Samuel33, I think Jafox and Jmcgrogan2 are giving you excellent advice - but you don't have to spend all your dough immediately to start learning about your system and enjoying music. Two comments on an interesting thread...
- An alternative is to use less of your budget up front and put the rest aside until you get to know the electronics and maybe save more for better quality cables. For example, something like Alph-Core Goertz speaker cables will get you pretty close for a small amount of money - under $200 for a couple meters. I'm guessing you can get reasonable results from 'starter cables' for less than $500 total. Brands like Stealth, Siltech, Purist, Shunyata, Crystal Cable, etc. are a lot more money, but (aside from the general craziness of high-end audio) you do tend to get what you pay for.
- From experience with my own system, I'll observe that you will not get what you've already paid for from your electronics and speakers until you've spent time discovering how cabling impacts the sound of your system. The above comments about system 'balance' run true, imo. And the 'utility' of cables may not be apparent until taking that effort. If you're willing to spend the money on the equipment you have, you owe it to yourself to realize its potential.
I believe you match the amp w the speaker as long as long as the pre plays nice w the amp. I also strongly believe that price has nothing to do with system balance.
The cables I've "settled" in on are Auditorium 23's and am currently deciding betwean Acoustic Zen silvers RefII's and the Matrix. The Matrix's have some burn in left but are sounding promising. I'm hearing more "decays, ambiance, harmonic overtones" in my system than I ever had. Total approximate costs of cabeling will be around $1400 (purchased used).
I also hate switching in and out cables and it will take me months just too chose betwean the AZ's. Slow, incremental changes in the system is the style that serves me the best.
@ Jafox : you are right a website can look serious and selling bad stuff, it is just that Jade cable are out of my budget.
I don't want to try cables that I can't afford, i have made intense research to buy my system at "low cost" of course when you see shindo cat avalon, you can think "not a problem for him to buy expensive cable" but it is not the case, i have to buy good inexpensive one.
I just share with you my first impression about cables, I never said "expensive cables are bullshit" i said "for me, for now, i don't see their utility AND i can't afford them"
So i have not many choices, you understand my point of view ?
I can figure easely that expensive cables work (you made comparison AB, so..) but i think the difference between a cable at 1000$ and one at 10 000$ is not so important as can be a preamp at 1000$ and one at 10 000$
but seriously when you see the website it is quite scary.
I disagree. One man has taken the time to add a little warmth and fun to his site rather than the same ol' web design of images of grand pianos, 400 year-old violins, conductors, treble clefs, etc. And then we often read the claims that products chase the absolute sound, their implementation of aerospace engineering techniques, etc., etc., etc. The same marketing hype gets old quickly. But here we have something different and you immediately dismiss it. Come on, lighten up a bit - enjoy this rather than taking it all so seriously.
Rather than be intimidated by attacking teddy bears, why not read the text on the site of materials used, the many iterations of various wire gauges auditioned, the willingness to customize cables for each customer, etc., and take advantage of the opportunity to try these free for a month. It makes a lot more sense than buying a product based on a review and then being stuck with it when it does not outperform what you already have for less cost.
My experiences mirror much of Chrisla's. It was not 7-8 years ago that power cables made no difference in my system and this was with highly respected top ARC electronics, Magnepan speakers and Linn TT. But then a power conditioner came along, and some Kubala-Sosna and Purist cables, and suddenly power cables and then speaker cables started to make a huge difference. Ironically, the IC from preamp to amp has ALWAYS made a huge difference when a tube preamp was in the chain.
What have made me doubtfull is that I have compared 2000$ cables to 30 000$ Transparent and heard difference BUT no improvment, you see what I mean ?
No........your conclusion is only relevant for those 2 cables in the system they were used. Don't make the blanket conclusion that because you heard no improvement here that the point of diminishing returns for all cables is much lower. I don't see this as dumb or incompetent but rather jumping to conclusions without first doing some home-trials of many cables.
What seems unwise to me (not dumb) is to purchase cables based solely on recommendation and review without first listening to them and comparing them to other cables in your system over a period of time.
BTW there are many- read many cables at the 800 to 1200 dollar price point that might cause you to re-think your stance on how cables do or do not contribute to the sound of your system.
Auditorium 23 speakers cables used with SHINDO, what is the price ????
$880 for 2.5 meters.
So maybe there is in fact a way (not the only one, but one) to use relatively inexpensive cables with GREAT result with shindo products...
They are sold by Tone Import (importator of shindo in USA) on their website : "Keith Aschenbrenner began experiments in the early 90's to find a suitable speaker cable to work with his then new line of electronics Shindo Laboratory"
Maybe i'm not so dumb and incompetent in my will to find inexpensive cable which can deliver great result with my system.
@ Chrisla : thanx for your post, really intresting. What have made me doubtfull is that I have compared 2000$ cables to 30 000$ Transparent and heard difference BUT no improvment, you see what I mean ?
I will try other listening session....
