After spending a good few hours back and fourth with a seller apparently the 505MKII or MKIII  will not fit on the TP-MT as its 30 mm (1.18 inches). I wouldn't know as I dont have the arm to hand hahahah 

 

The micro 505 requires a hole of 28mm or larger.

According to the Luxman arm base brochure the TP-MT is the correct arm base.

Does that include the 505MKII and MKIII?? 

ugh i love being technical but when its all fresh its such a mine field.

What do you think of the seac 308SX? Bare in mind i am not filthy rich just yet but this was on of the options on the list.

Thank you again Dover

@pindac 

Thats a gorgeous table. Just cant do it in my current situation. Also being pretty fresh to all this I really want to get myself a starting point from which my obsession will take over my life hahah

chridabs OP

Bottom plates/configurations (of the arms), VTA adjustable bases vary, (depends what TT it came off of). Mounting parts vary, not all accessory parts are still included. Pay attention, look at many listings until you know what is being sold. Look at what separate parts are listed for sale on hifishark, to learn.

New install in a plinth, you drill a 28mm hole for the arm post. If possible get a/the thick heavy 'stabilizer' bottom nut. If not, you can stack a few nuts to have more weight below. Not needed, but why not. The Acos Lustre GST-801 has a very thick heavy bottom stabilizer nut also.

This listing shows the dark colored OEM stabilizer.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/335832791607?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=335832791607&targetid=2295557531510&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9003511&poi=&campaignid=21388819155&mkgroupid=173029508548&rlsatarget=aud-1339632007594:pla-2295557531510&abcId=9447217&merchantid=426095894&gad_source=4&gad_campaignid=21388819155&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh_GmvUieIS0qgOn2FPCrrMvT&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhafEBhCcARIsAEGZEKLOp3dTzZE1vPNI6UQLUdxOxzeI2srVcJ3rDBtLl8PuSCui-bHdXy0aAt2IEALw_wcB

The lever that tightens to lock the VTA arm height can break, I got a big allen head metric screw for my friend's arm, textured rim, still able to tighten by hand.

Also, for my friend, I needed to get a large washer from a hardware store to provide a transition diameter from the arm post (+/- 26mm?) to the hole in the TT's plate we received.

The sliding/locking arm plates are two layers, the bottom layer is always the same, a big oval cutout, it is the part that locks in the tracks, The top layer varies, small star shape, medium, large hole, it simply screws onto the bottom layer. So, IF needed, a small hole in a top plate could be made bigger if perhaps you receive a plate with too small diameter hole.

However, think long, you might want a different arm in the future. Of course with the 441, you only need 1 lower layer and simply change the top layer as needed, now or the future. 

some arms have integrated arm rests, some need a separate stand alone arm rest, this is the optional arm rest part, it fastens to a corner of the arm mounting plate.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/226352373714?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338381866&toolid=10001&customid=9c835640-6d58-11f0-8274-333763633361

thank you all! this is all amazing info and advice. 

I am leaning more towards the seac just to get me going. Not knowing what things are going to sound like I need a starting block from which to work out from.

But i continue to read etc just to bring me up to speed 

I will check out the links!

I modified my PD444 with a Wenge wood sub plinth and outboard brass pedestal that accepts Micro Seiki tonearm bases.  It’s a beautiful and great sounding TT that compares well with my Kenwood L07D.  Pictured with two SME 3012R tonearms and a rare Micro Seiki 808X.  Woops, the image didn’t post.  How do you post an image? 

@dgarretson 

oh nice would love to see. 

Hmm not sure. DO you have to have it on an external site and then link in???

Sorry, my response was inexplicably deleted by the moderator.  First time in 2600+ posts.  Outa beer outa here.

Sometimes posts you expect to be deleted, don't get deleted.  And sometimes vice-versa. Depends upon the beer supply I expect.

dgarretson, everyone

lots of words, but easy once you understand the image must be on the web somewhere, and you post the image's web address (url), not the image itself. 

1. find an image already online, right click, 'copy image address'.

2. post window, top edit bar, click on 6th icon from left, 'image'

3. paste the url you copied into the window that pops up

4. OK

DISTORTED IMAGE?

sometimes you need to enter 600 in the width to keep a larger image from getting distorted. (height self-adjusts to the entered width)

upload your photos.

Once I figured out how to use Audiogon's Virtual Systems,

https://www.audiogon.com/systems/users/elliottbnewcombjr?_gl=1*15fyfjw*_ga*MTQ0MzA1MzQ4Mi4xNzUyNzEzMTU1*_ga_SR0PMVVEN1*czE3NTM5NjMyOTMkbzUkZzEkdDE3NTM5NjQyMjckajYkbDEkaDE2NzgwMzI2NzA.

