Have certainly decided that a 20-40W pentode design is a good path. Keeping in mind the K's are in a 12x26 room go with KT 66, 77, or 6L6 for an "EL-84 tactile and immediate" kind of sound?
If it were me I'd be looking for an amp with Ultra-Linear operation since UL allows the output section to have the same linearity as a triode. Or find an amp that is actually triode. Push-pull amps that are triode, even using Directly Heated Triodes do exist.
Ultra-linear is nice since the power tubes usually used are easy to find. Since you don't need all that much power a 6L6 or EL34 based amp would certainly do the job.
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Considering a Decware Tori II MkV for my K's. Atmasphere's comments were influencing on this thread. Have certainly decided that a 20-40W pentode design is a good path. Keeping in mind the K's are in a 12x26 room go with KT 66, 77, or 6L6 for an "EL-84 tactile and immediate" kind of sound? Other considerations are C-J classic 62, and BAT VK-56. There's a listing on Canuck Audio Mart for a pair of Master Sound (Italy) 845 monobloc's. Another worthy consideration? -Scott
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You are entirely correct; there is very little novel in the area of tube design (unless you count ss assist). Most ’designers’ simply optimise component values for their particular application of a certain pre-documented circuit, or at the most give it a mild tweak - and sometimes they don’t even get that right. Ironically. some recent ’advances’ have have occured due to the re- examination of long forgotten texts.
There have been, and are very few true innovators coming up with novel ideas and making advances in the field. And I certainly don’t count myself among them.
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Iron is indeed the king with tube gear, for both pushpull and single-ended amps. There is hardly anything new and novel in tube design, so most of it comes down to parts quality, build quality and voicing by the designer.
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I built a 6FW5 pp about ten years back using Sansui 1000A pulls for OPTs. Sounded very nice for vintage iron. Hashimoto does build good transformers.
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Some great discussion here @rooze @larryi and @tsushima1 I have also heard that Synthesis A40 actually driving the exact same speakers I own AN-J/lx's really lovely sounding and such a good value. I've not ever owned a 6l6 amp but have always been curious so many folks I know with good ears love them, I also love the KT77 tube as a replacement for the EL34.
That Sansui amp looks great and I'm sure it sounds fantastic I'm guessing if you could find one it would be serious $$$. And yes iron is king I've been lucky to have bback to back amps using vintage trannies first Accrosound and now Eico and love that sound.
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@larryi … Unfortunately So, unless one goes OTL with say one of Ralph’s superb amplifiers the Quality of Iron is King
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That Sansui integrated looks terrific, and with Hashimoto trannies, it probably sounds great too (I have not heard this amp).
I know a young man who has heard various Western 124 clone amps (Deja Vu Audio) using vintage transformers and liked the sound so much that he planned on designing and building his own clone. Unfortunately, he got to hear the same clone amp with the real deal Western Electric 171C transformer. After that experience, he put aside the idea of building a clone because the model with the real output transformers sounded so much better, but, those transformers would make the build too expensive. That is how it goes in audio, something sounds really nice and you love it until you hear something better and that spoils your joy over the lesser item.
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@larryi
I would concur … 6L6 amps often sound 2nd harmonicly rich but with good base and top end extension.
One of my favourites being Sansui AU-111 intergrated from the mid 60’s , fantastic bandwidth Hashimoto transforms dont hurt either.
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I am a BIG fan of the 6L6 tube, but, that would mean a pushpull amp. The KT 66 is a very similar sounding tube. Both have a rich, harmonically dense sound without sounding murky or sluggish or soft on dynamics (some of my personal issue with some 300B amps). I love real or clones of Western Electric 124 amps (350B tube, which is the very expensive equivalent of the 6L6 tube) running the 6L6 tube, and other 6L6 vintage amps, like some RCA amps and Northern Electric amps. There are not that many current production 6L6 amps because they put out less power than roughly comparable tube types (e.g., EL34, KT88, 6550) which makes it hard to market a 6L6 amp to buyers who seem to only recognize power as a quality factor.