@ Jmcgrogan2 : you say : "Do you consider Avalon, CAT and Shindo to be low cost, quality components? I don't. I guess my point is I believe in total system balance. I would no sooner put low price cables in the system then I would hook a low price amp up to a Shindo preamp. It just doesn't make sense. In either case you will not get the full performance that the Shindo is capable of."
I agree with you, i just need to know where is the good balance between price a REAL benefit.
After that you say "I apologize for recommending them, as you did say low cost. I just looked at you equipment list and made the mistaken impression that you wanted to do your gear some sort of justice."
Don't apologize, it will be path to follow in the future, but i'm not ready for this path now.
Finally you said "I see that you are new here, and it takes time to learn how to properly assemble a system. Simply throwing together a bunch of famous components rarely gets the job done right. "
Come'on ! I spent month in listening session to find my speakers and my preamp so your arrogance is not welcome. The only risk that i have taken is for my amp. Don't lecture me please.
I understand that my post on the credibility of your advices was unpolite, but seriously when you see the website it is quite scary.
10 years ago, when I got back into hifi, I bought watt/puppies and a krell amp/preamp/cd player. Thought i was the cat's meow. Tried a couple of interconnects for about 20 minutes... basically heard no difference, but, I did hear speaker cable differences, and at the time Transparent was the Wilson cable of preference and bought some supers, in part, because I was told it was a good system match, and they seemed a LITTLE better. Got some less expensive Transparent cables for interconnects, still have em around. Tried an expensive power cable for the amp, (realtively, 300 bucks) and thought it was a waste of money.
Fast forward past a home theater with Watt/Puppies, a second living room system with Watt/Puppies, Alto Be's and now MBL101e's. 5 or 6 CESs, 100 stereophile mags, and a few different dealers. I have to go through 7, yes 7 different pairs of speaker cables. Then I end up going through 3 power conditioners, and 5 different interconnects, and I may still try one or two more. I think, as I have listened more critically, as I have had more disposal income, and maybe, as I have been more desensitized to the prices of cabling, I actually have spent more time listening to the different interconnects, than I had to in order to choose the 101s. And then, I tried a power cord of all things on my Meitner cd player, that actually made a relatively large difference... shocked the hell out of me!
I am not really sure why now, I hear such big differences in so many different things, I still have found ICs to make the least difference, speaker wires to make the most, but I no longer laugh at anything anybody hears.. or doesn't hear. I know when I bought my first watt/puppies, that was so expensive I didn't want to hear crap about multi-thousand dollar cables, the dealer may have lost the sale at that point. Now, I want to hear system synergy, I want to have it all flow, and although I abhor the prices of cables.... I have sadly spent the money to optimize my system.
So I stand by my original post... I don't use them anymore, but for a decently made, reasonably performing cable, at a relatively inexpensive pricepoint, although a little grainy compared to the best I have heard, I find ProSilway IIs and Magic Woofer Harmonix cables to be excellent performers.
AND, used, you can get 2pr of ICs and speaker cables for what? somewhere between 1000-1500.. Cheers, Chris
Do you consider Avalon, CAT and Shindo to be low cost, quality components? I don't. I guess my point is I believe in total system balance. I would no sooner put low price cables in the system then I would hook a low price amp up to a Shindo preamp. It just doesn't make sense. In either case you will not get the full performance that the Shindo is capable of. Sure, I could buy more expensive components if I used zip cord to hook them up, but what would be the point? I know some guys take it too far (IMHO), and have systems where the cables cost more than the equipment, but a properly balanced system will sound better than a bunch of expensive pieces thrown together. I know $$$ and quality are not always tied together, but I have to wonder if you'd hook up your Shindo and CAT to some Paradigm bookshelf speakers.
Yes, the Jade website is poor and not up to date. J.D is also not the quickest to respond, and yes, he is a friend of mine. He is a small company, and has become 'friends' with most of the folks he comes in contact with. He has 'friends' who aren't even his customers. Sound and friendship are seperate entities though. I have many friends, but I don't always agree with what they call good sound. I have become friends with other manufacturers and dealers, but I'm not a schill. I told you about Jade because they are the best cables I've heard, and I have heard more expensive ones too. If they are too expensive for you, then so be it. There certainly are many less expensive cables out there to choose from. I apologize for recommending them, as you did say low cost. I just looked at you equipment list and made the mistaken impression that you wanted to do your gear some sort of justice.
No hard feelings. I see that you are new here, and it takes time to learn how to properly assemble a system. Simply throwing together a bunch of famous components rarely gets the job done right. Just as a carefully selected, strongly bonded team will usually outperform an All-Star team.
For now i don't see the cables as "car's wheels" but as rear wiper or something like that... (maybe a little more important)
I've seen the Jade website...with teddy bears, it not seems very professionnal... how can i know that you are not his friends ? ;)-
The other point is that I want to buy a turntable, so i prefer invest in a turntable rather than in cables which -for me- make no big difference in a system.