To post any image on my computer, I made a separate Virtual System called 'Misc Info' on this site, so I can upload any image to Audiogon's web site, then 'copy image address

chridabs OP

your best value may be to wait until you find a 441 with an acceptable arm included, get it, and later change to a different arm.

I often see SME 3009 arms on them, I used one for many years on my Thorens TD124, loved it. Easy and precise balance, tracking weight, and anti-skate. Arm height is by clamping screw, not easy for changing VTA like the Acos Lustre GST-801 or Micro-Seiki MA505.

Similar to the JVC Victor, the SME 3009/12 have a rubber sleeve that isolates the rear from the front tube sections. It can deteriorate, the rear counterweight tube slips over it. I renewed mine many years ago. Steve at VAS likes them, he bought mine.

SME’s have a unique bottom connector, a shield that slides onto it, and a dedicated fitting on the phono cable, make sure the cable is included. Conversions to RCA Jacks can be done.

This listing shows it well

https://www.ebay.com/itm/257043523542?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338381866&toolid=10001&customid=3cf7a98c-6e12-11f0-b771-346330323932

I got new part from SME, found this just now

https://www.ebay.com/itm/127262758116?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28&google_free_listing_action=view_item&srsltid=AfmBOop4JplseoWQ7A5i1UWMfnVpkrgOJO9wQK6MeRVBZeurV6R6o_tc_rw

@elliottbnewcombjr

Appreciate the info. Probably saves a ton of server space having external links!

The pd441 is on the way. I got it relatively cheap (is there such a word?) I also managed to get a seac 308SX on the cheap (theres that imaginary word again).

I really did like the SME 3009 but just didnt find one at the time with the right price. Also the armboard that is coming with the 441 is Seac size and I didnt want to go and get another one just yet. I really did LOVE the micro seiki 505 MKIII straight arm. That thing is sexy. But the fixed head was a little hmmmm

SO just waiting out on delivery. Luckily all free returns etc just i case. 

Just need to get myself a cart. Currently looking at a Grace f8c (in another post i made)

And then a sound stage :( Just never ends. May post about a decent stage after i have done my daily youtube lurking.

Have to say this forum is awesome!

Will post a pic once i get things laid out in front of me!

congrats, best of luck with it.

I never saw/heard the SAEC arm, it looks good, they made an accessory Stabilizer weight, seen here

https://audio-database.com/SAEC/etc/we-308sx.html

If 308sx needs a 30mm hole, then, for the future, that plate's large hole is big enough for the Micro-Seiki 505, the Acos-Lustre CST-801 or JVC Victor 7045/7082, the one's I know about.

One trick, is to make a pencil mark using the plate with no arm mounted, so you can pre-measure with your ruler flat, 235mm center of spindle to the center of the hole in the plate, (+5mm overhang = 308sx's 240mm effective length).

Make a pencil mark you can see/align with after the arm is mounted in the plate (when you can no longer lay your ruler flat).

@elliottbnewcombjr 

I managed to bag myself a stabaliser. The seller said it wasnt a MUST but worth getting. I figured if i wanted to sell the arm later it would be better to have the whole bits that go along with it. 

Do you think its worth getting the ceramic head? I dont rally know what the advantage would be??

Would you happen to have any links / pics of the procedure? I think I get.

My suggestion if wanting to tip ones toes into Japanese DD Vintage is to have as the first venture a Aurex SR 520.

I own Three of these and a Spare Motor Stator / Platter Spindle Bearing to be used to produce Variant Kaneta designn to compare to a recently produced Variant Kaneta design. 

I've listened to noise on here in the past about the suggestion of the Aurex TT. 

They are to be found for very very fair monies, have a substantial casting as a Stator Bowl and Stators that are huge winding compared to some other owned Japanese Vintage DD TT's. 

Improving the Plinth they can be supplied with is very easy. 

A alternate Plinth leaves numerous options on a Tonearm. 

I would suggest a Replinthed Model with a Tonearm and Cartridge can be in use with a System already with a Phonostage for near $500.

A  Very experienced TT user with an extensive collection and access to a Analogue Source, has compared the Aurex very very favourably to a DDTT from a similar era, that acquires a substantial asking price. 

@pindac 

Thanks Pindac I really appreciate the info and your knowledge. I ended up getting the PD441. Partly on looks and partly on reviews. I should get it in the next few days. The arm is coming soon after.

I just need to look at a stage 

I ended up getting a Grace f9 that I shall get upgraded once i know what i am actually listening to. 

ceramic headshell, hmm, I never considered one, certainly it is a unique rigid material.