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Food for thought and thanks for the response Atmasphere. Vu's tube preferences for the K's were 300B's and 6L6's. That conversation and your comments bring something like the Canary M-90 to mind. Anyone had experience with that one? -Scott
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He however, is squarely in the SET camp and suggested Quests given my price range and need for a dedicated power amp.
@scottya118 SETs have this way of more and more limited bandwidth as you increase power. Usually this means 7-8 Watts (usually via a 300b) is as much power as you can get and still call it 'hifi'. Since output transformer bandwidth falls off with power (its not the tube's fault!) usually its the bass octave that suffers as bass response is usually the hardest to get when designing an output transformer.
That is why I recommended a push-pull amplifier! A 20 Watt or even a 60 Watt PP amp will have wider bandwidth (for example the H/K Citation 2 has bandwidth past 100KHz) and will have much lower distortion.
To give you an idea of the latter, a typical SET is 10% distortion at full power (which is why you usually don't want to run them past about 20% of full power...). A PP amp might be 1%. BUT- and this is a big one- the distortion of the PP amp is considerably lower at the power level that an SET makes at full power! Depending on the amp, by a couple of orders of magnitude.
Distortion obscures detail plain and simple. With a good PP amp its no problem making out detail in the rear of the sound stage that you can't with the best SETs.
I know Vu, we've shown at audio shows in the past and he's a good guy, but in this case I think he's giving you bad advice: your room is a bit on the large side- and the Audio Note speakers are not as efficient as they claim IMO. That's why I recommend a bit more power than will be practical with an SET.
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Rooze,
I completely agree with you about Deja Vu Audio and Synthesis. I too, really like their amps and think that the A40 (KT66, built in DAC) would be a fantastic choice with the AN-K, except that the OP has a Backert linestage and is only looking for a power amp.
I own a Deja Vu custom-built linestage and a Deja Vu custom-built stereo power amp based on a Western Electric 133a amplifier (has genuine Western Electric parts, including the correct input and output transformers). I actually like the 133a amp more than i do the Audio Note Kageki amps I also own. This store is certainly a place to discover gear you will not find anywhere else and experience a different kind of sound that is a far cry from conventional high end.
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I've heard Audio Note speakers at Deja Vu Audio in Northern VA and Vu had them set up with a Synthesis integrated amp. They sounded very, very nice. The Synthesis brand has been on my radar since then. Deja Vu struck me as being the model of how a good audio retailer should operate. Each of his listening rooms sounded great, each clearly set up with a lot of attention to detail, and Vu was very generous with his time and experience, and not at all pushy. A stark contrast to dealing with some of the 'used car salesmen' one encounters at rival stores.
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When I brought up ANK not being affiliated with Audio Note (uk), it was not to disparage, in any way, ANK. I was merely saying that the products are not the same. ANK utilizes the same sort of "level" system and says it uses genuine Audio Note parts, etc., but: 1) the circuits are slightly different; just because some parts are sources from Audio Note, it does not mean the quality of all parts are the same; and 3) the "level" ascribed by ANK are not necessarily the equivalent of those of Audio Note.
I personally have limited experience with the ANK kits. A friend built a DAC that sounded very good to me, so I know that they are capable of making very good kits that represent a solid bargain. I just don't know how their products stack up against Audio Note.
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I am quite aware of the the rather unfortunate circumstances surrounding Kondo’s loss of the Audio Note naming rights to Peter Qvortrup, who is a rather unscrupulous character who reminds me of someone else who often hangs around here. He was into shipping insurance of all things before he got into the audio game.
There was some very interesting and heated debate on the Audio Asylum after their separation in which Peter tried to defend his actions, but he didn‘t come off looking too good. Google ’liars thieves and magpies’ if you want a good read. Don‘t know if HE‘s managed to get any posts or threads deleted, but it‘s definitely worth a look.
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A few years ago not sure exactly when.
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@pesky_wabbit ANK is in fact no longer affiliated with AN UK
when did this occur?
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whatever you do try and compare before you buy, and do not commit to one topology before you begin trials. Try both . You will have a definite preference.
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Scott glad to hear you got to talk to Vu I find he's typically spot on and can diagnose problems over the phone really well as you learned. You're in good hands for sure I wish I had discovered his shop a lot earlier in my own audio journey.