I not fond of FLW's furniture as well, and it would be 86'd if I too bought one of his homes. But I would not run down to Ikea to furnish the home any more than I would run down to Home Depot and buy wire or extension cords, use furutech or WBT connectors and run this with my audio system.
There's a context for everything as part of a system and generic cables are not relevant to the system under evaluation here. The issue is not what we believe but what we observe when we open our minds.
Sorry I missed that the first time around. I just assumed (incorrectly) that you would want quality cables to join the quality components you have. I have no further reco for your <$2K price range including all interconnects and speaker cables that would do justice with your components. There are many inexpensive cables to choose from, just pick one that fits your budget.
Tvad, maybe this analogy would work better for you. It's kind of like buying a Ferrari and putting General tires on it. I suppose it does happen though.
Take some AU 24 speakercable and mix it with some ZU Varial. Pre-owned you will stay within your budget. And besides that it's a good start to explore some more excotic cables. Btw it was the Graaf GM200.
Jade Audio are not low price (in my price paradigm), which is a criteria of the original post.
This is true, but one does not buy a Frank Lloyd Wright home and furnish it with products from Ikea. The same applies to Samuel33's system and cabling.
Are you sure (comparison A/B) that cables are so important ?
Absolutely! I was able to do this back and forth between the Stealth Indra and the Jade Hybrid and the differences were immediately clear. The same qualitative differences would not have been so evident had I not had both at the same time.
Samuel33 - Do not look at this as "listening" to cables but rather discovering the true potential of the system you have assembled. Having the ability to adjust to the sound with one cable and then instantly switch to another will make this very evident.
Wahou i didn't expect some much responses for a cable thread !
Are you sure (comparison A/B) that cables are so important ?
@Thorman : i don't know my budget for cables -not a fortune for sure- but i try to figure the best quality/price compromise.
@Leica_man : for the shindo preamps... hum... when you listen to it, there is a "before shindo" and an "after shindo". I will stop it there, because I don't want to be like Mike Lavigne and his Dartzeel proselytism... Just try it or ask shindo owners with which other preamp they have compared their shindo...it will be the begining of an answer.
@ jafox, Jmcgrogan2 and Glide3 : you convice me to try Jade audio cables, with the 30 trial days it ok for me to test it -by the way i have th opportunity to compar them with Transparent opus MM (the famous one at 30 000$)- So let see what Jade can do !
@ randu : stealth was close to jade in the post, so not a real reason to not test them exept that i don't want to test 10 cables!
For now i don't see the real potential of good cable -honnestly i find cable listening session VERY boring- so I trust you guys and i will keep you in touch !
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@ Jafox : don't hesitate to contact me for tips on small-signal tubes for the CAT amplifier, thanx.
Check out Audio Art cables - they have replaced some high priced spread in my all tube Cary/Shanling/VPI system to very good effect and at a very nice price.
I'll second John's (Jafox) recommendation for Jade Audio Hybrid and Vermeil speaker cables. The best that I have heard in regards to tonal accuracy, palpability and 3D soundstage. Not mass market, but really special cables made by a very special man, who also just happens to be a prestigeous AudiogoN member. J.D. MacRae, AudiogoN handle Jadem6. Look him up and try them out for 30 days, risk free.
You have an outstanding setup here......don't compromise on the cables. One key area that so many ICs destroy in the preamp-to-amp link are the decays, ambiance, harmonic overtones, etc. You have this capability in spades ..... don't throw it away with mainstream cables.
I have found two ICs that work incredibly well between the Aesthetix Callisto Sig and CAT JL-3 amps: Stealth Indra and Jade Audio Hybrid. The Stealth has a little more extension on the top; the Jade Hybrid portrays the 3D and decays more beautifully. These are both in the $2k range but to go for something with much less performance just does not make sense here.
For speaker cables (I have SoundLab A1 speakers), surprisingly I find the Purist Opis to work very well ..... no obvious tonal peaks or valleys and quite good in dynamic contrasts.....the latter is the key strength of the CAT amps. The other speaker cable I have heard that stands out is the new Jade audio but it runs twice the price of the Opis. This fleshes out the 3D in the music much like the Hybrid IC.
Give the Jade cables a listen. You can try them out for a month no obligation and you will likely be mightily impressed.
Once you find cables that work, I can give you some tips on small-signal tubes for the CAT amp that will take it far beyond the stock Sovtek and Ei tubes.
I have always found that Harmonic Tec Pro Silway II, for the money, especially now on audiogo, used, are a great value. I believe I have seen them here for less than 250 used. I agree with trying the Cable Company though, seems like a small price to pay to match your system up.
First, how do you like your Shindo pre amp? I've read reviews over on 6 Moons and I am intrigued : )
Back on topic- Synergistic Research Tesla Accelerator. Read the reviews here and else where. TAS just gave them the "Cable of the Year" award. I suggest you contact The Cable Company and give them an audition in your system along with a few other cables from different manufacturers.
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