I like headshells that allow Azimuth Adjustment, like the one’s that came with my AT160ml cartridges. The fitting that receives the cartridge on the end of the curved arm on the Micro Seiki 505 is adjustable, that is a wonderful feature.

I bought ’Pat’s’ azimuth adjustable headshell on eBay, but it is a soft flexible piece of crap

do you mean this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/187412311592?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28&google_free_listing_action=view_item

how much azimuth adjustment is possible with this headshell?

this ’one piece’ popped up in a quickie search 

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/korf-hs-a02-ceramic-headshell/

https://korfaudio.com/hs-a02b

https://korfaudio.com/hs-a03   199. euros

pay attention to the weight, the article compared it to Titanium, but titanium is heavy, so a better comparison might be carbon

korf discusses the saec ceramic cartridge.

https://korfaudio.com/blog66

Interesting how in investigations undertaken of Headshells in the past years where Wonder Materials were being introduced as the must have design.

When the comparisons to other more traditional materials were being showed, Magnesium Headshells have not been included in a Comparison ????

A 9 gram Magnesium Headshell has been my choice for multiple years. I own a large batch of 9-10g Types.

I have not felt the need to return to older used options, or seek out Wonder Headshells.   

As for the Link I've seen MS 9 - MS 10 - MS 11 sell for close to £100 in the UK as a single item. There are come very greedy types in audio, this will keep one out their path.

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/auction/yahoo/input/s1194703471/

carbon, only 8g, azimuth adjustment

https://www.ebay.com/itm/267273538668?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338381866&toolid=10001&customid=70e69862-6e3e-11f0-a26c-643236336433

aluminum/magnesium, azimuth adjustment (1 or 2 pin versions available)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/297029031719?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338381866&toolid=10001&customid=f713c1d0-6e3e-11f0-9de0-626131373061

note: clarify with seller, text mentions carbon, perhaps by error

aluminum, litz wire, azimuth adjustment

https://www.ebay.com/itm/196348219458?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338381866&toolid=10001&customid=a56abc52-6e3f-11f0-81be-626131373061

wood, soundsmith, azimuth adjust

https://www.ebay.com/itm/132506514869?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338381866&toolid=10001&customid=47fe6ea0-6e40-11f0-99f2-346366653263

Last time I had lunch with Steve and Ray Leung of VAS, they said their favorite cartridges had wood bodies. I didn't think to ask what headshell, Steve uses a VPI TT and VPI arm, with many wands that fit their unipivot, with mini-din connectors.

Theres so much choice. :S

What would an ideal headshell be? Plastic? Carbon? Personally i didnt even know about the options. Again, just a freshy here. 

I got an F9 with a headshell. although I will probably get it upgraded.

I need some cables too (din) but everything i find seems to come from china. Not an issue for me but shipping times aere long. 

I may use bluejean cables as they did some stuff for me when i put together my home cinema. Unless anyone has some options ??

Thank you all !!

opinions?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/297028925009

When it comes to Cables I like a PC Triple C Signal Wire.

DIN to RCA is limiting, get a DIN >RCA Adaptor and open up to your yourself a humongous selection on Cables to be tried.

DIN RCA Cables usually come with quite a premium in their price over RCA>RCA.  

The Links again will help.

My Adaptor selected would not be my choice, it is to show the way to increase Cable choices. Much shorter signal path adaptors are to be found.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/387649347055?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D289503%26meid%3Da44ac433eea54bd2a0cb0b89b1327fa8%26pid%3D101506%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D297028925009%26itm%3D387649347055%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D4481478%26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWebWithV11WebTrimmedV3VisualRankerWithKnnV3AndUltBRecallAndCassiniEmbRecallAndVideoRecall%26brand%3D-%2BSenza%2Bmarca%252FGenerico%2B-&_trksid=p4481478.c101506.m1851

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/auction/yahoo/input/t1194739122/

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/special/order/confirm/murauchi-dvd:134183720/2_1/

https://www.puristaudiodesign.com/Data/products/misc/adp.html#

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/special/order/confirm/audio9:10004792/2_1/

I like the idea of ceramic, would choose the new one piece one from korf even though the saec one is historically cool. 

I would choose the aluminum/magnesium with azimuth adjustment over the 3D printed 'flexible flyer' type (it can't be rigid) or the carbon one which has zero side wall to resist flexing.

@elliottbnewcombjr 

I think I am going to the aluminum/magnesium as the  headshell with the f9 does not have azimuth adjustment.

What do you mean by 1 or 2 pin?

OH forget it. I see now. I would need a 2!

Thank you all so much