@pesky_wabbit ANK is in fact no longer affiliated with AN UK that's in fact why they changed the name to ANK as they cannot use the Audio Note name any longer.
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I just got off the phone with Vu. Whoever recommended that thank you. A most informative conversation. Keep in mind this thread started with me looking for better punch in the midrange. What I failed to mention was that I've been running this rig with a REL T-7. Vu's first comment was that my sub was sucking out my midrange. This was a revelation to me. He then concurred that tubes were the only way to go for the K's. He however, is squarely in the SET camp and suggested Quests given my price range and need for a dedicated power amp. -Scott
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Just to be clear since the K's are in a larger room (approx 30 x 12) you would prefer a push pull configuration.
Definitely! In a room like that I'd want 50-60 watts. Also you might consider a subwoofer system to break up standing waves in the room below 80Hz. To do this the subs have to be asymmetrically placed in the room so the standing waves are properly broken up- that's not something you can treat with bass traps or DSP room correction, although once the subs are in place and doing their job, those things can be helpful.
The only other caveat is that on several occasions, I've heard a bit of noise coming from speakers hooked up to Atmasphere amps, but in all these cases, the speakers being used were quite a bit more efficient
@larryi
If you've had high efficiency speakers you know how careful you have to be about setup to avoid noise! We have a number of customers using AvantGarde and other horns with no worries. For speakers like that we offer a gain reduction plug that replaces a tube in the voltage amplifier. thus reducing the gain of the amp and pesky noises that can manifest upstream from the amplifier.
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What Atmasphere is saying that you might want the bit of extra power that pushpull delivers rather than the flea power of the common SET tubes. What he has been very diplomatic about not mentioning is that he manufactures output transformerless (OTL) amps. Atmasphere's OTL amps are also worth considering. OTL amps are very lively, immediate and engaging. Good ones deliver clarity and dynamics without being harsh or overly "brittle" sounding.
Many OTL amps were not particularly stable and were prone to going bad, which in some cases, meant damage to the speakers. But, this is NOT the reputation of Atmasphere amps. They are quite reliable.
As with any amp, the basic tonal balance is a matter of taste, and to me, the Atmasphere amps are a touch on the lean side. That might not be a problem with the AN-K, because, if anything, they tend toward being slightly too warm and rich in the upper bass. In any case, if you have a chance, you should audition an OTL. The liveliness of this kind of amp can be quite addictive. I've heard one of their bigger amps with Audio Note speakers (I can't recall the model) and the combination sounded very good to my ears. The only other caveat is that on several occasions, I've heard a bit of noise coming from speakers hooked up to Atmasphere amps, but in all these cases, the speakers being used were quite a bit more efficient than the AN-K model so they were more sensitive to noise issues.
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Hi Atmasphere, Thank you for your comments. Just to be clear since the K's are in a larger room (approx 30 x 12) you would prefer a push pull configuration. Correct? -Scott
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If you are talking about an AN Kit amp, I don’t think they are affiliated with Audio Note (uk). They have put together similar gear based on Audio Note design and buy those parts that Audio Note offers to the market, but, that does not mean they are as good as the real deal.
They are affiliated with and have the full blessing of AN UK. The design is by Andy Grove, the PT & OPT’s are sourced from AN UK. The parts quality is excellent and it is in no way a second rate product. You even get a NOS Telefunken driver/splitter. The level 4 transformers are top quality AN C-Core.
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As mentioned above, Deja Vu Audio makes custom amps. These days, they focus on fairly expensive replica/rebuilds of Western Electric amps. They do get trade-ins of vintage tube amps as well as some of their older, and more affordable, past models. Most of those older amps are pushpull triode amps, though some are tetrode/pentode amps. As a Audio Note dealer, I am sure they can make good recommendations on suitable amps for the AN-K speakers.
There is an interesting builder named Tube Audio Labs that makes some very nice looking amps. I have not heard any of their builds, so I am going on the pictures and the kinds of amps they choose to clone--Korneff, Western Electric, etc. In other words, the builder copies good stuff.
http://tubeaudiolab.com/
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would Manley Mahi's be worthy of consideration? Both have the same power tubes (EL 84). Oto is 10W SET, Hahi is configurable to triode mode at 20W. So what's more important in considering amp/speaker matching? Type of power tube or configuration? Is there a concern regarding distortion at 20W? Any and all thoughts on this are welcome.
@scottya118 Although that speaker is an easy load for nearly any tube amplifier, I think you'll find that unless you are in a smaller room that its like a bit of power that a push pull amplifier provides, which will be very welcome- and less colored; more transparent. This is simply because at the power levels most SETs play, the distortion of a push pull amplifier will be dramatically lower, allowing you to hear into the rear of the sound stage with greater ease.
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I personally love NOS Vitamin Q 196P’s and use them in my own builds. However, I would not like to see other caps which sound fine, even outstanding to the majority of consumers precluded from consideration on the opinion of one person, hence my proffering an alternative viewpoint for consideration.
Peter Qvortrup’s Audio Note amps are not voiced specifically for Audionote caps, as many were designed when Jensen were their supplier, and these capacitors sound markedly different to those of current Audionote manufacture. Some were even originally supplied with ERO polyester (yes polyester) caps. Good capacitors sound good in these amps. Period.
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@david_ten Does Scott/Found Music have a website? A search just turned up your post and Mike's over on WB thanks.
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Thank you David. I'll look into that. -Scott
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@scottya118 I don’t know your budget or how flexible you are with it...so this may or may not apply. Member @jazdoc was incredibly happy with an EL 34 build by Scott Sheaffer / Found Music. I believe Scott is currently working on a new / different EL 34 build. If you are open to a bespoke, custom build to your specs and application...I suggest reaching out to him.
I was exposed to Scott’s work when I acquired Mike Lavigne’s ( @mikelavigne ) 2A3 monoblock build. I was so impressed, I went for an all out 2A3 effort in 2021. It is stellar.
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I will just say, as I have the same dealer as Larry, there is absolutely no agenda, Vu just likes what he likes. As far as caps go he's likely to use vintage caps as current AN caps. He's not telling anyone else not to used Mundorf or Duelund they're just not what he likes or recommends.
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HATES anything Mundorf. I have not done any serious comparisons myself, but he has, and does not like them in either amps or speaker crossovers. He also hates Duelunds
please don’t take this opinion as gospel. I would suggest that the dealer is out of line with about 95% of the rest of audiophilia and may be pushing an agenda.
Duelunds are widely regarded as the best caps out there (no affiliation).
just one opinion as to where Mundorfs and Duelunds lie in the food chain:
https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
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Thanks again for the responses Larry. Based on what I'm looking for, your comments only reinforce the gameplan to go with a pair of Empress' when circumstances allow me to come into possession. Take Care, -Scott
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Not that much to go on, but the safer bet would probably be the EL84 amp. My 6.5 watt Kageki (parallel 2a3 SET) amp is enough, for me, with my 99 db/w speakers, but, I don't play my music that loud and on some music, the amp does seem to loose a bit of steam (doesn't really distort, but it stops getting louder). My speakers are considerably more efficient than the AN-K speaker. The issue is whether you prefer the sound of the 2a3 when playing the vast majority of music, and if so, how much would you be willing to give up on the capability to play very loudly. I prioritize good play at very low volume level myself, and the Kagekis deliver on that score. For the record, I currently run a pushpull 349 amp that I actually prefer to the Kagekis in my current system; both are good, the 349 amp is a bit richer sounding and is a touch more dynamic.
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If you had to choose between a push-pull EL 84 at say 20W or an SET 2A3 say at 8W to push the K's what would you prefer?
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If you are talking about an AN Kit amp, I don't think they are affiliated with Audio Note (uk). They have put together similar gear based on Audio Note design and buy those parts that Audio Note offers to the market, but, that does not mean they are as good as the real deal. They may be a good bargain, but, that is not to say they are the same.
Still, I generally like good EL84-based amps because they are lively, and punchy without sounding hard and brittle. I prefer that tube over something like a KT88 or 6550, KT120 or KT150 or other more powerful tubes. Some EL 34 amps are decent, but, generally, I prefer 6L6 or KT 66 the most among pentode/tetrode tubes in common use. There are exotic types, like 350B and th3 349 that I like even more, but, those are extremely rare and expensive (I own a 349 pushpull amp that puts out a whopping 5.5 watts per channel).
Among low-powered triodes, my favorite is probably the 45, but, it is a very low-powered tube; that tube would be followed by the 2a3.
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Thanks Larry, I'm also intrigued the Level 4 EL 84 kit that's available. Seem's that might be a good match for the K's in a 30x12 room. I listen primarily 8-10 feet away with proper toe in. -Scott
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I've seen and heard the Backert gear at audio shows. It is hard to make a sonic evaluation of electronics at a show, but, I did like the very serious people designing and backing the product and I liked what I saw. You indeed should be looking at a power amp, and something from Audio Note is certainly a good place to look initially. While the K's are not in the extremely efficient category, they are fairly high in efficiency and are easy to drive and anything Audio Note offers should be in the running. I have not heard the Empress, but, I do own, and like very much, its sibling; I own Kageki monoblocs (parallel SET 2a3 amps). The Kageki's are slightly on the leaner sound side of the Audio Note family of amps, but they are among my favorites.
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Thanks Larry. My problem regarding OTO is that I have a Backert Labs preamp which I absolutely love and will not give up. I install the new cables when they arrive (see earlier post) and save up for a few years. I think I'll be on the lookout for a pair of Empress' or buy new when I can. -Scott
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I don't think you would go wrong with the choice of an OTO. As to changing coupling caps, this is a matter of personal taste, so be prepared to switch back if the new caps are not to your taste. My local Audio Note dealer, who also builds his own tube amps and linestages, HATES anything Mundorf. I have not done any serious comparisons myself, but he has, and does not like them in either amps or speaker crossovers. He also hates Duelunds. This is a matter of taste and system tuning, so don't expect any particular change to necessarily be an upgrade, regardless of price and reputation.
Certainly upgraded Audio Note parts should be considered because their gear is voice for these components. This same dealer has Audio Note parts lying around that are probably worth a small fortune. Many years ago, I asked about some caps on a shelf and was informed that they were silver foil Audio Note caps that cost north of $1,000 each.
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Haven’t heard the Mahi’s so I can’t comment on them. The OTO is an integrated vs the Manley so you’d need a preamp. Music Reference makes a fine EL84 amp as well. Audio Note kits is another great option. I’ve heard the OTO AN K’s many times, wattage is not an issue. My OTO SE drove my E’s with no issues.
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Thanks Pesky. I've soldered before and installed a new audio system in the wife's '91 Miata two summers ago. So something to definitely consider. -Scott
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several years ago I built an Audio Note L1 EL84 pp kit amp for a friend and was most impressed with the outcome. They now have a V2 listed with Mundorf silver/gold coupling caps for $1,100. This is a steal.
I can honestly say that this would likely demolish anything you are going to find at anything near the price point for driving the K’s (I own a pair of Snell K’s on which the AN’s were based). There is a level 4 version for $2,650, $2850-$3,100 with phono. But the base model sounds simply wonderful and will rock da house if need be. Into K’s it’s not second rate wrt SET’s (I build them) and gives very good account at low vols. It’s swings and roundabouts really.
If you can find a friend who is handy with a soldering iron I would say this is definitely the way to go for the lower price range. If you have a larger budget, then obviously I would advise you to broaden your search, but still not discount the L1.
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I have not heard a direct comparison between the two (although I’ve heard both), and either would make a fine choice. The Oto is a terrific sounding amp that works well with any reasonably efficient speakers. Of course it works well with the AN-K.
i would expect a lot of other tube amps would sound fine too. I am partial to 6L6 or KT 66 amps. I particularly like the Synthesis A40 (60 wpc KT 66 amp), which comes with a good built in DAC and remote control (a big plus to me).
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Here's a question in regards to markhh2's comment: If the Oto is the bomb (which I do not disagree with. I've heard the same comment from another source) for matching with K's, would Manley Mahi's be worthy of consideration? Both have the same power tubes (EL 84). Oto is 10W SET, Hahi is configurable to triode mode at 20W. So what's more important in considering amp/speaker matching? Type of power tube or configuration? Is there a concern regarding distortion at 20W? Any and all thoughts on this are welcome.
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